Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt17.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1MB

Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 19:05:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 84

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
writes:

>I think *nothing* happened at Roswell.

Flatly wrong.  *Something* happened.  Whether it's a UFO crash or not is
another story.

> I'll quote Carl Sagan, who said "Remarkable claims require remarkable
> proofs".

Maybe. There's a slight problem with that in this case though.

>But if you tell
>me the Earth is being visited by beings from another world, I'm going to
>require good proof before I'll believe that beause it is very remarkable, and
>the consequences of believing it if it's untrue are large.

Why?  Are you going to turn into a different person or get thrown into an
insane asylum?  I doubt *anyone* could tell you believed it if you didn't
want them to.

>I'll also quote
>a legal principle: Habeas Corpus. It means "you should have the body", and
>is broadly interpreted to require proof before imprisoning someone.  All the
>"evidence" of extraterrestrial spacecraft is just talk;  there a lots of
>people who *say* they've seen one or even flown in one, who *say* that the
>feds have a hanger full of them somewhere, who *say* they've held peices of
>wrecked spaceships in their hand, but it's all just talk.

Stick to the allegations of Roswell:  the case DOES NOT involve a "hanger
full of them somewhere" nor people saying they've flown in one.  Erect a
straw man and knock it down?  Those points have nothing to do with this
case.

Habeus Corpus also requires that it be illegal to withold evidence.  In the
Roswell case, all physical evidence is (alledgedly) being withheld by the
government.  The only thing that remains is "just talk."  And that "talk"
says there *used* to be physical evidence.

>There has never
>been a systematic, scientific, public study of an ET or a ship, never so much
>as one clear, unambiguous picture of one, never an interview with one on the
>Carson show.

You got the time (money) for the type of investigation you want?  There's
been several private investigations of Roswell and guess what?  They've
all found pretty much the same thing (with slight differences in details).

Seems to me a race with capabilities of interstellar travel could do a darn
good job of hiding from Joe Schmoe and his 35 mm.  When portable home Radar
becomes cheap enough, then complain.

Johnny Carson spends too much time booking country singers to spend time
with ET's.

>Habeas Corpus, dudes!

Don't call me dude.  :-)

>Maybe it's true that the place is thick
>with Martians abducting folks, chopping up cows, and doodling in the winter
>wheat in England.  Maybe it's true that the Feds are covering the whole thing
>up.  But for me, I'm going to withhold my belief until I see some evidence
>other than anecdotes and wishful thinking.

Don't confuse the issue of Roswell with claims made by UFO-nuts that explain
everything they don't understand as coming from the bay of a mother-ship from
some distant star system.  Roswell isn't all that unusual if you believe there
is highly intelligent life on other planets.  Certainly, a UFO crash is
unusual, but other than that, there's no hocus-pocus cattle mutilations
or cities dissappearing.  Even government cover-ups aren't unusual.

I still have doubts about a UFO crash in Roswell,
but the fact that there's little solid evidence isn't what bothers me.
What really bothers me about it is the fact that it could possibly be
explained as a Fugo balloon bomb.  However, I don't think this is any more
*likely* a story, being that it was a full two years after WWII.
Further, the fact that the government hasn't *shown* the remains of a Fugo
in the last 40 years to explain Roswell raises a big doubt in my mind.


--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack
Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 17:10:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1643 alt.paranormal:2433 sci.skeptic:13650 alt.slack:955

[e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>
>    (Funky Speaking)
>
> As we leave the mighty Jupiter, we come upon Saturn.  This is a beautiful
> planet with a beautiful ring constructed of solid plutonium.  The peoples of
> Saturn are true party pigs, they bring us to their plush houses filled
> with shag carpet and Greek plaster statues.  For many centuries the Saturnians
> have been living in a state of inebriation, for they are the mightiest party
> pigs this side of the Rigelan empire.  They can teach us much about having
> a good time.  Trying to relocate to this beer bucket is difficult, for the
> remaining real estate has been taken up by strip joints and discos.  The
> Saturnians are gracious hosts though, filling our space junket with the
> finest Nitrous Oxide Beer kegs.
>
> I will leave you with this saying: A beer in the hand is better than a beer in
> the beer case.
>
> Standard Disclaimer.
>
> Jon

Bah!  An obvious forgery.  Not one spelling error in the entire
post.  Furthermore, this Mountebank left spaces between the
Blather, the Blither, and the Disclaimer portions of the post.

We JOHNFW@SLACVM followers will never fall for such a childish
attempt to discredit the Prophet of Mon-Kee!

On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on
the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he
doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is
sincere.  Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears
the voices coming out of his radio?

And I was just starting to go for the prankster theory.
--
*Eric Shafto             * How many loved your moments of glad grace,     *
*Institute for the       * And loved your beauty with love false or true, *
*    Learning Sciences   * One man loved the pilgrim soul in you,         *
*Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face;   *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!covpoly!cck.cov.ac.uk!unreplyable!garbage
From: [e-mail] (the Crisco Kid)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples
Message-ID: <^VQ}{[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 18:50:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
>in sleep. Likewise in Cathy Davies case (from Budd Hopkins book Intruders)
>she seems to be abducted when gets the compulsion to visit the local
>late night store to buy Coke or snacks. She describes implants inserted
>up her nose.

This does sound awfully like Philip Glass' show "1000 Airplanes on the
roof".  Any connexion?

                        Kay
--
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry Poly, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f- t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: [phone] (work) [phone] (home) |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!spies!blake
From: [e-mail] (Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 07:42:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Spies in the wire, [phone]
Lines: 46
Nntp-Posting-Host: doomsday.spies.com

[e-mail] (Christopher J. Shields) writes:

> Whoa! Maybe I'm outta line here but people have been posting stuff that
> I just can't agree with...
>
> 1> "Communion" as a movie SUCKED cinematography-wise and somewhat story
> wise. Yes it was very much "here's my story, take it or leave it", But
> Peter Weller did a really lousy job and I didn't get the ending ( no,
> not the part about Strieber communicating with the aliens, the part with
> the masks and the Grey who takes half his face off, What the Fuck? ). I
> felt the book was better and that Transformation was more informative.
>
> 2> Strieber had an MRI .....NOT a Cat Scan like people have been saying.
> This was reported in a year-old or so issue of OMNI ( I can't remember
> the date but I do remember the article ) A white spot showed up on his
> MRI around the area of his optic nerve. This could be an alien implant
> or it could be an air bubble. In the movie the needle was inserted in
> his ear yet in the book it was inserted into his left nostril. The book
> makes more sense. Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni
> that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that
> Strieber claims to have.
>
> 3> If space is infinite what the fuck makes us the only/most advanced
> intellegence in the universe? NOT!
>
> 4> THEY haven't disproved alien intellegence exsists.
>
> Just kinda ina bitchy mood, comments by e-mail please, sorry about
> typos, all flames ignored, have a nice day......
>
> Peace,
>
> c.shields

  You have got your facts WRONG, Mr. Shields. At least as far as the implant
thingy goes. As for the cinematography, that's your opinion. The movie
wasn't THAT bad, but it could have used improvement.
  Anyway, the BOOK had the needle being inserted BEHIND his ear, and so did
the movie... they were consistent on that point.
  Where did you get that about it being inserted into his nostril OR his
ear? Are you feeling all right?

--
Sean R. Lynch        | Internet:              Blake | "Standard by twelve,
13665 Long Ridge Rd. | [e-mail] | Mister Crusher."
Los Gatos, CA 95030  | Home Phone:   [phone] | Blake is innocent!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 20:19:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Joe Mastroianni
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1646 alt.conspiracy:6553


  This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer
book form with better character development. It is probably best read
on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some
exotic Asian destination.

 Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There
was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may
even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version.

 If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you.

 Joe



--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!noc.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uvaarpa!murdoch!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Robert O. Anderson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 18:44:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 32
Ireallyam: roa

=>
=>>From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell) writes:

        [stuff deleted]

=>
=>>In my opinion, however, it was a UFO.
=> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
=>
=>        Let me get this straight, if the government says it's a UFO,
=>then it MUST BE a UFO. If they say it's a Fugo, then they're LYING !!

>It's easy to fabricate a story about a Fugo.  The government has several
>samples of them (and displays them occasionally).  How many ET craft
>have you seen in the Smithsonian?  In other words, you'll *never* settle
>the argument by providing evidence that it was a ballon bomb.


>Could you explain what my being at Oakland University in Rochester in Oakland
>county, Michigan reveals to you?  How old are you, Bobby?  Just learning
>to type?


>Only *one* Bobby in all of Virginia?  It's a good thing.


        Well, you really got me that time, Dan. My age?? I'm probably
older than you think. UFOs ?? Like the old fellow says, "You'd have to
show me one!" and then there's something about 'anything that you read
and only half of what you see'.

Bobby
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Communion question
Keywords: communion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 20:27:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Joe Mastroianni
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Blake) writes:
>[e-mail] (Juice S. Aaron) writes:
>
>>
>> A few months ago I picked up and read the vast majority of
>> the book called Communion.  What the book had to say
>> was quite interesting and sometimes somewhat shocking

[I deleted lots and lots of stuff]

 I thought the movie was pretty lame. The book was downright scary. The
movie was like something I would go to see at a drive-in with my
girlfriend and watch with one eye and the volume turned off. Guess Im old.
I haven't seen very many drive-ins around these days.

  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!harvey
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack
Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 21:57:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1649 alt.paranormal:2435 sci.skeptic:13652 alt.slack:959

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Shafto) says:
>
>[e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>>
>>    (Funky Speaking)
>>
>> As we leave the mighty Jupiter, we come upon Saturn.  This is a beautiful
>> planet with a beautiful ring constructed of solid plutonium.  The peoples of
>> Saturn are true party pigs, they bring us to their plush houses filled
>> with shag carpet and Greek plaster statues.  For many centuries the         s
>Saturnian
>> have been living in a state of inebriation, for they are the mightiest party
>> pigs this side of the Rigelan empire.  They can teach us much about having
>> a good time.  Trying to relocate to this beer bucket is difficult, for the
>> remaining real estate has been taken up by strip joints and discos.  The
>> Saturnians are gracious hosts though, filling our space junket with the
>> finest Nitrous Oxide Beer kegs.
>>
>> I will leave you with this saying: A beer in the hand is better than a beer n
>i
>> the beer case.
>>
>> Standard Disclaimer.
>>
>> Jon
>
>Bah!  An obvious forgery.  Not one spelling error in the entire
>post.  Furthermore, this Mountebank left spaces between the
>Blather, the Blither, and the Disclaimer portions of the post.
>
>We JOHNFW@SLACVM followers will never fall for such a childish
>attempt to discredit the Prophet of Mon-Kee!
>
>On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on
>the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he
>doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is
>sincere.  Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears
>the voices coming out of his radio?

I also hear voices coming out of my radio.

cornered coworker of JFW
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ed_l1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Ansr how life got on Earth.(+anthro+psi)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 21:18:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 90
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1650 sci.skeptic:13654 alt.paranormal:2437

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Josh Vander Berg) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Antti Siivonen) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Josh Vander Berg) writes:
>>
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>>In my opinion one of the reasons why science has a hard time finding
>>>>the missing link and how man evolved on earth is that man is not
>>>>native of this planet but was brought or came here from other planets
>>
>>>Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact.  If man was
>>>brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his
>>>genome with chimps?  Answer:  He EVOLVED from monkeys.  The reason they
>>>can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years
>>>ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays.  I
>>>suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here
>>>genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes.  Further and further
>>>into fantasy we tread....

Just a point of accuracy, we did not evolve from monkeys.  both monkeys
(a fully modern primate) and ourselves evolved from a common primate
ancestor.  It's quite a different thing.

We have actually very few fossils, but then we were not in those days the
dominant species on Earth.  The fossils we do have give a relatively
complete picture going back almost 4 million years, however, to a form
which although it walked upright had a brain about the size of a chimp.
Clearly a transitional form.

Since that time there have been a series of leaps and plateaus in our
(human) evolution.  This is not inconsistant with evolution theory.
A successful mutation will establish itself quite rapidly, but a
successful mutation is not a common thing.

>>
>>    The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are
>>    no such links at all. A lot of skeletons of apes and people have been
>>        found, but no 'links' between them, we must come to a conclusion that,
>>    simply, there are no such links.
>>
>>                Andreas
>>

Oh?  What about H.S. Neanderthal?  Human or ape?  Apply the same question
to Homo Erectus, Homo habilis, Australopithecus Africanus, A. Afarensis....
A Afarensis, had some human and some ape characteristics, and more ape, perhaps.
If there is a gap it is in the Miocene, between earlier forms and A. Afar.
We have some Ramapithecines and Sivapithecines, but the connection is not
yet considered very solid.  It is likely there that the split occurred.
there were lots of "apes" in the Miocene, and Ram of Siv are just the
best candidates for our ancestor in that time period.

Again: MODERN HUMANS HAVE A RELATIVELY CLEAR ANCESTRY GOING BACK 4 MILLION YRS!

> Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely
> non-human and non-ape, but primates.  But then again, I guess all of the
> paleontologists(sp?) are wrong, and you are right.  I believe that the
> missing link refers to a link between our proto-human ancestors and "apes".
> To often people use the "missing link" to totally discount evolution.  This
> is wrong,  looking at one gap in the fossil record does not disprove the
> large body of fossil evidence which shows human's evolution from lower
> primates.

Well said.

>
> Also, this attitude "the reason we have never found it is because it does
> not exist" I find to be totally repugnant.  By this logic, the reason we
> have never seen an atom is because they don't exist,  the reason we have
> never seen an electron is because it doesn't exist.
> This viewpoint, aside from being incredible narrow minded,
> ignores the fact that the existence of these things can be infered from
> other directly observable evidence.  We know there are electrons because we
> observe phenomenon which can only by explained by the invention of an
> electron "model".  We also know that the missing link must somehow exist,
> and can infer quite alot about what the missing link must be like because of
> the body of fossil evidence surrounding this "gap".

Oh well, while I am here I might as well apply this same model to ESP, or
PSI phenomenon.
Hundreds of years of thousands of people reporting occurrances of this
nature must mean that something is going on.

--
***************************************************************************
*  Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A.        *
*  Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, etc.  -*-  UUCP%"[e-mail]"   *
*  Disclaimer: Opinions Copyright 1991 Ed L'Esperance.     HANDS OFF!     *
*  Opinion #1: "Are you trying to tell me that these people are SERIOUS?" *
*  #2: "What do you mean 'just opinions?' -- that's all anyone has!"      *
***************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack
Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 01:23:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back^H^H^H^H^HSlack Bay)
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1651 alt.paranormal:2438 sci.skeptic:13657 alt.slack:960

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on
>>the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he
>>doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is
>>sincere.  Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears
>>the voices coming out of his radio?
>I also hear voices coming out of my radio.
>cornered coworker of JFW
And I also hear the voices coming out of your radio all the way over on
the East Coast!
I'd like to leave you with this saying: "You're Allowed!"
Standard Kibo. Disclaimer. Standard SLACk linespacing. I have to go now,
the radio just told me to kill my TV set and then join the New Kids on
the Block.

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         and typeface designer.
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!rex!samsung!know!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!sics.se!psm
From: [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <<<<Great Pyramid.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jul 91 09:28:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Lines: 31
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 24 Jul 91 05: 45:06 GMT

>>>>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Doc O'Leary) writes:

oleary> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes, among other things:

>  Greeting in the "Light of Our Infinite  One.  I AM Kla-La.  In
>speaking at this time, we deal with the subject of your Great Pyramid.
>In the beginning, approximately 45,600 years before your Christ, the
>Galactic Survey  ships of the Confederation were to establish an out-
>post and beacon upon your planet earth.

oleary> <Yawn>

oleary> The first pyramid-like structure was built circa 2,800 B.C. and resembled the
oleary> Great Ziggurat at Ur (stepped).  The Great Pyramid at Giza was constructed
oleary> some two hundred years later, making your claim only, oh, 43,000 years out
oleary> of wack.

oleary>          ---------   Doc

oleary> P.S.: I particularly liked the part about the stones being "cut and sliced
oleary>       and shaped . . . to infinite dimensions."  I'll be giggling over it
oleary>       for the rest of the week :-).

Actually, the time (ca 2700 BC) is only inferred from the hieroglyphs on
the nearby burial temples. There are no inscriptions or remains in the Great
Pyramid itself that indicate its age. I'm certainly no adherent to the
most paranormal flavours, but I'm surprised that no Pyramid-fan ever
makes use of this fact.

Peter Magnusson
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!spies!blake
From: [e-mail] (Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ha!
Keywords: Ha!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 20:24:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Spies in the wire, [phone]
Lines: 131
Nntp-Posting-Host: doomsday.spies.com

Finally! Somebody with the guts to express a real opinion! I just HAVE to
follow up on this one.

Shawn Beltz writes:

> I beleive the earth has been visited by other intelligent races...  But
> that's an OPINION.  Here's another opinion:

A perfectly valid opinion, considering the number of accounts of sightings
over the ages.

>  For as many years as there have been human beings, there has been some
> form or religion.  All these religions can be summed up in one phrase,
> "Safety in Numbers"..  We were afraid of change, afraid of the unknown.

I have to disagree with this one. Mister Beltz starts his account a bit too
late. After all, religion was around long before that, and started as an
explanation of the unexplainable. "Safety in numbers" coule NOT have come
about until the human population increased.

As for "fear of the unknown", Mister Beltz makes human history seem like an
era of fear. Though many religions capitalize on fear, that is certainly not
their basis. I seriously doubt if preachers or teachers were more scared
than peasants or serfs, certainly not the high priests and priestesses of
earlier times.

> ...[LINES DELETED]...

>  Different religions evolved when the original ones became obsolete in
> covering the truth.  Nowadays, religion, beleif groups, and culture have
> totally covered up these visits, to the point where people who have the
> potential to learn and be aware of all around them ignore even the
> simplest of facts, because they don't fit into their critereon of reality.

Here you make it look like religion is all lies designed to cover the truth.
Why should people fear the truth that much? Isn't it more probable that the
leaders of these different religions were like the rest of us, with egos,
arrogance, and all our other human drawbacks? Wow! What a concept! That the
more arrogant of them tried the hardest to keep change from entering their
belief system, from admitting that they were wrong. Wars develop over this,.

>  We have to cut through the religion, and soon.  We have to look through
> the myth, and realize that the same voice has been muffled all through our
> history!  If you are only willing to open your eyes, you will see.  There
> is a new breed in the young people today.  A select few have been able to
> realize that we have to look at things truly objectively.  You cannot
> classify something totally unexplicable, yet that is what we have been
> doing since our creation.  If there are any other civilizations out there,
> there is no proof they have done any better than us.  If you are familiar
> with communion, or stories of the greys and blonds and the other visitors,
> you will understand that even though they hold a power over us (seemingly)
>  there is no reason why we cannot stop that.  again, it's our subconcious
> training, our religion and superstition that holds us back.  You are the
> only one that can make decisions and observe and reason.  We have become
> lazy.  Technology has made us lazy.  When I was young, I was extremely
> bright and interested in all of the sciences.  I still am, but there is
> now a conflict inside of me.  I beleive that the human mind is capable of
> anything, even without tools and science, yet on the other hand I have a
> love for science and creation.  I beleive science can explain everything,
> if we make science fit the truth, not bend the truth to fit science.  If
> anyone is listening out there, anyone who has waded through tons of
> irrelevant BS and lies, and alot of the truth and observations by other
> people who have experienced anything strange, listen to this.  Our science
> has helped us evolve, and our curiousity has led us to great hights, but
> the time has come to accept the world as it is.  Some people go to work
> with the aim of proving that their studies support their religion.  Others
> go out to disprove others theories and improve their own.  But we have to
> set out to seek the truth simply for the fact that it is the truth.  We
> have to accept the universe as it is, unbiased and ready to learn things
> we may not think we are ready for.  We have to be ready to evolve.  For a
> while now humans have been devolving.  Our machines and medicine and some
>  of our technology have just made it more difficult to realize our
> potential.  Everything we have developed so far has for the most part been
> to cure us of the side effects of our false beliefs.  Our religion has
> taught us to mourn death, so we develop medicine to stop people from
> dying.  Belief has made us weak.  We look for our answers in the very same
> place we find our problems.  We have pollution from industry and
> carelessness, so we look to further industry and make it easier to not
> pollute.  So now instead of thinking that we must save the enviornment,
> people just know they can get paid to recycle, and get rewarded for
> recycling paper plates, when they needn't use them at all.  One of the
> things in religion I beleive is the most ignorant is the coming of the
> Antichrist.  The antichrist, I suggest, is change.  Radical, permanent
> change that religion is afraid of.  Change that will make all of our
> accomplishments useless.  It's when brimstone falls from the sky, that
> reality aw we blindly perceive it will be wiped away, and we'll have to
> look at the blinding, radiant truth of it all.  The antichrist is change,
> it's the turning away from religion and towards the truth.  When we can
> look right into our myth and our history, and realize that we were wrong.
> When we can admit we were wrong, then we can go forward.  Sort of like
> accepting our mistakes and starting anew.  For some people, the brimstone
> will fall, and the fires of hell will burn them, and they will hallucinate
> that they are going to wherever there religion tells them they will.  But
> maybe us few who can change will see this "End" for what it really is, a
> new beginning.  Perhaps we will be able to witness the birth of a whole
> new world, a whole new life, a whole new reality.

Ok, you sound like a preacher here.
Religion is NOT a conspiracy, and science can NOT explain everything, that
much is obvious. Science is as much a religion as all the other faiths, and
scientists have the same arrogance as the preachers. Look at people like Joe
Newman, who built a motor which could supposedly run indefinitely on a dead
battery, but was unwilling to make any changes to the theory that he
developed around the motor.
  Science is simply the belief that one can figure out anything, provided
they get enough information. It says nothing about perspective, and is very
reliant on the interpretation of the data.

Mister Beltz blames technology for our growing laziness, and says we're
afraid of change. Well, considering our rate of development, it seems we're
not THAT afraid.

Science is as much to blame for arrogance and unwillingness to change as
religion, though science happens to exist in an era of pressure for
development of new ideas, DRIVEN by the very engine of capitalism that
Mister Beltz criticizes.

The problem here is perspective. We're stuck down in this mess, and refuse
to see over it. I say this from experience. One just has to see that NO,
everything CAN'T be explained, at least not now. There are some concepts in
the world that are simply ABSTRACT... (Wow, what a concept!) And theories
are MODELS, not explanations. None of them will be complete, ever. But life
is working toward a closer model. All the different fields of study are
closer than one might think, and the distinctions between them are fuzzy.

Just remember: The universe is made of fuzz, mostly satchel lint.

--
Sean R. Lynch        | Internet:              Blake | "Standard by twelve,
13665 Long Ridge Rd. | [e-mail] | Mister Crusher."
Los Gatos, CA 95030  | Home Phone:   [phone] | Blake is innocent!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!clarkbr
From: [e-mail] (CLARK BRIAN R)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OH Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 06:44:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
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Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu



       I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would
    like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen.
    How can we assess the credibility of UFO information?  The OH Krill
    file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the
    UFO community; for what reasons is this so?  How can the would-be
    investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit?

       Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would
    help the rest of us by sharing their experience.  Or is there no way of
    avoiding the dis-information?  Don, you have the floor...

    That's my two-cents worth.  Spell-checked and everything.

    Brian


--
    "Humor is the contemplation of the finite from the point of view of the
    infinite."  - Christian Morgenstern  (1871-1914)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!mcorbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Belgium UFO (Long)
Keywords: Belgium UFO ParaNet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 13:27:31 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Paranet Information Service, Denver, Co.
Lines: 868
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13664 alt.alien.visitors:1655 alt.paranormal:2440


This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
You may freely distribute this file as long as this header
remains intact.
Date Prepared:  August 8, 1991
Contributed by:  Center for UFO Studies/Mark Rodeghier
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0172
or
FidoNet 1:104/422
Internet [e-mail]
===========================================================
(C) 1991 by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies.  Reprinted
on  ParaNet with permission.  Excerpted from the  IUR,  May/June,
1991; Volume 16, Number 3.  This header must not be removed  from
this file.
============================================================

THE BELGIAN SIGHTINGS

by Auguste Meessen

-  -  Auguste  Meessen is professor of physics  at  the  Catholic
University of Louvain. This article, which first appeared in  the
November  1990 issue of Inforespace, is reprinted by  permission.
It  was translated by Andrea Donderi, Mark Rodeghier, and  W.  D.
Milner.
=================================================================
     The sightings that occurred in Belgium between November 1989
and  June 1990 have given us an impressive body of new  data.  We
have  even  been  able  to study in  detail  material  from  both
military and civilian ground radar screens. Moreover, an in-depth
examination of on-board radar data from one of the F-16s sent  up
by  the Belgian Air Force during the night of March 30-31,  1990,
is currently under way. As far as I know, this is the first  such
opportunity  in the world, but much remains to be done.  I  shall
therefore only give an overview of this research. I shall outline
what we are doing and briefly describe our methods.
     I  shall  also  include  some  remarks  on  the  unwarranted
generalizations  that are still too frequently encountered  (from
skeptics)  and  on the reactions of eyewitnesses in  the  current
socio-psychological climate in European ufology. Finally, I shall
present  a few reports of sightings made in Belgium  and  abroad.
One  case in particular, the enormous lozenge-shaped object  that
flew over the outskirts of the town of Eupen on December 1, 1989,
is  representative  of  the quality and  importance  of  the  new
information. In assessing reports it is important to be aware  of
what has been happening in other countries, so I shall include  a
few  foreign cases that suggest the wave of sightings may not  be
over.

Ground investigations

     At  the  beginning  of December 1989  I  joined  the  SOBEPS
(Societe Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux) investigation. It
was  vital to familiarize myself personally with the  number  and
quality   of  the  eyewitness  reports.  I  concentrated   almost
exclusively on the Eupen region, of which I am a native. I  hoped
that my fluency in German and my profession as a physicist  would
help   loosen   people's  tongues.  I  have   noted   that   many
eyewitnesses,  and  particularly  the  most  reliable  ones  with
important social responsibilities, are reluctant to discuss  what
they   have  seen  because  of   irrational   socio-psychological
pressures.
     The evening of November 29, 1989, was decisive, because  two
Eupen  police officers had the courage to describe on  television
the UFO they had painstakingly observed. There were several other
sightings  that same day. I shall be compiling a list of them  in
the book that SOBEPS is planning to publish. I have discovered  a
series  of eyewitness accounts that form a coherent  sequence  in
time  and  space that day. The sightings made by Mr. J  (more  on
which  later)  provide one example of what can  be  learned  from
these  witnesses. In my opinion, data of these kinds, when  taken
together  with  the  whole body of sightings  worldwide,  pose  a
challenge  to  the scientific community and to  every  thoughtful
person.
     Journalists  have had an especially important role. Some  of
them  have performed their work conscientiously, but others  were
simply seeking sensational stories. Yet more felt obliged to lead
a personal crusade against the gathering of eyewitness reports. I
will cite just one example whose immediate effects I observed.
     A few days after December 18, 1989, a gendarme in the  Eupen
area  refused  to tell me what he had seen, probably  because  on
that  date  a local daily paper had published  an  article  which
asserted that the "most plausible explanation" for UFO  sightings
was  that the U. S. Air Force was secretly testing F-117A  planes
over  Belgium.  This  article  was  preceded  by  the  impressive
headline  "Explanation  from  Washington,"  and  the   subheading
referred  to a "hysteria" of UFO sightings. I was sent a copy  of
this paper the same day and immediately inquired into the matter,
since these stories also form an aspect of the UFO phenomenon.
     It  turned out that the "explanation" was only  speculation,
put forward by the Flemish paper Het Laatste Nieuws. I phoned the
journalist who wrote the article that triggered off a rumor which
is  still causing much ink to be spilt. He explained that he  had
just  read  an article on the F-117A and wished to pass  on  such
information to his readers. To make his article more interesting,
he  had suggested (gratuitously, with no reference to the  actual
sightings) that there might be a possible connection with  recent
sightings  in  Belgium. In the meantime, I had learned  from  Lt.
Col.  De Brouwer, Chief of Operations of the Belgian  Air  Force,
that  the  Air  Force had sought information  from  the  American
Embassy  to help them explain the reports. This should  not  have
been necessary if the sightings were caused by secret  exercises,
as  De  Brouwer routinely would have been informed  of  any  such
overflights.  Instead,  he took the trouble  to  secure  accurate
information  about what the many Belgian eyewitnesses had  really
seen.
     Learning  that  an official American disclaimer  was  to  be
published, I telephoned the Eupen journalist to tell him the news
and to ask him to publish a correction as soon as possible.  When
I asked him why he had spoken of "an explanation from Washington"
and  characterized  the eyewitness accounts of  local  people  as
"hysterical " he responded, "I am against all that." I appreciate
his  candor,  but  that  does not  square  with  the  regard  for
objectivity one expects of journalists. Such attitudes constitute
disinformation and serve to dissuade eyewitnesses; they make  the
search for truth more difficult.

The search for more objective information

     Having convinced myself of the reality and importance of the
wave  of UFO sightings in our country, I concluded that it  would
have  been  scientifically  irresponsible  to  ignore  this  wave
without  trying to find out what had turned up on  our  country's
radar screens. I did not know how to gain access to the data, but
I felt that reason would eventually prevail. Since early December
1989  I  had  been in contact with Lt. Col.  De  Brouwer  at  the
Headquarters of the Belgian Air Force, requesting that any  radar
documentation  be  preserved  for a  thorough  scientific  study.
Shortly afterwards I sent a similar written request to Guy Coeme,
Minister of National Defense.
     I also met the head of the air traffic control at  Zaventem,
the  Brussels  airport.  I learned that  he  and  his  associates
preserve  recordings of radar data for several weeks on  magnetic
tape  in  the event of any inquiries relating to  air  safety.  I
therefore  addressed a written request to Mr. Vandenbroucke,  the
General Manager of the Airlines Administration, for permission to
videotape   certain  excerpts.  These  would  be  restricted   to
sequences  selected on the basis of the number of  fairly  close-
range and reliable UFO sightings. The goal was to verify  whether
there  had been any suspicious radar traces before or  after  the
sighting  times,  given that the UFOs were  doubtless  below  the
radar coverage at the time of very low-altitude sightings.
     Although  the response was delayed, a call  to  Vanenbroucke
brought immediate cooperation. I convey my warm thanks to him and
to  the Chief Engineer and the technical radar personnel  of  our
national  airport  for  their  effective  support,  which  proved
useful. In consequence I have been able to film and analyze  more
than 180 hours of data from the Bertem radar installation,  which
serves Zaventem airport. In brief, two surprising and significant
discoveries  emerged  from this material. I shall  describe  them
later. One of these discoveries concerned the fact that echoes of
unidentified  origin  often moved along  linear  trajectories  of
limited length. This perplexed me. I continued to collect as many
data  as possible, refusing to adopt any  particular  hypothesis.
Furthermore, it was vital to analyze these data quickly so that I
could  assimilate their essential characteristics  and  determine
what was worth studying more closely. In fact, I was involved  in
a race against time, since the magnetic tapes were retained  only
for a few weeks. Any potentially important material that I failed
to save would be lost forever.
     I   also  hoped  to  gain  access  to  the  military   radar
documentation,  although I knew this would be more difficult.  An
increasingly  close  and productive collaboration  had  developed
with  Lt. Col. De Brouwer and with Lt. Col. Billen, Chief of  the
Glons radar installation. They shared my profound conviction that
an in-depth study was required, both to understand better the UFO
phenomenon and to elucidate the mysterious phenomenon that I  had
discovered, probably of atmospheric origin.
     During  this stage of the investigation an  important  event
occurred.  I knew that the Belgian Air Force planned to  scramble
F-16  fighters  in  cases where UFO sightings  were  reported  by
reliable  eyewitnesses  with  additional  confirmation  by  other
evidence.  These  conditions seemed to have been met  during  the
night  of March 30-31, 1990. Although I was notified at an  early
stage,  I had to wait for the Air Force's preliminary  evaluation
of the data before learning anything more.
     For  my part, I kept Lt. Col. De Brouwer informed  about  my
research on the data from the Bertem radar. He saw the benefit of
checking  these  data against those from the  military  radar  at
Semmerzake.  I was accordingly authorized to go there and  obtain
extracts  from these tapes. The information regarding the  events
of  the night of March 30-31 remained inaccessible since  an  Air
Force investigation was underway, but we were making progress all
the  same.  The Semmerzake data were more accurate  and  detailed
than those I already had.
     Consequently,  I  was  able to compare  the  data  from  the
Semmerzake military radar with those from the Bertem civil radar,
whose echoes are instantaneously transmitted to Semmerzake.  They
are   subject   to   even  less  filtering  than   on   the   air
controllers' screens at Zaventem airport. I could thus  establish
the  coordinates  and other characteristics  of  each  individual
echo.  The  analysis  was  laborious  but  made  it  possible  to
decisively  confirm  the preliminary conclusions drawn  from  the
video films taken at Zaventem.
     After  the release of the Air Force report in the summer  of
1990, there were irrational reactions on the part of some  French
media.   Lt.  Col.  De  Brouwer  responded  by   supplying   more
information,  hoping to demonstrate that the situation  was  more
complex  and  better documented than many supposed, and  that  it
merited  further analysis. He resolutely followed an  open-minded
policy.  Some  journalists had labeled the  military  "The  Great
Mute"; by contrast, Lt. Col. De Brouwer maintained that "we  have
nothing to hide in this matter." I can attest to his deep honesty
and courage.
     After  talking  with a reporter from Paris  Match  (July  5,
1990,  issue), De Brouwer also allowed some members of SOBEPS  to
see an extract from the video film of the on-board radar from one
of  the  F-16s. The series of photos we were authorized  to  take
enabled me to make a preliminary assessment, and I realized  then
the   extremely  strange  nature  of  these  data.  Having   made
considerable  headway in interpreting some of the  initial  radar
data,  1 could see that the same explanation would not  work  for
these astonishing observations.
     In  order to go further, I needed the express permission  of
the  Minister of National Defense. Since my written  request  had
met with no response, probably because of bureaucratic inertia, I
decided  to telephone the Minister, Guy Coeme. His  response  was
almost  immediate: "I believe in openness." This was, I think,  a
historic attitude. In any event, it was an exemplary action, from
which other countries will soon, I hope, draw inspiration.
    After  this everything went like clockwork, albeit one  whose
hands  moved slowly. For instance, I received the data  from  the
Glons radar for the main events of March 30-31, 1990, on November
2, fully seven months later. The appropriate permissions had  all
been  granted,  but other military missions (in  particular,  the
Gulf  crisis  and  the intervention in  Rwanda)  took  precedence
compared  to  UFO  investigations. Still, there  can  be  a  real
advantage  to  letting  ideas  settle for  a  while.  At  present
thorough  studies are being undertaken in complete  collaboration
with an officer-engineer of the Belgian Air Force. I do not  wish
to  name  him  so  as to prevent him  from  being  besieged  with
inquiries.  The  conclusions of our study will be  published  but
only when this can be done in a responsible manner.

The fundamental results

     Almost  continually, radar screens show sporadic echoes  not
correlated  with  aircraft.  Radar operators  call  these  echoes
"angels"as  if  they  were  pure spirits.  For  them  the  echoes
constitute annoying "noise" and are ignored as much as  possible.
A priori they could just as easily be UFOs as natural  phenomena.
They  appear  only  occasionally, all over  the  screen.  An  air
traffic  controller cannot afford to waste time and attention  on
them. When I systematically recorded the positions in which these
"angels"  appeared,  however, I noted that they  often  moved  in
practically  straight  lines.  I have labeled  this  the  "flying
angels effect."
    The average speed of this movement is low relative to that of
aircraft (about 50 km/h).  There are random fluctuations, but the
mean  speed is well-defined. The lines of motion are  of  limited
length, and their direction of motion is not correlated with  the
wind. Furthermore they can appear (perhaps even more often)  when
the sky is clear. The Semmerzake radar could locate the  physical
position of the radar returns. As the data accumulated, it became
evident that this phenomenon could not involve UFOs. It had to be
an  atmospheric problem, albeit a fairly special one,  since  the
radar  operators whom I consulted had not noticed this effect.  A
comprehensive  survey  of  the  literature  indicated  that  this
phenomenon  had  not  been  described  either.  I  have   finally
discovered an explanation based on known physical principles  and
on  some independent data. It will be described elsewhere when  I
have had time to verify it further. The "flying angels effect" is
undoubtedly of atmospheric origin.
    My  second main finding was that I found no  reliable  traces
associated with eyewitness accounts of UFO sightings, even when I
examined  the  traces over a wide range of times  and  places.  I
knew,  however,  that  there had been  previous  cases  of  radar
detection  of  UFOs.  The evidence in these  cases  seems  to  be
acceptable  (and  cannot  be explained  by  the  "flying  angels"
phenomenon). Given the lack of radar confirmation in Belgium,  it
would  be  easy  to put forward one or the  other  of  these  two
simplistic  hypotheses:  either the witnesses saw  nothing  of  a
material  nature,  or F-117 Stealth aircraft were  involved.  But
neither one nor the other hypothesis takes into account the whole
range  of  what was observed. The UFOs sighted  in  Belgium  were
usually  described  as  platforms, either  stationary  or  moving
horizontally.  This is sufficient to explain the low  probability
of detection by ground radars. The radar beams would be reflected
back as if by a horizontal mirror. The same technique is used for
the F-117A Stealth plane.
    On several occasions the UFOs had been described as having  a
vertical edge and a dome on top. Seen laterally or from above, as
from  an aircraft, radar detection might therefore be easier.  So
an F-16 might possibly detect a UFO of this kind, if the surfaces
were  not  made of radar-absorbent material.  This  presents  new
questions,  since  if UFOs are extraterrestrial,  why  are  their
shapes now different from previously reported objects? Could they
have adapted their craft's shape in order to evade our  detection
systems,  or  is it just a coincidence, resulting from  the  fact
that this batch of visitors come from somewhere else?
    As for the data from the F-16 on-board radar, which  operates
differently from ground radars and can record different kinds  of
data,  I  can  only  say,  for the  time  being,  that  they  are
astonishing. In particular, there are abrupt changes in speed  as
well as other strange features. This calls for a technical,  far-
reaching,  and careful study. We have made a start. I don't  know
what conclusion we will reach, nor when we shall reach it.

The views of Science & Vie

     With  a few rare exceptions, the French media's coverage  of
the  Belgian  UFO  sightings has not been  distinguished  by  its
objectivity.  Some writers did not hesitate to quite openly  make
fun of the "little Belgians" and their "tales " but we shall  see
who  laughs  last. What surprised me most was the fact  that  the
magazine  Science & Vie (Science & Life) had launched a  sort  of
anti-UFO  crusade. I have often admired this magazine's  articles
of scientific popularization. It has, in the past, taken a  clear
responsibility  for public's scientific education. It is all  the
more  deplorable,  then,  that  in  this  area  it  traffics   in
irrational,  unscientific polemics. The only advantage may be  to
document  the fact for future generations that at the end of  the
20th  Century  people reacted in this fashion, in  spite  of  the
lessons that they could have drawn from the history of science.
     When there is a conflict between a new kind of fact and  the
established  conceptual  framework,  people tend to  hang  on  to
preconceived  ideas. What does not fit in with the theories  that
are  regarded as unshakable is filtered out or repressed.  People
refuse to face reality. So far as UFOs are concerned, the  method
consists  of  selecting some facts that can be explained,  it  is
thought, in a conventional manner. Then it is believed that  this
result  can be extrapolated, without any effort's being  made  to
examine  the rest of the data. This leads to what can  be  termed
unwarranted generalizations.
     In its January 1990 issue (No. 868), Science & Vie showed no
hesitation  in discrediting all the Belgian eyewitnesses  on  the
basis  of  just  one photograph. This photo,  taken  near  Eupen,
showed a big luminous dot. The photographers submitted the  photo
to  SOBEPS, along with several others from the same  event.  Even
though  the  photo  had little to do  with  the  many  eyewitness
sightings,  it  could  have  been  given  an  detailed  analysis.
Instead,  the  editorial  team  of Science  &  Vie  preferred  an
unsupported   interpretation,   strongly  suggesting   that   all
eyewitness reports smacked of "poetry" or optical illusions.
    In the June issue (No. 813) the magazine provided information
about the F-I 17A Stealth aircraft. This sort of information  had
just  been  made public by the U.S. Air Force. The title  of  the
article-"The UFO: This Is It," showing an example of an F-  117A-
speaks  volumes  about  the  magazine's  commercial  rather  than
scientific   intentions.  Again,  it  insinuated  that  all   the
witnesses  must have been mistaken, like the Belgian  Air  Force.
The author of this article and everyone involved clearly felt  no
need  to  conduct on-the-spot inquiries in order to  obtain  more
information and acquire an objective view of the facts.
    The October issue (No. 877) of Science & Vie announced on its
first  page  that it was "on the track of the Belgian  UFOs."  In
fact, the author was concerned only with the events of March  30-
31,  1990,  and  the  involvement  of  the  Belgian  Air   Force.
Apparently he felt that this constituted the core of the  matter,
and that by debunking it he could dispose of the whole story.  He
considered  only  the  initial  reports,  which  contained   raw,
unanalyzed information. The author of the article is  intelligent
and  able,  but  his  method resembled  more  that  of  a  lawyer
defending a specific brief than that of a scientist  representing
the quest for truth. After the press conference given by Lt. Col.
De Brouwer, the F-I 17A hypothesis had been discredited, but that
need   be  no  obstacle;  plenty  of  other  hypotheses  can   be
constructed.
    Why  not suggest the existence of another secret plane,  with
all the capabilities necessary to explain the apparent paradoxes?
Perhaps  the  U.S. Air Force was testing this secret  plane  over
Belgium  without  notifying  the Belgian Air  Force  -a  friendly
nation  which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem  practical  or
likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves  the
risk  of  an  accident  or  crash,  in  which  case  the  Belgian
authorities  would have to be notiFied to help protect  essential
secrets.
    Why not suggest that the Belgian police were so  unaccustomed
to seeing stars that they got all confused at the sight of  some?
Or,  above all, that there is no supporting evidence to  back  up
any of the Belgian sightings, even though there were more than  a
thousand reports and they went on for more than six months?
    Following this line of reasoning, everything is for the  best
in  the  "best  of  all  possible  worlds"  in  which  profounder
questions must not be asked.
   On  the contrary, it seems to me that it's always a good  idea
to  be guided by the Facts, especially when they are  unexpected.
What  thousands of witnesses have seen for many years  throughout
the world deserves serious study. I am not advocating a  specific
hypothesis, only asking people to open their eyes.

The witnesses' reactions

     Witnesses'  reactions are diverse, as might be expected.  In
most  cases people simply relate what has happened in  a  factual
manner, being explicit about what they have been able to  observe
and  confessing their perplexity. What now seems to me to be  new
and  significant is that many witnesses are annoyed at not  being
taken seriously.
    As regards the socio-psychological hypothesis, which explains
UFO sightings by the desire to make contact with extraterrestrial
beings,  I  do  not  believe that  this  is  compatible  with  my
experiences  interviewing a fairly sizable number  of  witnesses.
Naturally there are pathological and even psychiatric cases,  but
let  us  again refrain from unwarranted  extrapolations.  I  have
noted,  like  other investigators, that at the  outset  of  their
strange  sightings,  witnesses practically always try to  find  a
conventional  explanation; as they take in more details,  though,
the  conventional explanation no longer suffices.  This  reaction
violates a basic assumption of some "socio-psychologists."
    It is true that witnesses are quicker to think of a UFO after
the  media have told them other people have seen them,  and  they
report  sightings more readily once they know that  organizations
are   studying   UFO   reports  seriously.   Some   people   have
intentionally  scanned the skies, but they have  not  necessarily
seen anything.
    It  is  absolutely normal for someone to filter  and  analyze
sensory data on the basis of pre-existing conceptual models. What
happens  when  there is a discrepancy?  Some  witnesses  describe
extraordinary events, repeating that they do not believe in UFOs.
Perhaps  they're trying to reassure themselves,  perhaps  they're
afraid  of  seeming  insane  to  the  interviewers.  On   several
occasions  I  have met witnesses who, although accepting  the  ET
hypothesis,  are visibly upset about these "intruders."  Humanity
could be defenseless and dependent on the goodwill of an unknown,
technologically  very superior, external power. I have  met  only
one  witness  who told me in a confiding manner: "I  should  very
much like to meet them." He said this spontaneously when I  asked
him what he thought of his sighting.
    Reality  is  far less clear-cut than the  supporters  of  the
socio-psychological    hypothesis   imagine.    The    collective
unconscious  does  not, for the most part,  desire  contact  with
extraterrestrials. We cannot assume we are dealing with religious
beliefs,  either.  On  the contrary, it is clear  that  a  fairly
sizable  number of witnesses have no wish at all  to  communicate
what  they  have  observed. We know this  because  of  the  cases
discovered entirely by chance and long after the fact. The  1989-
90   Belgian  wave  encouraged  a  number  of  people   to   tell
investigators  about much earlier sightings. One man wrote to  me
describing  a sighting made during the mobilization before  World
War  II, when he was all alone on a road. He was so  excited  and
frightened by the experience that he told no one except his wife.
A  member  of  an embassy told me of a sighting  made  aboard  an
aircraft  with many other people. Afterwards, he asked me not  to
say  anything  about it to the other embassy  personnel,  saying,
"They'll think me crazy."
    The  fact  that  the UFOs reported here are  generally  of  a
different type from the traditional "saucer" is also significant.
If the witnesses had invented their accounts, they would probably
have tried to make them seem more believable by corresponding  to
the standard model. This is not what happened. One new feature is
that  the Belgian UFOs travel over cities at very low  altitudes.
Moreover,  there were no marked electromagnetic disturbances,  as
has often been reported in the past. These differences are  worth
considering  with a view to understanding the  technology  rather
than  simply assuming that the witnesses can't relate  accurately
what they've seen.

An enormous lozenge at Eupen

     Mr. J observed the same type of object twice. I heard of his
sightings  indirectly,  and  when I  telephoned  him,  he  firmly
insisted  on anonymity: "I don't want anyone to tell my  children
that  their  father  was out of his mind." He told  me  that  the
machine  he had seen was "incredibly large." This assessment  was
based  on  his first sighting, which was on December 1,  1989.  I
visited  him on January 15, five days after his second  sighting.
He  is  an amateur photographer and described the  UFO  with  the
precision of a careful observer.
   On the evening of December 1, he was going to take his wife to
a private exhibition organized by his club. At around 5 p.m.  two
of his five children, aged 14 and 15, had already told him  about
"strange  planes in the sky." After school they had been  playing
on  the  street  with  a Moroccan boy who lived  in  one  of  the
neighboring  houses. It was already growing dark and one  of  the
children said, "They're UFOs," using the German word for UFO. Mr.
J had replied, "Of course not, they must be planes."
    At  6:50  Mr.  J was ready to leave. He was  sitting  in  the
living room in his usual chair near a window that looks out on  a
terrace  at  the rear. At that moment one of  his  children  came
rushing  up  all  excited, saying, "Look,  they're  here  again!"
Struck  by his child's insistence, Mr. J rose and went  out  onto
the  terrace.  This forms, together with the garden, a  large  L-
shaped open space behind a cluster of houses. Mr. J saw the young
Moroccan,  who was at the back garden of his house, in the  other
branch  of L, pointing at the sky and stating, "See,  one's  just
coming."  Mr. J told me, "I don't understand how this  boy  could
say that so calmly, as if it was a commonplace remark, because  I
almost  fell over backwards when I looked up. I tell you that  if
you have not seen one, you cannot believe it. It was enormous."
    Mr. J then spontaneously set about drawing the object,  which
was lozenge-shaped, with two white lights at each corner and,  in
the  center,  a  kind of illuminated  bell  projecting  from  the
platform  (figure  1).  The surface of the object  was  dark  but
clearly  visible  against the brighter sky. It had been  a  sunny
day,  and the sky was perfectly clear. Stars were visible  around
the object. It glided slowly from southwest to northeast, without
the  slightest  sound.  It could be  followed  at  a  comfortable
walking pace. The large diagonal of the lozenge was perpendicular
to  the  direction of movement and was at least 35  meters  long.
During  my  visit  Mr. J went onto the terrace  to  show  me  his
reference  marks. The nearest end of the large diagonal had  been
directly  above  his house and the other end had passed  above  a
large  building 350 meters away. He was unable to  determine  the
altitude of the object, but he noticed that he could see the  sky
between the object and the building opposite. As a result he felt
that  the  object could have been even larger than  the  distance
between his house and the building.
     A  little  later on, Mr. J reported that  the  white  lights
flashed  off and on regularly. I asked him whether they did  this
at  the same time. He replied, "I don't know. I couldn't see  the
four  corners  simultaneously.  I had to crane  my  neck."  These
lights  were  circular and large. "The most  extraordinary  thing
about them was their power," he said. They illuminated the ground
with a white light. In the center of the lozenge was an "inverted
bell"  which  was wholly illuminated by an orange light.  At  the
bell's apex was a green light, darker than green traffic  lights.
The  skirt  of the bell was surrounded by a row  of  red  lights,
changing brightness sequentially. This gave a false impression of
revolving  lights. "These lights never completely went  out,  but
they grew distinctly brighter at certain moments."
    The  lights did not illuminate the underside of  the  object,
which  remained dark. The red lights "chased each other"  with  a
slow,  comfortable movement. "It wasn't an alarming  flash,  like
that  from  an ambulance or police car. It was even  pleasant  to
watch."  Mr.  J  also  remembered that  "the  luminous  bell  was
strange,  because you couldn't tell whether the light  came  from
its  interior or the surface." Since the witness was  an  amateur
photographer, he considered going to find his camera but realized
it was too big to capture adequately. Knowing that he had 100 ASA
film  loaded,  he gauged that the mass of the object,  which  was
almost  black,  would  not be made out on film  since  the  white
lights were too dazzling.
    He  did  what  he  could. "I tried to  remember  as  much  as
possible. I also called my wife and daughter so that someone from
my family could see it." Mrs. J did not see the object. She heard
her  husband but was in the bath. His daughter arrived after  the
object was already some way off, having passed over the roofs  of
the  houses. Mr. J went with her to the front, where they  stayed
long  enough  to  see the object leave, still at  a  fairly  slow
speed, passing over the Eupen cemetery.
     Mr.  J bitterly regrets not having taken photos. Since  then
he  has  been to Aix-la-Chapelle to buy infrared film,  which  he
keeps in the refrigerator. The young Moroccan came over while Mr.
J  was drawing his picture for me. He said, unasked,  "Yes,  it's
like  that." The vertical edge (on figure 1) was not  visible  on
December 1. Mr. J drew it based on his second sighting.
    This  second  sighting took place on Wednesday,  January  10,
1990, at about 1:35 p.m. It was dark. The witness, on his way  to
a  photo  club,  had  taken the E5  highway  after  reaching  the
Herbesthal road and was proceeding inland. He had gone only a few
kilometers  when  he saw a stationary object in the sky.  It  was
exactly  "the same model." Mr. J stopped his car on the  side  of
the  road.  Other drivers seemed not to notice  anything.  Mr.  J
leaned  on  the hood of his car, watching the  object  with  arms
crossed.  Everything was identical to the first sighting, but  on
this occasion the lozenge was oriented sideways, and he could see
it  had  a  constant and considerable height. It  was  about  500
meters  away.  Its lights seemed less bright this  time,  perhaps
because of the highway illumination.
    Mr.  J  was exasperated that he hadn't  brought  his  camera.
There  would probably be no point in returning home. After  10-15
minutes  the  object started to move off toward Fagnes.  It  left
slowly  and  silently. Just as it was  departing  the  luminosity
increased.  "It was as though the voltage of the lights had  been
intensified as it moved gently away."
    It may seem strange that Mr. J saw the same object twice.  It
should,  however, not be forgotten that the events of December  1
had  been  deeply  etched in his memory; as  a  consequence,  his
mental  "filters" would have been adjusted in such a way that  he
would more easily notice a similar object in the sky at night.  I
have no reason to doubt this eyewitness report. His sincerity and
spontaneity were evident. The witness had spoken with only a  few
people  and had learned to be cautious. "I have seen many  things
in my life," he said, "but when I talk about this, people look at
me oddly."

A UFO flies over Aix-la-Chapelle

     On  December  5  or 12, 1989, Mr. and Mrs.  O  were  driving
northward  on the Triererstrasse in the town of  Aix-la-Chapelle.
It was about 9:50 p.m. when they suddenly saw a flying object cut
across the road right in front of them. It moved steadily to  the
right.  It  had  two headlights in  front,  emitting  beams  that
slanted downwards. The light was white and intense without  being
blinding.  In  addition,  there  was  an  orange  light  on   the
underside, Dashing at the same rate as an ambulance's lights. Mr.
O  was  driving and had to pay attention to traffic, but  Mrs.  O
continued  to  observe what they still thought  was  an  aircraft
flying  exceptionally low. She kept it constantly in sight.  When
it had crossed the road, it extinguished its headlights, but  the
flashing orange light remained illuminated. This made it possible
to  see  that the object was describing a half-turn  on  a  tight
curve, heading back in the opposite direction.
    Mrs. O first saw it through the front right-hand window. Then
she turned around to look at it through the back rear window. The
object  approached again, passed over the car, and reappeared  in
the   front  left-hand  window.  It  had  cut  across  the   road
diagonally.  At a certain distance from the car,  its  headlights
came  on  again. Since the headlights were at the  front  of  the
object, they could no longer be seen directly, but the beams that
they emitted were visible. Unlike an aircraft, there were no rear
lights  or flashing red and green side-lights. All that could  be
seen  was  the flashing orange light, which  became  fainter  and
fainter as the craft went away.
    Mr. and Mrs. O returned to their home, near  Aix-la-Chapelle.
That  same evening, at 11:15 p.m., Mr. O stepped outside  to  let
the  dog out and noticed exactly the same object. It  was  flying
above  their  street,  in  the  direction  of  Stollberg.  Mr.  O
immediately called his wife. The headlight beams were less angled
than they had been before, but the machine was flying lower.  Its
motion  was  linear  and uniform, with a speed about  that  of  a
helicopter,  but  to the great astonishment of the  witnesses  it
made  no sound. Mrs. O was insistent about the absence of  noise,
for  conditions were such that she and her husband ought to  have
heard it had the craft been equipped with a motor.
    I  asked  them later about the apparent size of  the  object,
suggesting that a thumb held at arm's length might cover it.  The
immediate  response  was,  "No, it would have  required  a  whole
hand."  The sighting occurred fairly late, so the sky  was  dark.
The object stood out clearly against it, because it was  somewhat
brighter.  The witnesses saw an elongated shape, less  high  than
long,  with curved edges. The outlines were different from  those
of an aircraft or helicopter. The hypothesis of night gliders  or
ultralights is not very credible, particularly in the case of the
first sighting. The next day a police car passed down the street,
its   loud-speaker  requesting  those  who  had  seen   "anything
abnormal"  to  report it to them. Mr. and Mrs. O did not  do  so.
Were there other witnesses? They do not know, because they  don't
read  the  local paper. Mr. O, who is Japanese, subscribes  to  a
Cologne daily paper and the Financial Times.
    I  was alerted to this case by Mrs. O's sister, who lives  in
Eupen. The German police habitually ridicule UFO witnesses, so it
is not surprising that Mr. and Mrs. O didn't want to report their
sighting.  I  also conducted an inquiry into  a  close  encounter
involving  two German families living in Lontzen, in  Belgium  on
November 29. The children involved were frightened, so one of the
mothers  called  various places,  including  the  Aix-la-Chapelle
police.  She  told  me that they laughed at her  and  that  their
derisive response had shocked her.

A triangular UFO at Coblenz

     The  following  case was described in the  July-August  1990
issue of the Journal fur UFO-Forschung (Journal for UFO Research)
of  the  GEP  group (Society for the  Investigation  of  the  UFO
phenomenon), based in Ludencheid, Germany. The investigation  was
carried  out  by W. Kelch. This case is  interesting  in  itself,
since it involves the sighting of a triangle in another  country,
but it also has interesting psychological aspects. The  principal
witness, a 33-year-old woman, works at a military base and  seems
to have a solid character.
   The  sighting took place on the evening of February 21,  1990,
at 9:07 p.m., in Karthause, near Coblenz. The lady was  returning
home  by  car, accompanied by her mother (aged 69)  and  her  son
(aged  14),  who  had been to a judo lesson.  They  were  driving
through an attractive residential district on a fairly wide road.
To  the  right  was a continuous line of trees  15-18  meters  in
height, bordering a cemetery. The left-hand side of the road  was
fringed  with houses 20-25 meters high on a small  hill.  Through
traffic is virtually nil and, at this late stage of the  evening,
there was no residential traffic. In fact, no car went by  during
the  episode. The weather was cool and it was dark. The  sky  was
clear.
     The mother was the first to see two lights beaming  straight
down at them at a 45-degree angle (figure 2a). The object bearing
these lights slowed down, but the driver, fearing it might crash,
pulled to the right side of the road. There she stopped, with the
car  at  an  angle. The object stopped  above  the  road,  almost
directly  overhead. The driver switched off the  engine,  lowered
the  window  and looked out. She saw a large  triangular  object,
absolutely  stationary  and noiseless, at  rooftop  height.  From
other  reference  points it was possible to  determine  that  the
sides  of the triangle measured about 20 meters (figure 2b).  The
witnesses watched the object closely, but no one dared get out of
the car.
    Three  milky, yellowish-white lights were at the  corners  of
the triangle. They were bright but not blinding. In the center of
the triangle was a much larger light. Its color was changing  but
the  prevailing hue was grey-blue. These changes seemed to  imply
something revolving, reminding the witnesses of the mirror-globes
in discos. The witnesses said that "this light shone in a strange
way."  They saw only the lower side of the  triangular  platform.
The  object  had  a metallic appearance.  It  was  dark-gray  and
colorless,  with solid and sharp outlines The base  was  slightly
illuminated  by the lights on the object, allowing the  witnesses
to  observe  structures which they described  as  riveted  plates
(figure 2b).
    The  object  stayed overhead for two or  three  minutes  then
departed  suddenly in the direction of the houses. The driver  of
the car felt a breeze through her rolled-down window. The  object
accelerated  and  disappeared from view in less  than  a  second,
behind the roofs of the houses. It had arrived from the west, but
departed  towards the southwest. Its departure was speedier  than
that of a jet aircraft.
    The  witnesses  then  went home, and  the  woman  immediately
informed  her  husband, who was on nightshift. At  first  he  was
unwilling  to believe her story but finally, at  her  insistence,
called the local police. Although the police had not received any
other calls, they agreed to send a police squad to the area.  Her
husband also called the air-traffic sections at the Frankfurt and
Cologne-Wahn  airports. They responded that radar  detection  was
not  possible  at so low an altitude. The  three  witnesses  were
unable to sleep that night. The mother, feeling afraid, stayed in
her daughter's apartment.
    Later  on the wife tried to clear up the mystery on  her  own
initiative.  She found the address and telephone numbers  of  the
GEP,  who  sent  her  a questionnaire  which  she  completed  and
returned by mail. She succeeded in locating two other  witnesses.
Between  8:30 and 8:50 that same evening, a lady  saw  "something
bright   heading  quite  rapidly  towards  my  car,"   near   the
intersection of the A61 and A48 highways. Frightened, she braked.
Through  the  sunroof she saw a bus-shaped metallic  object  with
fairly  bright,  bluish lights. The object went  by  noiselessly,
disappearing  finally in the dark. A UFO was also seen by  a  30-
year-old  man,  just before 9:07 p.m., near the same  spot.  When
questioned,  however,  he distanced himself  from  the  incident,
saying, "Nobody's going to believe me anyway."
    When the GEP investigator contacted the police, they asserted
that  they could not recall having received any  telephone  calls
about UFOs and that they knew nothing of the matter. The lady and
her husband were annoyed by this denial. The investigator had the
impression that the wife was a down-to-earth sort of  individual.
He found no discrepancy between her account and the questionnaire
she  had completed. So far as the witness was concerned, she  had
seen an unidentified flying object.
    The  GEP tried to find a conventional explanation. A  balloon
was  ruled out because there had been a light east wind  and  the
object was first seen moving west to east. And how could it  have
turned around and left so fast? The police use BO-105 helicopters
to  patrol the highways for trucks, but this too was  ruled  out.
Could  it have been a military plane? There is in actual  fact  a
military  exercise  ground (Schmitenhohe)  two  kilometers  away,
where   German   and   NATO   forces   run   nocturnal   infrared
reconnaissance flights and other exercises. But that night  there
had been no exercises.
    In  Germany a CH-47 Chinook helicopter is often suggested  as
an  explanation for UFO reports. Such aircraft are  used  between
Mendig  and Mainz, but the flights take place almost  exclusively
during the day at a height of 800-1000 meters. Taken as a  whole,
the  evidence  in this case renders  that  explanation  unlikely.
Nevertheless,  the investigator thought it necessary to  consider
the  possibility that the three witnesses were in shock  and  had
perhaps  not heard the noise, having been paralyzed by fear.  The
investigator  thus concluded noncommittally that  "the  available
data  do not allow us to make an unambiguous identification as  a
known  flying  object."  You can make what you  like  about  this
statement.  Who  is  frightened?  The  witnesses  by  a  somewhat
hypothetical  helicopter,  or  the  investigator  by  social  and
psychological pressures?

A recent sighting in Switzerland

     This  event occurred on Sunday, October 14, 1990. The  Swiss
sighting was relayed to me by the witness, Mrs. Wengere, who  has
authorized   me  to  cite  her  name.  She  telephoned  me   from
Switzerland  and confirmed her account in writing. An  editor  by
profession,  she was clearly looking for people who would  listen
seriously  to  such  reports. She wrote to  a  Zurich  paper  and
personally collected various recent eyewitness reports a copy  of
which she sent me.
    On  the  evening of October 14 she and her  husband  were  on
their  way to a hospital to visit a friend. It was about 7  p.m.,
already  dark, with stars easily visible. The sky was  clear  and
there  was no wind. They were driving from Lostdorf, near  Olten,
toward  Zurich.  Mrs. Wengere spotted two  bright  white  lights.
They were motionless, a little to the left ahead of them, over  a
range of mountains. The couple could not see light beams but only
two large, luminous, perfectly round disks, surrounded by a light
atmospheric halo. The left-hand light was higher than the right.
    Mrs.  Wengere  at  first  thought  the  lights  must  be   on
transmission towers on the mountaintops, although they would have
to  have  been  erected recently since she had  never  seen  them
before.  There  was  still enough light in the  sky  for  her  to
observe  that there was nothing between the lights and the  range
of  mountains.  She  thus  deduced that  the  lights  had  to  be
supported  by  one  or two flying objects  whose  shape  was  not
discernible. She told her husband, "There's a UFO over there! "
    She  asked  him  to stop. He saw the  lights  and  could  not
explain  them  either, but he didn't stop because  there  was  no
parking space along the road and it would have been dangerous  to
stop  in the dark. The bright lights must have been of  excessive
dimensions  since  the  stars  appeared  minuscule  and  pale  in
comparison,  as did the lights of an approaching aircraft.  There
was  one approaching the UFO (figure 3a) at that very moment.  If
the  lights were at the same distance as the plane, each of  them
ought  to  have been almost as large as the  plane  itself.  Mrs.
Wengere  expected the object to react to the plane, but  at  that
moment she and her husband were passing a village and lost  sight
of the object. They even had to wait for a red traffic light.
    When  they  once  more  had a  clear  view,  the  lights  had
disappeared.  Mrs. Wengere was annoyed that her husband  had  not
stopped  when  she had asked him to. He exclaimed,  "Look,  there
they are again! " The lights were hanging a little higher in  the
sky,  above  the  mountains to the right of  the  road.  The  new
position  and the previous location formed an angle of about  100
degrees.  Since  the witnesses had not observed the  shift,  this
could have been another object entirely. In fact, they now  noted
a  third light, identical to the first two, a little to the  left
of the others. It was separated from them by a distance almost 10
times  as  large as the distance between the  other  two  lights,
which were still stationary.
    The third light was at first motionless, but after some  time
it shifted slowly towards the others with a linear uniform speed.
It  stopped after having covered two-thirds of the distance  that
separated it from them (figure 3b). The other two lights began to
move  together, as if they were joined, their diagonal  alignment
becoming  horizontal. The pair became smaller and  less  intense,
but at the same time two chains of red and green lights  appeared
joining  the  two.  The distance between them  grew  greater  and
eventually  the two lights disappeared, leaving only the red  and
green crown of light visible.
    The  third  light  also changed during this  time  it  became
fainter  and acquired its own oval crown of small red  and  green
lights.  The  vertical  axis  of the  ellipse  thus  formed  grew
gradually longer, but the second crown was smaller than the first
(figure  3c). The two witnesses thought that the chains of  light
were fixed to the sides of objects that were changing their tilt,
but  neither of them could actually see the objects. Followed  by
other  vehicles,  they  continued to drive on.  Mr.  Wengere  had
slowed down only slightly. The lights were lost once again behind
some houses, this time for good.
    The  Wengeres were already aware of the UFO phenomenon  as  a
result  of a previous sighting. On July 20, 1989, at  about  6:50
p.m., they had both been out in their garden. The sun was shining
and  the  sky was cloudless. Mrs. Wengere noticed  an  elongated,
silvery  object.  It moved like an aircraft, but  she  could  see
neither wings nor tail. It was simply cigar-shaped and completely
silent.  She  pointed  it out to her  husband,  who  was  equally
surprised.  Mrs. Wengere thought it so strange that  ten  minutes
later  she  telephoned the air-traffic control  at  Zurich-Kloten
airport. She learned that there had been no "official flight"  at
that  time  over  her home and that  nothing  abnormal  had  been
recorded on the radar screens.
    Mrs.  Wengere was unable to stop thinking about what she  had
seen  on  October 14. She remembered having read  about  a  large
number of sightings of UFOs in Belgium. On October 20 she decided
to  telephone the air traffic center at Zurich-Kloten.  They  had
seen  nothing  unusual  on their radars  during  the  evening  of
October  14, and no one else had reported a  similar  phenomenon.
The  man who answered the telephone said, "It must be an  optical
illusion due to some sort of reflection." He said this haughtily,
adding  that he received many telephone calls of this  kind,  but
that  they were almost always optical illusions.  This  indicates
that  there were other UFO reports, although the  explanation  he
offered was purely gratuitous.
    I  note that in the United States a photograph was  taken  on
May 26, 1988, near Southbury of a beautiful crown of  alternating
red, yellow and green lights against a black background. This  is
documented  by  a  magnificent slide that I  have  received  from
Philip  Imbrogno, co-author of the book Night Siege.  This  shows
that  one  must not treat each case in isolation as  if  it  were
unique,  but  search for correlations as has to be done  for  any
physical  phenomenon.  For  this reason we  must  not  focus  our
attention  solely  on the events of March 30-31,  1990,  whatever
their possible importance may eventually be.
    As  for  the "flying angels effect," which has  led  to  some
notable problems in atmospheric physics and useful knowledge  for
radar  operators,  this  discovery was  simply  a  by-product  of
rational study of the UFO problem. As such it underlines that  it
is worthwhile to look carefully at mysterious phenomena. I expect
that  the  thoroughness  and seriousness of our  study  of  radar
"noise" will help our credibility as we examine other aspects  of
the UFO phenomenon.

PARANET FILE NAME: MEESEN.UFO

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!amdcad!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circles / Books?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Aug 91 23:42:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 18


       Can any one recomend a current book on crop circles?
       Preferably one with good airal photos?

                           Thanks!


P.S  John, are you for real? (this is a serious question)

                           Denise



--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp.                     [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!cats.ucsc.edu!beeboy
From: [e-mail] (Rev. D.P. Rubin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 09:53:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Maud's Taco and Coyote ChurchO
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1657 alt.conspiracy:6557


Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the
artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or
with theories of life on Titan?

Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating!
--
_______________Don't push me, 'cause I'm close to the edge_____________________
___________________________________________________-Grandmaster Flash_________
Reverend Beeboy, minister of Pornography, Graffiti consultant, and the Thug.
Disclaimer:  Bass for ya face, Santa Cruz!
"Welcome my friends to Palomar.  Where men are men, and women need a sense of
        humor."
                                             -Carmen, _Love and Rockets_
________________________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates
Summary: Whitty's our man!
Keywords: GO Whitley GO!
Message-ID: <1KR}[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 21:03:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 41
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
>
> > If this is your only objection to Strieber, I suggest you re-think
> > things (and read a bit more).  He explains the episode you speak of in
> > _Transformation_ which is a sequel to _Communion_.  What is it you
> > object to about the story he told?
> >
> > Personally, I have two things to say about Strieber:  (1)  I don't
> > believe he's lying and (2) he's a *lot* smarter than your average
> > UFO-nut (or average person, for that matter).  I'd like to see how *you*
> > handle the situation he's (apparently) been put into.
>
>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that
>convinced you that he was telling the truth?  I suspect that he is a lot
>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility.  I
>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that
>Strieber was making it all up.  But why?
>
> > BTW, it's comments like yours that have led Strieber to label ufologists
> > "the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered."
>
>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game.  After a
>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship.  Tell me,
>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any
>resources to help them with their problems?
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as
Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you
said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by
UFOlogists.  You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you
still don't say why.  Can you tell the net what you think he was up to?
And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion?

Andrew
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!ipc1.lat.oz.au!stephens
From: [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 08:46:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au

Josh Vander Berg writes:

>Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely
>non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record
>does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's
>evolution from lower primates.

  But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say
uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into
a species represented by a later fossil.  Looking at the similarities
between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft
biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their
DNA.  Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part
of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by
extrapolation and show that they are all viable.
  It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
like any other theory, is not possible.  But you can disprove evolution by
presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).
  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
<  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
<  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
<  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
<  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: working on a FAQL
Message-ID: <steve.681866055@ram>
Date: 10 Aug 91 23:14:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto
Lines: 55

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>>
>>>Not to the best of my knowledge, but we should start one!  A sort of FAQL
>>>for this newsgroup.
>>>
>>That's an idea that I'm toying with myself. Frequently, people will ask:
>>
>>What are the greys? Where do they come from? What IS a "grey"? etc,ect..
>>
>>Hmmmmmm...I'll get to work on some parts..maybe you could work on something
>>too?

>I'd like to do something of the sort, but I really don't know how much to
>do.  For example, I don't want to end up writing a comprehensive history of
>alien/human interaction in the 20th century.

>If I think of anything, I'll post it.  Let's see, we've already defined
>"grey" and "Nord."  We probably need a list of crash/retrieval cases
>(again, *briefly*), "What is MJ-12/MAJI/MAJIC/Majority/Majestic?", "Who are
>the Pleiadians?" (this is *not* my favorite area, and probably wouldn't get
>favorable treatment from me), who are Lear, Cooper, English, Grace,
>Bennewitz, Lazar, Walters, Meier, etc.

>--
>  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         |  "Let's become
>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms  |   alive again."
>  37 Brook Street    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     |
>

  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     |       --Yes



Well I for one would like to see a FAQ/FAQL list for this group as
well as others. A FAQ and a bibliography would be very nice. Your
responses as to favored/no favored areas points out the need for
commentary on these sorts of things. Since News seems to be up and
working here. Gee, I finally did something right. :) I may be tempted
to post my idea of what good Frequently Asked Questions are, and what
I think are important books etc.




                Have Fun,
                Sends Steve





Reply to: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens at Work
Message-ID: <steve.681866635@ram>
Date: 10 Aug 91 23:23:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto
Lines: 58

[e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] says:
>>
>>QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS NEWSGROUP:
>>How can one tell if one's coworkers are alien vistors?
>>
>>I have had some ongoing suspicions about a few of my coworkers. The being who
>>occupies the office next to mine always wheres electronic listening devices
>>over his ears--they are like headphones but different. One can find him at all
>>times of the day--and night, I understand--typing wildly into a computer
>>keyboard.  He commonly dresses in ways that are foreign to the workplace.
>>
>>There are others, many others, who act and dress in an odd fashion.They work
>>non-stop, also typing into keyboards. They look like the beings that some have
>>described as "greys."  They speak
>>of the 7th year (biblical for totality)in a fearful fashion, referring to it
>>as
>>the "up or out year." This
>>sounds as if they may be considering some kind of extra-terrestrial travel.
>>
>>If anyone can solve this mystery and give some advice regarding whether we are
>>actually dealing with extraterrestrials, it would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>---Aloha!

>They sound more like hackers to me.  As for the headset, listen in
>sometime, its probably AC/DC or Led Zeppelin.  As for typing wildly,
>that's a hackers method.  As for the odd clothing, have you ever met
>a hacker or programmer who DIDN'T dress that way.  It's a mark of
>distinction.  As for the grey color.  Sounds like too many twinkies
>and too little sleep to me.

>Just my 2 cents worth.

>George Newell
>[e-mail]   or  [e-mail]


Well a friend of mine has provided me lots of fun by posting these`
sorts of things to me. Some of these weird things I can relate to
and when I first say it, I gasped and thought they were talking
about me!

From the tone of this message it seems you tongue is very firmly
planted in your cheek. I think at some level we are all aliens,
at least in the metaphysical sense. We are all "others" (the almost
literal meaning of "alien"), and when I go back and visit relatives
back east, they definitely think that I am from another planet! :)



                Have Fun,
                Sends Steve


Reply to: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident
Message-ID: <steve.681867692@ram>
Date: 10 Aug 91 23:41:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto
Lines: 26

[e-mail] writes:

>What happened to the people I was talking to about hanger 19 and the Roswell
>incident.  Everything just went quiet.  No posts, no responses, what in the
>hell is going on here.  Someone Emailed me the first part of the radio
>interview in Las Vegas, but where is the rest of this account?  Is any one
>getting this message?  Am I the only one experiencing this or am I getting
>scenile.


I got this message. I don't think you are going senile. We people
"out here" in California "go scenile" from seeing too much scenery. :)
I for one would like to see as much neat weird stuff about Roswell as
possible.

Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?)
New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those
Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting?


                Have Fun,
                Sends Steve

E-mail Address: [e-mail]


Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability
Message-ID: <steve.681868113@ram>
Date: 10 Aug 91 23:48:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto
Lines: 40

[e-mail] (Jeff Beddow) writes:

>It must be remembered that Strieber is a very good science fiction writer.  He wrote the book and I believe the screenplay for "Wolfen."  While this makes him   an eloquent teller of his tale, it also opens up alternate interpretations of  his motives...It seems unlikely, but possible, that this is a post-modern version of the Mercury Radio Theater War of the the Worlds?

>If I get chased by some ugly little shits with galactic army knives for posting this I will let you know.



>-Jeff


Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things
he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch<
resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if
some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also
has certain beliefs that very closely parallel much of the "thematic
theology" of Science-Fiction and Ecologically-Oriented Science Fiction.

Wolfen for example is almost a hope of Strieber's. He wishes that there
were some other entity to sort of put us in our metaphorical place. The
Wolfen sort of does this, and it is an almost religious hope. He for
example endows the Wolfen with a quasi-invincibility. He speaks of how
the Wolfen would never fear Man because, and I paraphrase >>" A Wolf
would never fear a rabbit or a deer." My question has always been:
"Well what about deer armed with automatic rilfes?" I mean it is clear
that if the metaphorical rabbits were armed and dangerous the metaphorical
wolves would learn to fear them or be wiped out. For this reason I
think there are lots of emotional, quasi-religious things going involving
Strieber. This doesn't necessarily mean he is a decieving scum, but it means
that something interesting is going on.



                     Have Fun,
                 Sends Steve


P.S. Email Reply Address is: [e-mail]


Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 00:19:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681868113@ram>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
Lines: 24
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Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu

In article <steve.681868113@ram>, [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak) writes...
>Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things
>he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch<
>resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if
>some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also

Maybe it's the other way around.

Perhaps Wolfen and Night Church were the result of Streiber's so-called
"experiences"?

Remember, he didn't (apparently) know about his "abductions" until after
those were written.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Jim

         -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
| UUCP:     dolmen![e-mail]                         |
| BBS:      The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
|            [phone], 24hrs.                                    |
|______________________________________________________________________|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Jefferys)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 02:43:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx talk.origins:10448 alt.alien.visitors:1665 sci.skeptic:13670 alt.paranormal:2443

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:

#  It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
#like any other theory, is not possible.  But you can disprove evolution by
#presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
#such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
#there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
#evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please do.

#  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
#means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

Bill

--
If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your kill file
    --Robert Firth
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!ether!kellym
From: [e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Aug 91 06:50:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur)
Organization: HALF, Beaverton, OR
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1666 sci.skeptic:13671 alt.paranormal:2444

Though I'm not even slightly well read in areas of biology or physical
anthropology, I have given some thought as to why many people have such
great difficulty with the notion of human evolution, (rationalization
of self-actualizing religious belifes aside). I think that it may have to
do with the fact that the evolution of organisms into highly distinct
and varied forms is awfully hard to comprehend, for some of us.  So too
is the effect of the passage of Millions of years on a species.  Nothing
in our experience is very helpful in getting some kind of intuitive
feel for these kinds of things.

With one possible exception.

As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts
of dogs running around.  Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things.  There
did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers
taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers.
Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected,
although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund).  These dogs are not only
highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place
in startlingly few generations.  If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a
poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8?


--
********************************************************************
*    Kelly McArthur        ..tektronix!sequent!ether!kellym   *
*    HALF Associates        (Heavily Armed Lunatic Fringe)     *
********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!helios!rigel.tamu.edu!rab7166
From: [e-mail] (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 04:19:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Texas A&M University
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1667 sci.skeptic:13674 alt.paranormal:2445
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes...
>Josh Vander Berg writes:
>
>
>  But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say
>uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into
>a species represented by a later fossil.  Looking at the similarities
>between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft
>biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their
>DNA.  Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part
>of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by
>extrapolation and show that they are all viable.

The above logic taken to the extreme:

Let's see you look an awful lot like your father, but there are some
differences.  You'll have to show me a transitionary form that looks like
both of you before *I* believe you are a descendent of him!!!

Richard Baker

This is just taken the above satire a step further; though, it's still
not nearly as bad as the Christian philosophy.

Disclaimer:  Not all people who belief in Christ and claim to be Christian
believe in the Christian philosphy that is implied above.
(_Christian philosophy_ belief that Bible is true and always will be true)
The above definition is mine.  It describes many people who claim to be Xians.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien spacecraft to be displayed? [Forwarded from sci.astro]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 04:46:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13676 misc.headlines:17358 alt.alien.visitors:1668

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Beaven) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe
>Mastroianni) writes:
>#
>#  Actually, my point is: Why would an advanced civilization regard our form
># of government as a vehicle to communicate or control the masses? When
># we take eggs from chickens, we don't bother to ask the "head rooster". We
># go right to the chickens. Its easier.
>
>That's funny. I had assumed throughout this thread that your point was that
>these alien civilization would look for some intelligent life to communicate
>with, rather than talking to the US Govt.
>
>John

Touche!

  :-)

  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien spacecraft to be displayed?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 04:54:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13677 misc.headlines:17359 alt.alien.visitors:1669

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Showen) writes:
>References:<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>
>Joe Mastroianni comments
>
>>I still find it difficult to believe that beings capable of intersteller
>>multidimensional or whatever else , travel, would choose to deal directly
>>with the U.S.government. This does not compute.
>
>It is a matter of the assumption that people seem to make that
>intelligence and spiritual would be connected.  They are not, as
>sci.skeptic well proves. The ETs who have been in touch with the Govt.
>since the 40's are very intelligent and technological, but have no
>feelings or love.  Consequently them and the govt. (military) get
>along great together.  In fact that is why the Govt. attracted that
>type instead of a more benevolent, loving, higher, evolved type.
>
>Don Showen

  I disagree with your generalization that the Government and our military
  are composed of people who are "Intelligent, and technological, but have
  no feelings of love."

  Having known many people in government and the military, I can assure you
  that there are people in both of those organizations who have very
  strong feelings of love.  I dont think you want to say that people
  in those professions lack the ability to love or be benevolent. I think
  you may be making an unfair and inaccurate generalization.


 Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hello?  Hello-o!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 05:26:32 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 26
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

I humbly ask that some one post a *short* list of the "must reads" on this
subject.  I've posted this request a couple of times and haven't received
a response; e-mail or post.

Don't worry guys, I'm not CIA, NSA, MJ-12, MIB or any of those other scary
things I read about in the _Krill_ document.  Just an interested netter
looking for some interesting reading.

If the regular participants in this group are trying to find a subtle way
to say "this is a closed club" then please just say so.

Tell ya what, how about some one just responds with a "go browse a bookstore"
that way I'll know that at least my posts are working.  Please, forgive my
rudeness; I'm just a bit frustrated.

Thank you!

Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"?

--
......................................................................
  ___            :  Eric P. Herrera            :  My opinions only...
 (__ '     .     :  Metaphor Computer Systems  :  Don't blame Metaphor
 /    ,_  ,  _   :  Mountain View, CA          :.......................
(___)/ (_/(_(_,  :  [e-mail]
......................................................................
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strieber
Keywords: GO Whitley GO!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 05:49:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1KR}[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 45

[e-mail] (Andrew Shires) writes:

=>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that
=>convinced you that he was telling the truth?  I suspect that he is a lot
=>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility.  I
=>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that
=>Strieber was making it all up.  But why?

=>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game.  After a
=>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship.  Tell me,
=>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any
=>resources to help them with their problems?

=>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

>I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as
>Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you
>said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by
>UFOlogists.  You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you
>still don't say why.  Can you tell the net what you think he was up to?
>And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion?

I second this!  Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some*
facts, I don't find you very reasonable.  I'll *bet* your main objection
to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really
AREN'T evil.  At least that classification would be too simplistic
according to him.  Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with
aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans.  I find that argument
very thin and simplistic.

Andrew, my opinion of Strieber is mainly from reading his three books
(and what I've heard from others to a lesser extent).  I've heard it
said that he's working for the government and affiliated with deceptive
government agents (Moore? Can't remember).  If this person is the
"Wilfred Stone" character in _Majestic_ I think I can forgive him. :-)
I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's
generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's
going on.  His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher
approach to this thing than a lot of people.  In my opinion, more people
involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful.

>Andrew

--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!lorien!william
From: [e-mail] (William Coyne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 07:56:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1672 sci.skeptic:13679 alt.paranormal:2448

[e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:
>  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
>means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

It may not be airtight but its far better than the alternative scientific
theories.  Apart from Lamarkianism (which is still a form of evolution
are they any other scientific theories which compete with neodarwinian
 evolution.

And what are the problem areas you mention?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 14:46:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1673 sci.skeptic:13681 alt.paranormal:2450

[e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur) writes:

>
> As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts
> of dogs running around.  Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things.  There
> did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers
> taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers.
> Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected,
> although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund).  These dogs are not only
> highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place
> in startlingly few generations.  If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a
> poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8?

[put on my stupid-guy voice]

Well, let's see, 10^6 is what, like twice as long as 10^3?  No, three
times, yeah, that's it.

[end stupid-guy voice]

My point is that people still won't get it.
Even computer scientists who know what ^ means probably aren't
real good at conceiving of 10^8 years.

I think you are right, though, that this is where many people
have trouble believing in evolution.

One final point:  We turned a wolf into a toy poodle, and Bob
Bales still thinks there is a God.  God would have struck us
dead in a minute for having done something like that.  And
done the same for the poodle as an act of mercy. :-)
--
*Eric Shafto             * How many loved your moments of glad grace,     *
*Institute for the       * And loved your beauty with love false or true, *
*    Learning Sciences   * One man loved the pilgrim soul in you,         *
*Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face;   *
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!stanford.edu!bu.edu!bu-bio!colby
From: [e-mail] (Chris Colby)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: defending evolution -- again
Summary: flames
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 17:49:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Colby)
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Biology Dept., Bost
Lines: 75
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1674 sci.skeptic:13682 alt.paranormal:2452

**WARNING** please don your protective asbestos suit before reading
the flames contained herein. Should you feel nauseous or dizzy, press
'n' and hopefully the feeling will go away.

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail]
(Philip J Stephens) writes:

>  It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
>like any other theory, is not possible.

    Big deal. _Nothing_ in science is "unequivocally" proved.
Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution is as solidly
grounded as any theory in science. If you don't believe me, go to
the library and browse through the past couple years of Nature,
Science or PNAS -- the big three general audience science journals.
If evolution were not a great theory, why would these prestigious,
peer-reviewed journals devote so much space to it?

>But you can disprove evolution by
>presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
>such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
>there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
>evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).

    The need has arizen. I find it strange that so many people
will post attacks on evolution to a public forum and never give one
shred of evidence to back up their droolings. If they had evidence
of problems with the theory, they would have posted it.

>  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
>means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

    O.K. Mr. Honors Student, lets see you prove it, or even back
up your statements. I think you are absolutely full of shit and I will
easily be able to destroy any arguments you put forward (because all
the arguments against evolution are special pleadings by brain dead
fundies). You would know this, of course, if your discipline was
a real science. Any field that tacks "science" on the end of it
is "Science Lite -- the taste of real science with 1/3 the rigor".
So come on Phil, we are all dying to hear your stunning refutation
of evolution -- or are you ready to admit you are just lying about
having evidence against evolution? Also, didn't you make claims
like this about six months ago then disappear when pressed for
details?

    I've set the follow up to talk.origins -- where this
discussion belongs. Not that I don't think Philip will just
disappear (like a weasel), but you never know. Apologies to
computer scientists, my comments were made solely to annoy
Philip enough so that he will respond and expose his anti-
evolution rantings for what they are -- unscientific drivel.
Apologies also to anyone offended by the tone of my article,
however, I feel that attacks on evolution are attacks on
science in general. They are motivated not by a desire to seek
the truth, but to further religious ends. I will pay close
attention to any response forethcoming from Philip and endeavor
to show carefully why his arguments (if he even has any) are
spurious. Evolution is a great theory and does not deserve this
kind of abuse. (Of course, serious examinations of flaws in the
theory would be most welcome -- see my recent articles in
talk.origins as to how the the dogma of random mutations is
being revised as the result of some careful experimental work.)

><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
><  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
><  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
><  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
><  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>

Chris Colby     ---     email: [e-mail]    ---
"'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined,
resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'"
     --Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles in the UK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 18:59:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

Its not suprising that a dolphin would show up, really. After all, dolphins
know things that people dont for the most part give them credit. Ive been in
the water with dolphins :)


--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!billy
From: [e-mail] (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 18:13:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681867692@ram>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Bill Moore)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.
Lines: 30

In article <steve.681867692@ram> [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak) writes:















.... stuff deleted ....

]>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?)
]>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those
]>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting?

Sounds like a fun trip.  I'd be interested in going.  Anyone else want to
come along?


>
>E-mail Address: [e-mail]
>
>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Keywords: GO Whitley GO!
Message-ID: <C}S}[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 21:39:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1KR}[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 27
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell) writes:
>I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's
>generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's
>going on.  His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher
>approach to this thing than a lot of people.  In my opinion, more people
>involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful.

I must agree with this -- having only read his two non-fiction (by his own
accounts, at least) books it seems to me that he does not make any claims to
know what it is all about.  I don't claim to speak from a position of
authority about Streiber, but the books have impressed me like no others, and
they are the work of an extraordinarily clever man if they are entirely made
up.

At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not
especially great), Streiber started something new.  If anything, I would
say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO
literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has to be a
good thing.

Please tell us why we are being led on, Mike!

Andrew


>Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
>Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!gumby!kzoo!k080093
From: [e-mail] (Josh Vander Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 23:02:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kalamazoo College
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1678 sci.skeptic:13687 alt.paranormal:2453

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:
>Josh Vander Berg writes:
>
>>Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely
>>non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record
>>does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's
>>evolution from lower primates.
>
>  But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say
>uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into
>a species represented by a later fossil.  Looking at the similarities
>between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft
>biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their
>DNA.  Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part
>of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by
>extrapolation and show that they are all viable.
>  It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
>like any other theory, is not possible.  But you can disprove evolution by
>presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
>such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
>there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
>evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).

fire away...

>  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
>means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

Of course it is not airtight.  No theory is, and no theory is ever 100%
accurate.  All theories are models only, models made to best fit evidence
that we have observed.  I NEVER suggested that it was airtight, but that
lack of evidence does not disprove something (ask a christian about this
one)  There is postive evidence that suggests evolution is a viable theory,
and yes, there are gaps, there HAVE to be gaps, but these gaps in themselves
prove NOTHING, they are LACK of proof, not proof for or against.

--
Josh Vander Berg ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!news
From: Todd Born
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OH Krill facts??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 00:41:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: sgi.com
Lines: 73

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(CLARK BRIAN R) writes:
>
>
>       I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would
>    like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen.
>    How can we assess the credibility of UFO information?  The OH Krill
>
** point here, just take the info and run, read below.....


   file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the
>    UFO community; for what reasons is this so?  How can the would-be
>    investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit?

***by coming up with a unique way to investigate, becoming an
   experiment ( maybe via net??)

>       Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would
>    help the rest of us by sharing their experience.  Or is there no way of
>    avoiding the dis-information?  Don, you have the floor...
>

*** I beleive that the way to credit or discredit this file is to do
    what don says.  First, do not believe it all, be a skeptic, and
    reserarch it yourself.  For me, an avid sci-fi fan, I thought it
    was in part possible, although the nagging question is, how to go
    about proving various parts to create a more believable whole:

    1.  devise a route (plan) that will allow you to research without
        beening detected. (greys, dont read this...)

    2.  Decipher the information into its most basic parts:
        a.  time , date
        b.  witness (s)
        c.  location
        b.  event

    3.  utilize this info to drag out facts from other angles (these
        should work...)

(crops).a.  try locating all heavy eqiupment paperwork, owners, leasing??

(cities underground)  b.  utilize local county records for incoming gov.
                      employees

              #1(how about all those who work on these projects??)

       c.  figure out who could work on what, what skills are involved,
           and run a scan college to college of majors associated with
           your findings
        d.   next, trace most probable (4.0 nerds, Alternative groupies
            alien friendly, social misfits, the weak and lonely, the
            agressive and outgoing, blackmailed, or blackmailing)
        e.  now , trace the most probable to their present location
            and decipher whether or not they would fit into the mould
            of dissapearing, personality change, or relocation) this
           based upon info from d. above

        f.  finally, trace all those who have or had questionable
            spots (ie.  was nowhere for three years, showed up
            in new Jeresy not knowing who they were, new fingerprints, etc)

        the rest I'll leave to your imagination, but there are other
ways of getting info besides driving thru the gates at Area 51, etc.




*** just some bulls___ to feed on.  If I had the time, these would be
some of the ways, (but not all!!)  to verify stories.

ATTENTION -= IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE TO NET !! TODD
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!news
From: Todd Born
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 00:46:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681867692@ram>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: sgi.com
Lines: 18

In article <
>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?)
>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those
>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting?
>
>
>                                Have Fun,
>                                Sends Steve
>
>E-mail Address: [e-mail]
>
>
>
*** Steve, read my post on 'OH Krill facts??  I think that even though
    my ideas are not profound, these types of fact-hunting might get
    you somewhere. always try the back door, they're just waiting for
    in dulce ,NM.  to tell you to leave, then get your licience #. not
for me, I'd rather get the 'up' on the Gov and Greys for once.....todd
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Question on significant dates
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 03:53:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christian G. Smith) writes:
>
>         "In '98 we _ALL_ rotate..."   - INXS

Being only a casual fan of the band, I've always wondered what the hell
they meant by that.  I'm aware of the 1998 date for (insert your belief
here), but what do INXS mean by it?

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Reading material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 04:05:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>Over the last few days some posters have recommended reading material on
>the subject of this group.  Specifically mentioned were the Streiber books
>(with which I am already familiar), something called _Aliens Among Us_
>(I think) and a few others.  I would appreciate someone sending me a
>*short* bibliography -- I'd particularly like the info on _Aliens..._
>and a few other "must reads."

"Aliens Among Us", along with the rest of Ruth Montgomery's books, is
extremely New Age-biased.  If reading of Atlantis and channeled entities
bothers you, avoid it.    (I read it once just to see what that part of the
UFO world was up to.  Usually I stick to things that are a bit more
material.  [Though I don't rule out the possibility of psychic/magickal
experiences, it's impossible to verify that they really happened as opposed
to being purely human in origin, and some of the literature based upon
them is absolute drivel.])

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  needles, implants, tissue samples
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 04:20:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>
>I think Strieber also says in "Communion" that the same thing happens to
>his son. When he takes his kid to a pediatrician, the doctor looks up the
>kids nose and says he dosent see anything abnormal. Just some openings in
>the upper part of the nasal cavity which seem to be common in kids.
>You are then supposed to wonder, as a thinking reader, why the hell is it
>common for kids to have needle holes in the top of their nasal cavity?

I haven't read anything by Strieber, but in "Intruders" Budd Hopkins says
that a doctor told him that a lot of kids have holes there.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Oh Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 00:40:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 67


 > From: [e-mail] (CLARK BRIAN R)
 > Date: 10 Aug 91 06:44:59 GMT
 > Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
 >
 >
 >
 >        I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would
 >     like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen.
 >     How can we assess the credibility of UFO information?  The OH Krill
 >     file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the
 >     UFO community; for what reasons is this so?  How can the would-be
 >     investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit?

After a lengthy investigation into this matter, we determined that it was
based upon a compilation of science fiction stories over the years, combined
with a little rumor about aliens being held captive by the U.S. Government,
and all blended into a very cheap piece of work called "The Matrix" by an
author, John Grace, using a pseudonym of Val Valerian.  Grace and John Lear
are good friends living in Las Vegas, NV.  After much controversy, Lear
admitted publicly that the material was all without substance.  The name "O.H.
Krill" stood for the "Original Hostage Krill" allegedly captured by the Air
Force in the 60s and held captive in the deserts of Nevada.  During his stay
with our government, he wrote a book called "Yellow Book" which was about
their culture and how they "cloned" Jesus Christ to keep us naughty humans in
line.  It goes on and on ad nauseum.  Bottom line:  I tend to hold those
deliberately asserting bull as truth in very low esteem, for whatever reason.
Additionally, there is a common thread between the crap that these guys
espouse and what William L. Moore fed Dr. Paul Bennewitz as disinformation
under the direction of the AFOSI (Air Force Office of Special Intelligence) at
Kirland AFB in New Mexico.  Many interesting threads going all to the same
place.  John Lear wrote several text files concerning the
"aliens-eating-humans-from-underground-bases-in-Dulce, NM" scenario.  Again,
this is very similar to the stuff that was being fed to Bennewitz.  Bennewitz
later took an extended vacation for a nervous breakdown to allow the paranoia
to wear off.

This crap that goes on tends to create the most effective damage control to
keep serious UFO study from moving forward.  Too many normal people take one
look at this crap and write the whole subject off.  That is truly unfortunate
because there is a valid phenomenon which deserves better attention than it
gets at "the home for unwed paranoids."

 >        Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff
 > would
 >     help the rest of us by sharing their experience.  Or is there no way
 > of
 >     avoiding the dis-information?  Don, you have the floor...

I hope you don't mind my two cents on this, Brian.  Very good point.  That is
just what we do at ParaNet.  We are interested in the serious research.
Sometimes that includes investigating these clowns that make so much noise,
and when we find something, we write about it.  We also hold the Gulf Breeze
fiasco in low esteem for similar reasons.  It is not so much that Ed Walters
might have hoaxed the photos, it is the shoddy so-called "scientific
investigation" that was done by those under the guise of a scientific
organization.  The data is very poor, including the photographic evidence.
There is a lot more to this, and it is very complex.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 00:54:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
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 > From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
 > Date: 10 Aug 91 21:03:47 GMT
 > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
 > Message-ID: <1KR}[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber
 > as
 > Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more --
 > and you
 > said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible'
 > by
 > UFOlogists.  You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but
 > you
 > still don't say why.  Can you tell the net what you think he was up to?
 > And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion?

I can't speculate on what he is up to.  However, his actions towards his
following were very wrong, in my opinion.  He makes his grand statement about
getting out of the business because of the researchers in the business.  I
don't believe that this is his real motivation.  I have always been a strong
detractor of anyone in UFOlogy dealing with abductees unless they are
qualified medically.  There is just too much emotional damage as a result of
the experience.  These support groups don't seem to address the trauma
effectively.  Streiber had a large following and just dumped them high and
dry.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 01:44:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 60


 > From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
 > Date: 11 Aug 91 05:49:53 GMT
 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > I second this!  Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some*
 > facts, I don't find you very reasonable.  I'll *bet* your main objection
 > to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really
 > AREN'T evil.  At least that classification would be too simplistic
 > according to him.  Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with
 > aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans.  I find that argument
 > very thin and simplistic.

Before you go off half-cocked, be sure that you know who is saying what.  I DO
NOT assert that the aliens are eating humans.  I find this to be ridiculous.
I have already posted something to the net about Strieber.  I have many
stories that I could tell, but it is not something for public consumption.
Just suffice it to say that there is a considerable amount of controversy,
including allegations of deception made by some of Strieber's followers, that
attest to his character.  Some areas that you might find interesting to poke
around in is Strieber's connection to the occult.  I have a transcript of him
appearing on Oprah Winfrey prior to his first book on the subject of abduction
being published.  In this, he is clearly involved in the occult.  As I have
said before, responsible investigators of the UFO phenomenon try to keep their
personal beliefs out of the data.  Strieber has not done this.  Alleged
abductee victims require professional help in dealing with their trauma, not
some casual coffee clique.

 > Andrew, my opinion of Strieber is mainly from reading his three books
 > (and what I've heard from others to a lesser extent).  I've heard it
 > said that he's working for the government and affiliated with deceptive
 > government agents (Moore? Can't remember).  If this person is the
 > "Wilfred Stone" character in _Majestic_ I think I can forgive him. :-)
 > I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's
 > generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's
 > going on.  His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher
 > approach to this thing than a lot of people.  In my opinion, more people
 > involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.  The problem is if
you are living in the real world, Strieber's writing and so-called theories
are not enough to cut it.  The problem is that we are dealing with real
people, with real problems, not someone who is a prolific science fiction
writer writing about something that has no basis in actual fact.  If Strieber
is, in fact, an abductee, then that is one thing, but to stand out as an
expert or authority on what the phenomenon represents is totally outrageous.
The problem with abduction research is that there are too many self-styled
"experts" out there leading people around by the nose without having any real
idea of what they are dealing with.  As for UFO researchers, serious
researchers, are more thoughtful and spend their time on real investigation.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hello?  Hello-o!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 01:29:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 38


 > From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
 > Date: 11 Aug 91 05:26:32 GMT
 > Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


Here is my suggested reading list:

The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects
Edward Ruppelt
Ruppelt was the head of Project Blue Book in the 50s

All books by Donald Keyhoe

The UFO Controversy in America
Dr. David Jacobs
This book is an excellent reference work

Clear Intent
Barry Greenwood

Above Top Secret
Timothy Good

UFO Crash at Roswell
Kevin Randle/Don Schmitt
Excellent read!

Hope this gets you started.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 11:39:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 78

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>Before you go off half-cocked, be sure that you know who is saying what.  I DO
>NOT assert that the aliens are eating humans.  I find this to be ridiculous.

Sorry about that.  I stand corrected.

>Some areas that you might find interesting to poke
>around in is Strieber's connection to the occult.  I have a transcript of him
>appearing on Oprah Winfrey prior to his first book on the subject of abduction
>being published.  In this, he is clearly involved in the occult.

So what?  He's spoken of his experiences with Wiccan (?) religious
organizations in one of his books.  I don't see a New Age influence in
his UFO writings other than that.  You can be involved in occult and
still be rational about being abducted.

> As I have
>said before, responsible investigators of the UFO phenomenon try to keep their
>personal beliefs out of the data.  Strieber has not done this.

*What* data?  All he *HAS* is personal beliefs.  He's not a UFO
investigator;  he's someone who's supposedly had an abduction experience
and has attempted to relate it AS HE SEES IT. I would assume that a good
percentage of information would reside in his subconscious, so his
personal beliefs would almost certainly have been shaped by visitor
experiences that he can't consciously remember.  In other words, if he
says "X" happened and I think it means "Y" he may be right because this
is what he feels about that (without immediately knowing why).

> Alleged
>abductee victims require professional help in dealing with their trauma, not
>some casual coffee clique.

Again, give me an example of his missdealings with abduction victims.  I
find it hard to believe that many people out there know more about
what's going on (and are willing to share it).  Certainly, he's not a
doctor, but most doctors have never been abducted.  I'd like to see an
instance where he's over-stepped his bounds of authority.

>You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.  The problem is if
>you are living in the real world, Strieber's writing and so-called theories
>are not enough to cut it.  The problem is that we are dealing with real
>people, with real problems, not someone who is a prolific science fiction
>writer writing about something that has no basis in actual fact.

Oh, come on!  You sitting here telling me he has fabricated his whole
story without giving me one lick of proof is *much* worse than the story he's
presented:  at least he's made significant attempts to substantiate
things.  He's taken lie detector tests, given dates and places, given
information on how to contact him, etc.  I still don't see an instance
where he's tried to deceive people.

>If Strieber
>is, in fact, an abductee, then that is one thing, but to stand out as an
>expert or authority on what the phenomenon represents is totally outrageous.
>The problem with abduction research is that there are too many self-styled
>"experts" out there leading people around by the nose without having any real
>idea of what they are dealing with.

Does anybody know more than anyone else?  I'd say you're equally in the
dark about this as he is (no offense :-).  I don't think you're going to
be succesful portraying Strieber as a blood-sucking cult leader.  Up to
this point, I see his work as an honest attempt to explain what is
happening to him and others.  I've seen no evidence to the contrary and
*you don't present any*.  To scoff at him and call him a phoney without
backing it up with something other than opinion is far worse than
anything he's done.

>As for UFO researchers, serious
>researchers, are more thoughtful and spend their time on real investigation.

And serious researcher back things up with evidence.  Please provide us
with some regarding Strieber.

>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ego.uh.cwru.edu!manfredi
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 16:11:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Image Analysis Center, Univ. Hospitals of Cleveland"
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: ego.uh.cwru.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Trey Wedge) writes:
> Has anyone seen the MJ-12 or Project Majestic text from Cooper here,
>  or somewhere? A better question is... has anyone saved it?

   Q:  Are you referring to Bill Cooper here?  If so, the *best* authority on
       him (IMHO) is Mary Ann Hawk, co-director of the Cleveland UFOlogy Pro-
       ject in Cleveland, Ohio.  She has attended conferences and seminars
       (on UFOs and psychotronics) all over the world, and as a consequence has
       come across Mr. Cooper and/or his material very often.  She is always
       happy to share.  If you would like further information on Ms. Hawk or
       C.U.P., please E-mail me.

>  A friend who is not on the net wants a copy of something that
>  I had seen on the net in alt.conspiracy about a year ago, about
>  the Project Majestic and links to the FBI CIA etc.
>
>  Anyone have any info? Please reply by E-mail if possible.

   FYI:  Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference* source on
         ^^^^^^^^
         MJ-12.  He wrote the book after interviewing many people involved with/
         related to the project.

No disclaimer.  WE'RE ALL ONE.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro
From: [e-mail] (Andy Ormsby)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 15:17:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news service)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andrew Ormsby)
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Aug 91 08: 46:37 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:

> But you can disprove evolution by
> presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
> such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
> there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
> evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).

OK. Disprove evolution.

Andy Ormsby, [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  needles, implants, tissue samples
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 16:54:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>>
>>I think Strieber also says in "Communion" that the same thing happens to
>>his son. When he takes his kid to a pediatrician, the doctor looks up the
>>kids nose and says he dosent see anything abnormal. Just some openings in
>>the upper part of the nasal cavity which seem to be common in kids.
>>You are then supposed to wonder, as a thinking reader, why the hell is it
>>common for kids to have needle holes in the top of their nasal cavity?
>
>I haven't read anything by Strieber, but in "Intruders" Budd Hopkins says
>that a doctor told him that a lot of kids have holes there.
>
>--
>  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
>  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
>  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")


  Thanks Jim. Im misquoting again. I read the two books "Communion" and
"Intruders" in rapid succession over a boring summer weekend last year.
I sometimes get my references confused.

   Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 17:21:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur) writes:

           [... introductory statement deleted ...]

>As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts
>of dogs running around.  Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things.  There
>did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers
>taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers.
>Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected,
>although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund).  These dogs are not only
>highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place
>in startlingly few generations.  If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a
>poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8?

No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of
natural selection does not exist.  Your argument is a strawman.

The breeding of dogs is nothing more than refining and seperating existing
genetic traits.  No new species are created.  By remixing all of the
domesticated dogs in the correct proportions you would obtain the same mongrel
wild dog that was the ancestor of all our domestic dogs of today.  There has
not been any transformation here.  This is nothing but a shifting around of
pre-existing sets of genes.

This argument only demonstrates that selection among existing traits is
possible.  No one denies this fact.

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 05:59:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
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William Coyne writes:

>It may not be airtight but its far better than the alternative scientific
>theories.  Apart from Lamarkianism (which is still a form of evolution
>are they any other scientific theories which compete with neodarwinian
>evolution.

  Just so you know, we've moved the discussion to talk.origins where it
belongs.
  Also, in response to the energetic person who just had to try and bait me
(no offense taken, by the way) I am not attempting to discredit evolution
and replace it with another theory -- for starters, as William here points
out, there is no theory that can compete with evolution, and I don't claim
to have one!!!
  All I'm interested in is getting the evolutionists to put forward the
solutions to problems that anti-evolutionists have raised.  Virtually every
book I've read for or against evolution fails to take every aspect of a
problem into account.  I have never seen a full treatment of a problem
presented.  Obviously I haven't read all the material available, and so I
want those who are qualified to present that information on a public forum.
If it's all being done before and people are sick of it, then so be it --
give it to me through e-mail.
  In summary then: my aim is not to push an anti-evolution line.  Rather,
I'm simply acting as a Devil's avocate so that I can get some solid answers,
not wishy-washy ones.

<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
<  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
<  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
<  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
<  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
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From: [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 07:32:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au


  Richard, I am not a Christian.  Please don't lump everyone who has doubts
about evolution into the creationist box.  It's an insult both to me and
those who *are* Christians.

<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
<  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
<  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
<  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
<  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!timbuk!shamash!duke!jrd
From: [e-mail] (john r douglas  x6668)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Summary: Here we go again!
Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 18:11:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (john r douglas  x6668)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: CDC, Arden Hills, MN
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1695 sci.skeptic:13706 alt.paranormal:2461

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(Philip J Stephens) writes:

>> But you can disprove evolution by
>> presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
>> such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
>> there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
>> evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).

Andrew Responds..

>OK. Disprove evolution.

Andrew, below is the usual response to your question.

The most common argument, after the one of *faith*, is this simple
demonstration:

         Critter A                                       Critter B
            <------- Show us the intermediate critter -------->

And upon critter AB being found the challenge becomes:

      Critter A                                      Critter AB
            <------- Show us the intermediate critter -------->

If indeed Philip has *proof* of his theories, I would
appreciate quantitive proof of the existemce of
*Creationism* and we can evaluate that. What usually happens
is some vague attack on a minor point they extract from their
reading of evolution.

John
to win by default.
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
*                    * A round man cannot be    *
* John Douglas       * expected to fit in a     *
* Arden Hills, MN    * square hole right away.  *
* Control Data Corp. * He must be given time    *
*                    * to adjust his shape.     *
*                    *     - Mark Twain -       *
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
* Note to resident net PC talk nazi: Please     *
* substitute critter for man in above reference.*
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!samsung!umich!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081
From: [e-mail] (The Xanadian)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ExcuuUUuuse meee pleeease... I have a problem...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 22:11:10 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 12


   A while back (a looong while back), I received a letter from someone.
I replied and was anxiously waiting a reply back.  Well, needless to say,
that account is now gone and all of the stuff in it.  If the reply was
there, I am going to be verry angry.

   Boy I love computers.  >:-/

   The old account was [e-mail] (The Doctor).  It had to
do with the dangers (?) of meeting aliens.  If the person with whom I
was discussing this is reading this now, PLEASE IN THE NAME OF GOD respond.
Thank you for your time.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081
From: [e-mail] (The Xanadian)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hello? Hello-o! (answer to his last question, if u r interested)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 22:07:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric
Herrera) says:
>
>Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"?

  I believe a "Xian" is supposed to be an abbreviation for Christian.

  I don't really know what that has to do with aliens, tho...  where did
you see it here?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081
From: [e-mail] (The Xanadian)
Newsgroups: misc.misc,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: SURVEY #2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 23:08:03 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 86
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>
Xref: ns-mx misc.misc:5040 alt.alien.visitors:1698 alt.paranormal:2465


   Here's my responses to my own questions.  Ain't that quaint????? :-E)

In article <[e-mail]>, The Xanadian
<[e-mail]> says:
>
>
>19.  Name 5 of your favorite movies.
Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (most triumphant dOOd)
Back to the Future
Star Trek 4
Robin Hood-- Prince of Thieves
Terminator 2 (ya, mr shwartzenegger is no girlie-man)
>19a.  Name your most favorite RECENT movie.
Robin Hood (duh!)

>20.  What political party (if any) do you belong to?
Republican..... MAYBE! >:-|
>
>21.  Name 5 _modern_ tunes (if any) (since 1988) that you like.
>     (followup to #5.)
"The Promise"  When in Rome
"Enjoy the Silence"  Depeche Mode <<<<<<====== all time favorite
"Lovesong"  The Cure
"Dont Worry Be Happy"  BoBby McFerrin :-)
"Wind of Change"  Scorpions
>
>22.  Do you belong to any clubs/organizations?
Sssoitannly! (yes)
>22a.  If YES, then name no more than five of them.
Society for Creative Anachronisms
Naval ROTC (blows 'em all away!)
UMaine Blade Society
>
>23.  Y/N/M Do you think, or, do you consider yourself creative? (*) How?
>     (clarify a Maybe)
Yes
>
>24.  Name your favorite _type_ or style of music, if any.  If more than
>     one, name them.
Pop rock--the underdogs mostly, Enya's stuff, classical, soul
>
>25.  Name your favorite form(s) of entertainment.
Frigging around on the computer, FENCING (ya), TV, books.
>25a.  What type of movie/TV show do you prefer the most?  Comedy?  Drama? Etc.
Comedy, Adventure, Fantasy
>
>26*  Assume you are on a planet with no name (followup to number 9).  What
>     name would you give it--
>26a* ...if it was a desert planet?       Sahara
>26b* ...if it was a tropical planet?     Tropica (I suppose...)
>26c* ...if it was a frozen planet?       Brrrr... (no really-- arctica)
>26d* ...if it were just like Earth (except there are no people but you and
>        some others..no pollution, roads, buildings, etc.)?
Heh heh.  (i like this one)  Xanadu.
>26e* If a new civilization was to be established here, what would you do
>     to help it along?  Or, rather, what part(s), if any, would you take
>     in the starting of this community?
   I would just like to lead the expedition there.  Once there, I would
only ask that its name be (you guessed it) and that I would have a
decent place to live.  If asked to lead the planet for a while I may.
More than likely I would help to build houses for the people of this new
planet.  Other things but I am running out of time...
>
>27. Do you or have you ever held a position of leadership to any degree?
>    (have you ever led people)
Absolutely!  Many times, in fact
>
>28. What games do you like to play, if any?
Nintendo, Canasta & other card games, chess (sometimes..havent for a whil
>
>29. Followup to number 8:  If this person promoted over you was of EQUAL
>    competence and ability as you, would you be upset?    Maybe
>29a* If this person was of another sex or race? (remember that a * means
>     the question is optional!)  Here, I'd rather not say...
>
>30* Truly one of the most debated moral(?) dilemmas in history-- What do
>    you think about abortion?  (remember the *)
   I think abortion should be allowed if the mother is in danger of any
type (especially of her father.. one of my anxieties!)  Otherwise, I am
relatively against it.  But if someone wants to do it, it's a free
country.  I still think it's a bit disgusting.


   Have fun piddling around with my questions.  Don't take 'em _too_
seriously, and don't take 'em _too_ jokingly either.
Path: ns-mx!umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
From: [e-mail] (Zachary Harman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Reply to 'Web of Conspiracy'....ALIEN PLOT??!?!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 01:47:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA
Lines: 14

There was a time in my life when I was convinced of this whole
alien plot.  Now however, I am very skeptical of it all.  After
reading Don Allen's four-part "Web of Conspiracy" posting, I am
dissapointed.  Can anyone possibly believe that something so
fictional is really going on here?

I'm not saying it's a lie.  I wouldn't be overly suprised if it
was true.  But _ALOT_ of doubt exists in my mind and we all better
hope it's a lie.  If what I read WAS the truth.....


Then GOD bless us all...

(What does everyone else think about this???)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hello? Hello-o! (answer to his last question, if u r interested)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 02:30:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Xanadian) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric
>Herrera) says:
>>
>>Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"?
>
>  I believe a "Xian" is supposed to be an abbreviation for Christian.
>
>  I don't really know what that has to do with aliens, tho...  where did
>you see it here?

I think I saw it in a post about all of that "How life began an Earth"
stuff.  The writer ended his article with "Anyway that's what the Xians
say" or something to that effect.
--
......................................................................
  ___            :  Eric P. Herrera            :  My opinions only...
 (__ '     .     :  Metaphor Computer Systems  :  Don't blame Metaphor
 /    ,_  ,  _   :  Mountain View, CA          :.......................
(___)/ (_/(_(_,  :  [e-mail]
......................................................................
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I'm part Apache...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 02:34:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 9
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

...so when is that New Mexico field trip taking place???

--
......................................................................
  ___            :  Eric P. Herrera            :  My opinions only...
 (__ '     .     :  Metaphor Computer Systems  :  Don't blame Metaphor
 /    ,_  ,  _   :  Mountain View, CA          :.......................
(___)/ (_/(_(_,  :  [e-mail]
......................................................................
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: OH Krill intro/README
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 16:54:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>Aside from the William Milton Cooper material, these 4 files are
>considered to be highly controversial in the field of UFOlogy. The
>"author" of this work, "O. H. Krill" is believed to have been a joint
>effort of John Grace and John Lear. As the story goes, this file was
>put together (according to sources close to John Lear) to "smoke out
>the dis-informants in the field".

The way I heard it, it was put together to see if Cooper would incorporate
it into his story as material he had allegedly seen himself.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 17:32:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 74
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1703 alt.conspiracy:6579

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

[Dulce papers summary]

>of crystalline metal, pure gold crystal, and what looks like
>either a genetic or metallurgical diagram or chart. Also attached
>is what looks like an x-ray diffraction pattern and a diagram of
>hexagonal crystals, with a comment that they are best for
>electrical conduction.

There was a report in the newspaper last week about attempts to produce a
high-temperature superconductor by doping buckminsterfullerene, a carbon
molecule which looks like a soccer ball -- hexagons and pentagons.

>     Let's change direction for a moment. One individual by the
>name of Lew Tery has been working on some ideas regarding UFOs and
>geomagnetic anomalies. I will go into what he has discovered
>(although the concept of the relationship is not new) and let you
>judge that for yourself.
>     After purchasing aeromagnetic and gravitational anomaly maps
>from the United States Geological Survey, it becomes evident that
>there was indeed a valid connection between these areas and UFOs.
>Mr. Tery gave a lecture in Arizona about that relationship, and
>was subsequently harassed by the FBI, and told that the
>information is "sensitive." Mr. Tery took the hint and declined to
>talk publicly about it to the degree that he had been doing.
>     Both the aeromagnetic and gravitational (Bougier Gravity)
>maps indicate basic field strength, as well as areas of high and
>low field strength. Interestingly enough, the areas of maximum and
>minimum field strength have the following:
>
>       o  All have frequent UFO sightings.
>       o  All are either on Indian Reservations, government
>          land, or the government is trying to buy up the land.
>       o  Many of them, especially where several are clustered
>          together, are suspected bases areas and/or areas
>          where mutilations and abductions have historically
>          taken place.
>
>     In these observations, Mr. Tery has gone far, but he has gone
>a little farther in noting that there are times when the UFOs are
>seen in these areas. Through painstaking research, Mr. Tery found
>that the sightings, as well as many abductions and mutilations,
>occur:
>       o  On the new moon or within two days before the new
>          moon.
>       o  On the full moon or within two days before the full
>          moon.
>       o  At the perihelion (moon closest to earth) or within
>          two days before the perihelion.

If it wouldn't be for the "weird" aspects, i.e. the abductions and
mutilations, I'd be inclined to hypothesize that the gravitational
anomalies represent geological formations which, when stressed by the
moon's gravity, create lights by piezoelectric means.  Refer to Michael
Persinger's work on "earthquake lights."  Persinger also believes that such
emissions affect the mind, causing the hallucination of being abducted.
Unfortunately it doesn't explain physical traces of abduction, but it could
explain some cases.

I'm not sure whether the moon's gravity is strong enough to create the
necessary stress though.  The Old Farmer's Almanac seems to think that the
moon could cause earthquakes, but I haven't heard the claim from any other
source.

Tom Bearden also has a theory relating electromagnetism, gravity, and
psychic phenomena that could (if true) apply here, but it's too complex to
go into in this article.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 19:56:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 139
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1704 alt.conspiracy:6580

Part 3 contains several statements which have been extremely
sensationalized.  When distributing the file to people I don't know very
well, I usually annotate them to prevent anyone with insufficient
background (i.e., complete newcomers to the field) from getting excited
about them.

I also have a few comments on other parts of this section.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
[attempts at psychically investigating mutilations]

While these reports are fascinating, I wonder how much exposure to the
field the psychics had before being asked to undertake this task.  It would
be most interesting to see what a psychic with a good record of success,
but no exposure to UFOlogy in general or mutilations in specific, had to
say about them.

The names and places mentioned would also be interesting to check out.
Unfortunately I'm too far from the center of all the action to do it.

>     At this point, I will put some references and excerpts from
>some volumes that I believe are relevant to all the things we've
>been talking about. Where I feel it is applicable, I will comment
>on them.

And I will comment on them further. :-)

>"Extra-Terrestrials Among Us"
>
>     (p8) JANAP-146 specifies up to 10 years in prison and $10,000
>in fines for anyone in government service who makes unauthorized
>public statements about UFO phenomena. The British Official
>Secrets Act makes similar provisions.

Although I'm not familiar with the acts in question, I would feel
reasonably safe guessing that they were intended to prevent the spread of
panic if the idea that UFOs were hostile foreign (human) vehicles should
arise.

>     (p16) On September 14, 1978, a UFO as big as an ocean liner
>flew over Italy, and over Rome on the 15th and 16th.
>     Comment: This was two weeks before Pope John Paul I was found
>dead under suspicious circumstances. He was killed between
>September 28-29. Autopsy was refused. It was rumored he intended
>to reveal the Fatima message of 1917.

The suspiciousness (?) of the circumstances is open to interpretation.  The
statement "He was killed" is uncalled for in my opinion.

>     (p24) Dr. Brian T. Clifford (Pentagon) announces on October
>5, 1982, that contact between U.S. citizens and extraterrestrials
>on their vehicles is illegal. Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code
>of Federal Regulations (adopted July 16, 1969, before the first
>manned lunar landing) says that anyone guilty of this becomes a
>wanted criminal to be jailed for one year and fined $5,000. The
>NASA administrator is empowered to determine WITH OR WITHOUT A
>HEARING that a person has been "ET-exposed" and impose
>INDETERMINATE quarantine under armed guard, which cannot be broken
>even by court order.

I don't know what context Dr. Clifford's statement was made in, but the
intent of the original law was to prevent contamination by lunar microbes
while such things were still considered to be a possibility.  (The original
law said something like 'any vehicle exposed to an extraterrestrial
environment', not 'extraterrestrials or their vehicles.')  If anyone has
the full text of Dr. Clifford's statement, please post it.  This is
precisely the sort of quoting-out-of-context that I was complaining about
at the beginning of my article.

>     (p25) Records of the 687 B.C. battle between the Assyrians
>and the Hebrews indicate that "a blast from heaven" reduced the
>bodies of 185,000 Assyrians to ashes but left their clothes
>intact.

Microwaves?

>     (p145) Morris K. Jessup died under mysterious circumstances
>after a copy of his book "Case for the UFO" was sent to the Chief
>of the Office of Naval Research (ONR) in Washington.

Ugh.  More of this damned sensationalizing of well-known facts!  Anyone
interested in the full story of the life and death of Dr. Jessup should
read "The Philadelphia Experiment" by Berlitz and Moore.

To summarize, however, Dr. Jessup died *years* after the book was sent.
Although the strange turn his life took after its publication probably
contributed to his depression, there were much more immediate mundane
factors as well.  There are unanswered questions, such as why did he call
someone hours earlier and say he was coming to visit him to discuss what he
thought was the solution to the Philadelphia Experiment mystery, and how
did he drive his car out to the park when he was so drunk, but that's
not my point here.  The statement quoted above makes it sound like the
government immediately sent out a hit squad or something.  Completely
untrue.

>     (p150) Alleged alien comment in annotated edition of "Case
>for the UFO": "Men frozen helpless make good prey."

I haven't read the book, but given the fact that the annotator was Carlos
Allende, the above statement probably refers to the frozen-in-spacetime
phenomenon resulting from bungled dematerializations.  However, Bill Cooper
also says something about the aliens giving a cryogenics demonstration
using some government officials as test subjects, then refusing to unfreeze
them unless the government cooperated with the aliens.

>     (p151) Dr. James E. McDonald thought that the Federal Power
>Commission was evading the evidence concerning UFO involvement in
>the total power failure that paralyzed New York on July 13, 1965,
>and dared to say so in front of a Congressional committee.
>
>     (p152) On June 13, 1971, James E. McDonald was found dead
>under mysterious circumstances, shot through the head with a
>pistol by his side.

I'm not sure what's being implied here, since there's nearly six years
between events!  The only UFO involvement in the great blackout that I'm
aware of was a ball of light spotted over a substation.  Does anyone know
anything else about the "mysterious" circumstances of McDonald's death?

>     (p159) George Adamski, contactee in the 1950s had a special
>government passport. Possible CIA disinformation agent.

Interesting, but can anyone verify?  (I've also heard that Wendelle Stevens
is trying to resurrect the Adamski scenario.  Very weird!)

>     (p208) It is odd that among the viruses there are some that
>look like UFOs, like T. Bacteriophage. Do some UFO have the
>ability to operate in the micro-dimension of viruses? Comment: In
>the discipline of Yoga is noted the ability to become large or
>small.

What on Earth was the point in making this speculation?

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 20:10:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1705 alt.conspiracy:6581

Although the Searle device bears a resemblance to other free-energy
devices, particularly those of Bruce DePalma (though Searle's is *much*
more powerful), a British alternative-technology researcher who recently
tracked down Mr. Searle found that he could produce neither the device nor
any first-hand witnesses to its operation.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 20:13:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1706 alt.conspiracy:6582

I forgot to mention on my first commentary that Sirius isn't located in
Orion, but I hope you all knew that.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Web of Conspiracy intro/README
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 03:39:19 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1707 alt.conspiracy:6583

Thanks for posting that.  I hadn't heard of it before.  Although I dislike
channeled information, and the "underground base" theories, it will no
doubt prove interesting reading.  I'm sure I'll have comments on it as I
did on the Krill files, but since I haven't read it before I'll need time
to think it over.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 04:22:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 28


    But if you tell me the Earth is being visited by beings from
    another world, I'm going to require good proof before I'll
    believe that beause it is very remarkable, and the
    consequences of believing it if it's untrue are large...
    ...But for me, I'm going to withhold my belief until I see
    some evidence other than anecdotes and wishful thinking.

... no offense, M14494 (your name didn't make it on the article), but
the testimony of witnesses is admissible.  Clearly, the testimony of a
*single* witness is shaky, but the testimony of many witnesses - who
at least appear not to be connected with one another - must at least
be listened to, not discarded out-of-hand.  (Indeed, in criminal
cases, a witness is often *required*.)

   BTW, wasn't the Carl Sagan you quoted the same one who dusted off
his nuclear-winter theory, substituted "oil fires" for "a-bomb fires",
and went on national TV to peddle it again this spring?  I guess this
warm summer is all in our imaginations....

    I think *nothing* happened at Roswell.

... curious; even the government says something happened at Roswell --
though they say it was a weather baloon.  (I guess you haven't held
the weather balloon in your hand either, so I suppose you don't even
believe that! :-)

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Movie "Communion"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 06:59:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 33

I saw the movie like a year ago when it came out, and IMHO, it didn't
live up to the book...(But isn't it always that way?)

What was the major cause of this disappointment was that it felt more
like a Horror/Suspense flick than a documentary.  I came into the theatre
expecting to see an intelligent documentary/story.

I was shocked when they used the cliched 'creature cam' effect and what
topped it off is they first used this when the kid entered his room while
it was dark and said something to the effect of "Dad, I feel something
strange here"...HES A KID! ITS A DARK ROOM! OF COURSE YOUR GONNA BE FREAKED!
I always felt something was going to pop out and grab me from the dark. It's a
kid thing.

Anyway, the rest of the movie I thought was fine until they turned it into
a horror movie at the haloween (sp?) scene.  Yes it was creepy at most points
that Strieber hallucinated at certain points in his life about the aliens.
That was fine and believable.  What took away from that believability is
the scene where the praying mantis popped out of the box...How convenient
that a creature you so rarely see (if ever) during haloween as a monster
pop up and scare the living daylights out of Strieber.

The argument that it is just a movie does not stand since this is supposedly
a true story...

These are my opinions, and if you want to flame me, fine. As long as its an
valid point, I don't mind being corrected, in fact I welcome any constructive
critisicm...

/****************************************************************************\
Steve Graziano    >                Ayumma yumma....
[e-mail]          >you can say it too!
\****************************************************************************/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 04:31:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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[e-mail] (Andy Ormsby) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (
>
> > But you can disprove evolution by
> > presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples o
> > such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
> > there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
> > evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).
>
> OK. Disprove evolution.
>
> Andy Ormsby, [e-mail]

        This should be interesting-- will Philip cite classic Creationist
examples that really _confirm_ Evolutionary theory? Will he point to
anomalous examples and claim that these are the death knell for natural
selection? Will he point to an unresolved question and claim that, because
it's unresolved, it's unresolvable? And what alternative will he propose in
its place?


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bernie!gaudi!nic.csu.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!rice!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!alpinist
From: [e-mail] (David Butler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 91 22:40:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: alpinist@eskimo (David Butler)
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE, WA.<=
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1711 sci.skeptic:13718 alt.paranormal:2467

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:
>Looking at the similarities
>between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft
>biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their
>DNA.
>  It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
>like any other theory, is not possible.

This is a handy argument.  Make the definition of proof so hard that you can say
that evolution cannot be proved thus it doesn't exist.  I suppose that
nothing short of living samples of every species that has ever lived so
that you can definitely show a biological chain back to single celled
organisms is enough to convince a skeptic of evolution.  Too bad the
fossil record (which isn't bad) is the best we can do.

>But you can disprove evolution by
>presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
>such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
>there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
>evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).

I would very much like to see this evidence.  I have followed some of
the debates on the net and read some creationist literature and have yet
to see EVEN ONE example of proof against evolution.  Though, I have
heard more than once that such proof exists.  (Gaps in the fossil record
is not proof - or even a very good argument)

>  The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
>means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.

I agree.  But so far there is not one other explanation that makes any
sense or fits any of the data.

--
****************************************************************************
* Dave                          *               The Alpinist               *
* [e-mail] *            DARE to be stoopid!           *
****************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!ipc1.lat.oz.au!stephens
From: [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 06:56:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au

John Douglas writes:

>If indeed Philip has *proof* of his theories, I would
>appreciate quantitive proof of the existemce of
>*Creationism* and we can evaluate that. What usually happens
>is some vague attack on a minor point they extract from their
>reading of evolution.

  Aiiieee.  Why does everyone assume that I am a Creationist?
  I'm not assuming that the anti-evolution arguments I've heard about are
actually correct disproofs of the theory.  Unfortunately my first article
does make it sound like I do, mainly because my emotions got the better of
me at that point.  Ah well.
  I'm beginning to feel that it's a waste of time attempting to bring up
points raised in anti-evolution books; presumably you've got responses to
the all, even though I haven't seen them all yet.  If I'm just going to
get the standard attitude "it's been done" without any actual elaboration,
then I might as well not bother using the network as a means to gain answers.
  Of course, there is one simple way of evaluating evolution once and for
all.  Give me a very detailed mathematical model, I'll implement it as a
computer program, and we'll see how good it is at generating life-forms.

<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
<  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
<  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
<  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
<  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question on significant dates
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 16:42:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 108

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe
>Mastroianni) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(Eddie Tuggle) writes:
>> >Is Whitley Strieber generaly considered to be an athority, reliable?
>I have read Communion
>> >and found it quite interesting.
>...
>>   I wouldn't personally consider Mr. Strieber to be an authority. He is
>>   simply the highest paid. Im not sure what "reliable" means. If it
>>   means, "should we believe what he says", then , certainly not.
>...
>>   Joe
>
>Personally, I've taken everything Strieber says or writes with a largish
>grain of salt ever since I saw him interviewed CBS Nightwatch. He was
>plugging one of his books (might have been _Communion_) and talking about
>how his editor ran into a couple of the "little people" checking out his
>latest volume in a New York City bookstore. Gimme a break!
>
>Craig

I dont know what to make of the "Editor runs into aliens at the bookstore"
story. Strieber mentions it in Transformation. A follow-on book by a friend
of Strieber also recounts that story in more detail through an interview
with that editor. The editor also says that he came home one day to find
the manuscript for "Communion" scattered all around his bedroom. Truly
weird stuff. If any of this is true Im packing my bags and moving to
Tibet.

I think one of the big problems with all of these stories is that they
are all extremely outlandish. These are not stories that jive with "normal"
life. People tell you they have bad dreams. Under hypnosis they tell you
more details about the bad dreams. So? Does hypnosis validate the dream
as real? What is real? If you were there would you have seen the same
weird event, or, would you just see somebody dreaming?

Belief in any of this stuff requires an attitude shift that some of us are
more willing to make than others. The all-too-willing are gullible. They
will be tricked by any ruse designed by man or beast. PT Barnum made a
good living off these people.

The not-willing are closed-minded bigots. They would rather nothing exist
that dosent fit into their pre-constructed model of the universe. They are
inflexible. These people start wars and always get beaten.

The in-between people are adaptable. They are skeptics. They are open-minded.
They are not ready to give up their internal models of reality without
a fight, but will yield to thorough explanation and "proof". Some of these
people will be tricked by hoax-ters. Some will remain skeptical. Some
will become believers -- but only after a lot of pain.

I think many of the abductees fall into the last category. They are unwilling
to say what has happened to them for fear of rebuke. The are afraid of the
incidents because they cant reconcile the weirdness in their life with
watching Johnny Carson and buying doughnuts from the grocery store. If
you believe the abduction event happens to people, it seems easy to believe
the casual abductee would assume he/she was hallucinating.  How many times
have you heard people say, "It was like a dream...everything moved in
slow motion, I saw the oncoming car and steered away at the last minute..."
Really bad things become hallucinations. War veterans know this. Victims
of violent crimes know this. Ask your Dad, or your uncle, or your brother
who has been in combat. Ask anyone who has ever said, "It was like a bad
dream" and meant it.

Hallucinations are not acceptable to us. We dont tell people in business
meetings we are having hallucinations. You'd better shut up about having
hallucinations before you get sent to Bellevue in a straight jacket.
We dont walk into a room full of people we dont know and
say, "Hi, Im Bob and Im having weird dreams about little orange people putting
needles into my brain how are you?"


Hallucinations about aliens raping you and making you see visions of the
whole world dying are acceptable in one place only. Here. Here in the
company of this narrow group of weirdos who speculate that something
in this strangeness means something. If you dont want to believe you are
losing your ability to reason, you hang out with these people. Some
of them are truly gullible and are here because they believe in
mutant hamsters who steal human souls. Some are here because they want
to see the gullible people fry in chicken fat. Some are here because
they have a genuine desire to not lose the comfort of standard human
existance.

I think Whitley Strieber has explained, to the best of his ability as a
writer, how he is going to keep a grip on his life. He may be going
over the "edge". He may be buying his own story a little too much. If
anything, his struggle to maintain a grip on his sanity is interesting.
To cast him as a spokesman for anyone who claims to have an abduction
experience is wrong. I have never seen him do this on TV or in his
books. Like I said, he is lucky to be able to make a really great
living off of his mental health exercizes. I really dont think
he speaks for anyone but himself.

You can speak for you. Strieber speaks for Strieber.

I speak for me.


Joe


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 17:04:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:
>>I'm familiar with abductee claims about having needles stuck into their
>>brain and/or having small BB-like implants; what I'm curious about is
>>has anyone who claims to have gone through this submitted to a CAT scan
>>or exploratory surgery to verify this? Or has any abductee ever died and
>>had a thorough autopsy done? Would be interested in the findings.
>
>Whitley Strieber has had some sort of scan done and some sort of objects
>appeared on it.  I don't know if any abductees have died yet, but it would
>be extremely interesting to check for implants when they do.  (Unless the
>aliens dematerialize them or something.)  I haven't heard about any
>exploratory surgery either.  Some sources (Cooper et. al.) say that the
>implants are located such that it would be extremely difficult to get to
>them.
>
>--
>  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         |  "Let's become
>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms  |   alive again."
>  37 Brook Street    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     |
>  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     |       --Yes


I wonder how many people there are in the world who have had one of
these encounter experiences?


Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!stephens
From: [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 15:34:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
Lines: 53
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1715 sci.skeptic:13723 alt.paranormal:2476

Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano writes:

>        This should be interesting-- will Philip cite classic Creationist
>examples that really _confirm_ Evolutionary theory? Will he point to
>anomalous examples and claim that these are the death knell for natural
>selection? Will he point to an unresolved question and claim that, because
>it's unresolved, it's unresolvable? And what alternative will he propose in
>its place?

  Hello Brian, we've tended to run headlong into each other on various
topics, haven't we?
  If you have been keeping abreast with talk.origin you will learn that I
have fallen prey to the age old problem of misinformation.  Seems that you
can't trust every author to provide an accurate set of facts, and being a
layman on the subject of evolution I was wooed over by an argument that
doesn't stand up to close scrutity.
  That's ok, we all learn from our mistakes.  Not that I'm suddenly a
convert to the theory of evolution, but I think I'll stick to arguments that
I feel comfortable with.

  I find it odd that everyone is trying to label me as a Creationist, since
I don't believe I even used a Creationist argument.  Never mind, labels mean
nothing to me anyhow.
  You want to know what my *personal* position is on evolution?  Shame on
your Brian, surely you can guess.  Have you forgotten all the lovely
arguments we were having in regards to consciousness a few months back?
  Like every other scientific theory in this world of ours, Evolution makes
the assumption that consciousness is a physical phenomena.  I have already
made my thoughts clear on what I think about that matter.
  I may not be qualified to put forward knowledgable arguments against
evolution, but I can sure as hell put up a fight when it comes to discussing
consciousness.  So far nobody has managed to knock down the possibility that
consciousness is a non-physical phenomena, and I see no reason to presume
that random mutations + natural selection is the best explanation for how
life arose on the earth.
  This is *not* a Creationist viewpoint, because I do not believe in the
Christian God.  And despite what you might believe, I do not like to skip
over facts that are clearly well verified.  I accept Quantum Mechanics
because it has never failed to this day, to name one obvious example.  The
only reason why I've hestitated with evolution is because I'm waiting for
scientists to present a model that can be verified through some sort of
mathematical/computer simulation.  Likewise for models of the brain.
  Of course, with my views on consciousness I tend to think that models for
both evolution and the brain will ultimately fail through simulation.  But
the truth of the matter won't be known for a few years yet (probably not for
another decade or so).

<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
<  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
<  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
<  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
<  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser
From: [e-mail] (Steve Reiser)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Move this topic --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 18:18:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1716 sci.skeptic:13724 alt.paranormal:2477


Please delete future discussion from ALT.PARANORMAL and add:

TALK.ORIGINS <----- newsgroup to discuss evolution vs. creation, etc.





--
Steve Reiser ([e-mail] or !uunet!pmafire!reiser)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem
From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MCORBIN address
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 21:50:12 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Lines: 13


    Sorry to post this here.

    I acan't get a reply to MCORBIN via the SMTP path
    that came attached to original message.

    I need an address that works.

    Thanks

    Mark

    [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca!westfall
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 21:51:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Maintenance)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University Computing Services
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Nntp-Posting-Host: mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca

SIn article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:
|> Josh Vander Berg writes:
|>
|> >Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely
|> >non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record
|> >does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's
|> >evolution from lower primates.
|>
|>   But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say
|> uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into
|> a species represented by a later fossil.  Looking at the similarities
|> between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft
|> biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their
|> DNA.  Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part
|> of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by
|> extrapolation and show that they are all viable.
|>   It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution,
|> like any other theory, is not possible.  But you can disprove evolution by
|> presenting evidence that contradicts the theory.  Many potential examples of
|> such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge
|> there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by
|> evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises).
|>   The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no
|> means trivial.  To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance.
|>
|> <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
|> <  Philip J. Stephens                ><   "Many views yield the truth."       >
|> <  Hons. student, Computer Science   ><   "Therefore, be not alone."          >
|> <  La Trobe University, Melbourne    ><   - Prime Song of the viggies, from   >
|> <  AUSTRALIA                         ><   THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper  >
|> </\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>

So let's hear it - what are some of these cases.....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!flosdorf
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Flosdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 23:23:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur) writes:
>
>           [... introductory statement deleted ...]
>
>>As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts
>>of dogs running around.  Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things.  There
>>did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers
>>taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers.
>>Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected,
>>although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund).  These dogs are not only
>>highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place
>>in startlingly few generations.  If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a
>>poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8?

Steve Warren answers:

>No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of
>natural selection does not exist.  Your argument is a strawman.
>
>The breeding of dogs is nothing more than refining and seperating existing
>genetic traits.  No new species are created.  By remixing all of the
>domesticated dogs in the correct proportions you would obtain the same mongrel
>wild dog that was the ancestor of all our domestic dogs of today.  There has
>not been any transformation here.  This is nothing but a shifting around of
>pre-existing sets of genes.
>
>This argument only demonstrates that selection among existing traits is
>possible.  No one denies this fact.
>

Well Steve, I thought I would respond to your posting even though
we work in the same area.

Just in case you are suggesting that no new species have ever
been directly observed to arise, I thought that I would present
a couple of examples. (I am not a *Biologist* and would love to
see other examples of speciation that have been recently
documented, expecially for animals. Any regular posters out there
who can contribute?)

  1) There are many experimentally documented cases of new species
     of plants arising through the process of allopolyploidy. This
     process can occur when two diploid species differ by some
     number of of chromosomal rearrangements. If their genome
     makeup is written as AA and BB, where A and B represent the
     structurally differentiated haploid sets, then an interspecific
     hybrid AB will encounter problems during meiosis, rendering it
     chromosomally sterile.

     All is not lost, however. Chromosome-number doubling is
     a process which occurs spontaneously in the somatic
     cells of plants. If this occurs in the AB hybrid,
     it can give rise to a tetraploid branch with reproductive
     flowers having a genomic makeup of AABB. Another
     possibility is for the diploid hybrid to produce unreduced
     diploid gametes. The combination of 2 unreduced diploid gametes
     yields a tetraploid zygote of AABB.

     The resulting allotetraploid is fertile, and has its own
     morphological, chemical and ecological properties different
     from either diploid parent species. Furthermore, the new
     allotetraploid is sterile with respect to even its closest
     diploid species. It therefore represents a new biological
     species which can continue to diverge further from its
     parental species.

  2) A six year experiment was performed with Drosaphila melanogaster
     in which a base population multiplied and then was
     separated into 2 populations. These 2 separated populations
     were  subjected to environments with different
     temperatures and humidity. At the end of the 6 years it
     was found that a significant amount of reproductive
     isolation had occurred between the 2 populations. The
     basis for the reproductive isolation was found to be both
     ethological(meaning that their courting/mating behaviors
     had changed as a result of chromosomal changes), and also
     cytoplasmic.

Reproductive isolation is the basis for determining biological
species. It is the link which connects micro-evolution to
macro-evolution. Once the gene pool is split, the 2 populations
are able to diverge to a much greater degree because no
remixing of genes can occur. Mutations that occur in one
population will not enter the gene pool of the other population.
If the mutation is not harmful, then the frequency of the occurrence
of the new gene can increase. This process, over longer periods of
time explains the lack of *smooth* transitions between the different
species observed today.


*Does anybody else out there have some good examples of directly
*observed speciation that they would like to share? I believe that
*some examples have been posted in the past before I started reading
*talk.o. Please post them if you have them...
*I would appreciate it. Thanks.

reference to 2)
  Kilias, G. and S. N. Alahiotis. 1982. Genetic studies on sexual
       isolation and hybrid sterility in long-term cage populations
       of Drosaphila melanogaster. Evolution 36:121-131.


-Stephen Flosdorf
Path: ns-mx!umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
From: [e-mail] (Zachary Harman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Summary: Greys are genetic productions of man.
Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 01:05:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: Web of Conspiracy
Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA
Lines: 64
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1720 alt.conspiracy:6598

It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the
whole Aliens thing is a big LIE.

It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!)


ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
-------------------------

After the war (WW II), Russia and England were the first to "dig around"
in Germany for its secrets.  Well, our good friends the British picked
up Hitler's FOO-FIGHTER technology. YES, UFO's are man made.  So, England
built a special base up in Canada to test its new found technology.  Well,
they crash one of the FOO-FIGHTERS in Roswell, NW.  Eisenhower went to Muroc
Air Force Base (Now Edwards Air Force Base) and made a deal with the British
, NOT THE ALIENS in 1952.  The deal was Nazi FOO-FIGHTER technology for
the H-Bomb plans.  So, we see that UFO sightings over the US really pick up
starting in 1952.  Our own government has been flying these saucers around.
THAT'S WHY THEY CRASH!  Do you really think an alien would crash one of its
own ships?  GET REAL.

Dulce, NM is our genetics lab.  That is where we, NOT THE ALIENS have been
"Creating" the Greys.  So, we let these Greys pilot the ships.  So they land
and everybody, including Whitley Streiber thinks they are from Zeta Reticuli
or some other bullshit place.  Streiber was "min controlled" by our good
old government, as bunches of other people have.

This all leads up to the big finale.....

Council for Foreign Relations/Illuminati

They goverment is going to stage a mock "ALIEN INVASION" so that they can
establish the NEW WORLD ORDER controlled by the Illuminati.  Remember at Malta
when Reagan told Gorbechov that if there was ever an alien invasion, the two
countries would have to unite tro defeat it?  WELL, IT'S COMING, BUT BY HUMANS
AND NOT BY ANY STRANGE ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE, EITHER.

Sure, there are aliens but they are peaceful.  Any race that is that advanced
technologically is also advanced spiritually.  There are no evil green lizards
from outer space.  Don't listen to what these misinformants are feeding you.
It's all a bunch of lies.  The truth is our government is using modified
Nazi FOO-FIGHTER technology and is genetically creating the "Greys" in Dulce.

THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS.......

I Repeat...

THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS.......

It's time to get the truth out in the open.

Get ready for something big really soon, folks.

Just remember what I told you.




IT'S THE GOVERNMENT.....NOT THE ALIENS...



-Zachary Harman

Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Move this topic --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 01:48:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1721 sci.skeptic:13735 alt.paranormal:2485

[e-mail] (Steve Reiser) writes:


>Please delete future discussion from ALT.PARANORMAL and add:

>TALK.ORIGINS <----- newsgroup to discuss evolution vs. creation, etc.

I agree!  This is the wrong newsgroup(s) for this topic and it doesn't
seem to be dieing.  Move it.
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_A_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Greeting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 02:04:08 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 5
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1722 alt.paranormal:2486 sci.skeptic:13737

I will not be permitted to post from my old account but will hope to return
on this or another computer in less than 15 days.
I'll leave you with this saying; Don't give up the ship.
Standard Disclaimer.
John.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 2/3 Crop Circles or Hieroglyphics!
Message-ID: <422800004@peg>
Date: 13 Aug 91 12:52:00 GMT
Lines: 93
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800004:000:5077
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!mcollinson    Aug 13 08:52:00 1991


/* Written 11:06 pm  May 18, 1991 by nexus in peg:nexus.newtimes */
/* ---------- "2/3 Crop Circles or Hieroglyphics!" ---------- */
One of the most intriguing mysteries of the decade has to be the
phenomena known as "crop circles".  They are known as "crop
circles" because the first reported cases, starting in 1976 in the
UK, were literally that - circles of flattened corn, or other
crops.  Since 1976, both the number and complexity of these
'circles', has increased dramatically.  No one knows exactly when
the first 'circle' appeared, but we do know that since serious
research first began in 1980, circles have literally popped up all
over the place.  For example, in 1987, 75 formations were
discovered; 110 in 1988; 305 in 1989; and over 600 last year
(1990).  Not only that, but what were originally circles 'evolved'
into complicated 'pictograms' as illustrated below.  Listed below
are some notes I made after sifting through masses of information
now becoming available on the subject.  I think the pictures of
the "crop circles' however, speak for themselves.
* The 'circles' range in size from 1 or 2m up to 70m in diameter.
* they 'appear' most often during mid-summer and are most commonly
found in southern England.  Other circles have been found in the
USSR, Italy, USA, Australia, Canada and Japan.  Most however, are
not as complex as those found in the UK last summer.
* It has been discovered that the heaviest concentration of these
'circles' falls within the famous "Wessex Triangle",  a well known
area rich in mystical associations, containing ancient stone
circles such as Avebury, Silbury Hill and Stonehenge.  This  area
also has a history of abnormally high UFO sightings.
* Several circles have been reported under high-voltage
electricity wires, leading to much discussion of electromagnetic
fields being the cause of the phenomena
* Several "circles" have been found to be in a straight "line",
observable only from the air.  Many have speculated on the
involvement of 'ley-lines' and changes in the Earth's magnetic
fields.
* Many people have seen "strange glowing lights" often orange in
colour, and other UFO phenomena  over fields prior to appearances
of circles.  Sometimes these sightings were days or weeks prior to
an appearance of a 'circle'.

INSIDE THE CIRCLES . . .

There is a large amount of information emerging that deals with
the "circles" themselves.  I have listed below some of the effects
of circles, as discussed by researchers.
a) strange high frequency "twittering" sounds.  These have been
recorded and analysed but are unexplainable
b) "jelly-like" substances have been recovered from several
circles
c) many researchers report feeling ill effects, such as headaches,
nausea upon entering some circles.  Dogs also are noticeably
affected by the circles, with several illnesses reported.
d) some dowsing society people report the 'dematerialising' and
'rematerialising' of certain objects, such as dowsing rods, wooden
pegs etc.
e) some researchers report "missing time" lapses during solo
investigations
f) there are many reports of blinding white "flashes" and what
appear to be electro-static 'crackling noises".  Many of these
occurred on cloudless days with multiple witnesses present.
g) analysis of plant samples taken from some circles shows
dramatic molecular change has occurred.
h) electro-magnetic effects have been experienced in many cases,
and some quite dramatically.  For example on Thursday, August 10,
1989 at 3.30pm when a BBC television crew were filming two
researchers in a 100 foot diameter circle near Avebury, Wiltshire.
The camera refused to function properly each time it entered the
circle, and several smaller circles nearby.  Even when elevated on
a crane over the edge of the circles, it would not work.  The crew
tried holding the camera outside the circle while the sound
engineer went inside.  As the camera rolled, and sound began
taping, a loud, shrill, warbling noise blasted into the sound
engineer's headset.  Upon leaving the circle the noise stopped
etc.  The noise was recorded and sent to the BBC sound experts for
analysis.  All the BBC experts were baffled by the strange sounds.
The camera was found to be completely defunct and had to be
rebuilt.  The event was shown on the BBC's "Daytime Live" program.
As the transmission went to air, the electric supply into the
whole studio complex was momentarily lost, and all telephones
ceased functioning.  Despite many varied and determined efforts to
solve this baffling puzzle, the mystery remains.  No doubt time
will tell!
 Written by  Duncan Roads

 REFERENCES:
"Crop Circles - The Latest Evidence" by Pat Delgado & Colin
Andrews. (Publ Bloomsbury UK) "Crop Circles 1990" by Michael
Chorost & Colin Andrews, Mufon UFO Journal #272, Dec 1990 "A Crop
of Circles" by Derek Elsom, New Scientist. 29 July 1989 "More
Circular Evidence" by Richard Beaumont. Kindred Spirit.
Vol.1.,No.8 pp25-28.  "Around and Around in Circles" from Time,
Sept 18,1989.  "Corn Circles" by John Haddington. Fountain
International News, #27.1990.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!ukma!asuvax!anasaz!billy
From: [e-mail] (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I'm part Apache...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 15:17:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Bill Moore)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>....so when is that New Mexico field trip taking place???

I'm ready anytime.  It looks like a 3-4 hour drive around the perimeter and
we'd probably want at least one all night watch so its probably a weekend
project.  How about Labor Day?  Obviously we need to get this thing done
before football season starts because there are _some_ things more important
than alien invasions.

Seriously, I'm open.  All we need is some group of people to agree on a
time and place to meet. I'll co-ordinate.

My E-mail is [e-mail] and my office phone is [phone].

--Bill--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: A Solar Tour Part #1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 07:55:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1725 alt.paranormal:2487 sci.skeptic:13742

[e-mail] writes:

>That's all the time it have, I'll leave you with this saying; A person
>who is raped up in himself makes a very small package.

A person raped (as oppossed to wrapped) up in himself must be
exceedingly agile, no?  Perhaps this refers to a way that lonely space
travellers (who are built somewhat differently from humans) amuse
themselves?   Maybe it has something to do with the frequency of your
vibrator?

I'll leave you with this saying: "I'll leave you with this saying."
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Answers to questains.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 08:28:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1726 alt.paranormal:2488 sci.skeptic:13743

[e-mail] writes:

>  A space tape is an audio recording on a message from a
> space person.

Perhaps you mean a message on an audio recording?  An audio recording
concerning a message?  Where are they made, and whose voice appears on
them?  And have you been smoking them after listening?

What is our vibrational frequency in Hz, anyhow?

I will leave you with this saying C-x C-c y RET
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Aug 91 15:31:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1727 sci.skeptic:13744 alt.paranormal:2490
X-Comment-To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Shafto) writes:
>One final point:  We turned a wolf into a toy poodle, and Bob
>Bales still thinks there is a God.  God would have struck us
>dead in a minute for having done something like that.  And
>done the same for the poodle as an act of mercy. :-)

You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not
possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had
built-in limits.
Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not
evolution.
Even if you could cross-breed cats and dogs, it would still not prove
evolution.
It would only show that you could cross-breed cats and dogs, but it
would say nothing about the origin of them.

I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some
other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives?
Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys
from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines)

Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be
constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared
to think in other ways, and by that brought the human knowledge forward.

--
-- Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 04:13:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1728 alt.conspiracy:6604

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rev. D.P. Rubin) writes:
>
>Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the
>artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or
>with theories of life on Titan?

The identity of the species who built the Martian monuments (assuming you
believe that that's what they are) is a matter of who you talk to.  I
suspect everyone will integrate them into his or her pet theory.  (Of
course, there are those who seem to be trying to put everything together in
one big theory...)

I hadn't heard anything about life on Titan FROM A UFOLOGICAL VIEWPOINT,
just as scientific speculation.  Has someone actually brought that into the
grand unification theory of Life, the Aliens, and Everything?

>Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating!

I agree.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Bentwaters Update
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 23:56:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 41


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Jim Speiser
 * Originally dated 08-11-91 22:52

Mark your calendars for Sept. 18th: On that Wednesday evening at 8PM
EDT, NBC will broadcast the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries",
which will include a splashy recreation of the Bentwaters Incident. As
you may know, just after Christmas of 1980, several security police and
officers attached to Bentwaters AFB in England saw a series of baffling
UFOs that came very close to the ground, possibly leaving traces of
radiation. A portion of one sighting was recorded by Lt. Col. Charles I.
Halt, the deputy base commander, who wrote up the entire incident in an
official memorandum. Halt will be among others featured on the
broadcast, and will be speaking openly for the first time.

Another witness, John Burroughs, will also be featured. Burroughs lay
low for many years after the sighting, but came forward to me back in
1989. He has since spoken to several researchers, and together we are
spearheading an effort to re-focus public attention to the case, which I
feel ranks up with Roswell as one of our best contenders. There are some
very compelling suggestions of high-level cover-up; there is at the very
least a palpable shyness on the part of both governments (US and UK) to
be forthright about information pertaining to the case.

 Burroughs has agreed to be interviewed for an exclusive ParaNet
release, and is seeking the help of any reputable UFO group to bring
this case to the attention of the public and ideally, the Congress.

Incidentally, the special effects for the UM broadcast were done by
Industrial Light & Magic. The recreation promises to be pretty
spectacular.

Jim Speiser

Subscribe to ParaNet's list at [e-mail]

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 03:39:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 31


 > From: [e-mail]
 > Date: 12 Aug 91 16:11:20 GMT
 > Organization: Image Analysis Center, Univ. Hospitals of Cleveland"
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 >    FYI:  Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference*
 > source on
 >          ^^^^^^^^
 >          MJ-12.  He wrote the book after interviewing many people
 > involved with/
 >          related to the project.

I know that this will turn on the flame mode, but here goes:  It is generally
known throughout the UFO community that Strieber did not do any investigation
on that book.  He paid William L. Moore to use some of his research work on
the subject.  The problem with this is that Moore's work is extremely
questionable as to validity since MJ-12 has never been proven to exist.
Unfortunately, this makes Strieber's work non-original and tells us nothing
new or more than Moore has been spewing about for quite sometime now.

Just my two cents.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 03:50:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 72


 > From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
 > Date: 11 Aug 91 21:39:44 GMT
 > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
 > Message-ID: <C}S}[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > I must agree with this -- having only read his two non-fiction (by his
 > own
 > accounts, at least) books it seems to me that he does not make any
 > claims to
 > know what it is all about.  I don't claim to speak from a position of
 > authority about Streiber, but the books have impressed me like no
 > others, and
 > they are the work of an extraordinarily clever man if they are entirely
 > made
 > up.

Well at least we know why and how Strieber got to be a well-known science
fiction writer.  He has a way of taking something fictional and making it seem
real.

 > At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not
 > especially great), Streiber started something new.  If anything, I would
 > say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO
 > literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has
 > to be a
 > good thing.

Please elaborate.  How could taking people who are suffering from Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder, allegedly being abducted by so-called aliens, and
capitalizing on this experience be "a good thing"?

 > Please tell us why we are being led on, Mike!

First of all, the abduction phenomenon is very complex.  It is not as simple
as most people think, nor is it pleasant.  The literature is full of people
who are unable to deal with whatever experience they feel that they have.
This whole subject has been reduced to a level of commercialism, thanks to
Whitley, and as a result of it, the real victims go unassisted to deal with
their emotional problems.  No one knows what the abduction phenomenon
represents.  Even if someone appears to know, the truth is that no one does.
This problem, unknown to most people preoccupied with science fiction accounts
of this nature, has a potential for being extremely serious and should get
professional treatment.  It is truly unfortunate that Whitley has polluted the
real world with his writings, holding them out to be a true experience.  All
this has served to do is to further hamper the work of serious researchers
having to deal with what appears to be a fad.  It is next to impossible to
determine how many people have experienced an alleged abduction since there
are so many people who seem to like the attention that they get by claiming
abduction, ala Whitley.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author
writing about science fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead
people into thinking that it may be benevolent is foolish.

Mike

 >
 > Andrew
 >
 >
 > >Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
 > >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
 >
 > --- ConfMail V4.00
 >  * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO Investigative News
 > Network (1:30163/150)

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 04:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
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 > From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
 > Date: 12 Aug 91 11:39:00 GMT
 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Sorry about that.  I stand corrected.

Thanks for checking this out.

 > So what?  He's spoken of his experiences with Wiccan (?) religious
 > organizations in one of his books.  I don't see a New Age influence in
 > his UFO writings other than that.  You can be involved in occult and
 > still be rational about being abducted.

Perhaps.  However, this is not the issue.  I was just tossing this in as an
aside.

 > Again, give me an example of his missdealings with abduction victims.  I
 > find it hard to believe that many people out there know more about
 > what's going on (and are willing to share it).  Certainly, he's not a
 > doctor, but most doctors have never been abducted.  I'd like to see an
 > instance where he's over-stepped his bounds of authority.

That is my point.  He is not a doctor as most of the so-called abduction
investigators are not.  These people are weekend "hypnotherapists" attempting
to force the victim to fit a memory of something into their perception of
reality.  However, these memories do not belong in reality since they are
completely misunderstood by any of our standards.  It would seem more
beneficial to treat the problem professionally and attempt to work through the
experience under the supervision of qualified people.  An abuction club is not
the way to deal with this.  It is like the blind leading the blind since the
victims are as stressed as they were when they started.

 > Oh, come on!  You sitting here telling me he has fabricated his whole
 > story without giving me one lick of proof is *much* worse than the story
 > he's
 > presented:  at least he's made significant attempts to substantiate
 > things.  He's taken lie detector tests, given dates and places, given
 > information on how to contact him, etc.  I still don't see an instance
 > where he's tried to deceive people.

The burden of proof is on him.  He has produced nothing more than a fantastic
story about something that happened to him.  Lie detector tests tell nothing.
They are virtually worthless since someone can tell a lie unknown to them.
You are beginning to prove my point with Strieber as with a lot of the
abductees.  I should clarify that I believe that something may have happened
to Whitley, but he does not even know.  Thus, he cannot call himself an expert
and self-styled support group leader.  The deception has come about with
things that are public knowledge.  For example, the allegations that came from
Budd Hopkins about his involvement with one of Budd's abuctee clients.  It is
no secret that Strieber has been very controversial among a lot of people.
His latest move to dump the abductee support group only further proves that he
was not as committed to the truth and finding the answers as he previously
claimed.  As a result, he has left a lot of his followers high and dry.

 > Does anybody know more than anyone else?  I'd say you're equally in the
 > dark about this as he is (no offense :-).  I don't think you're going to
 > be succesful portraying Strieber as a blood-sucking cult leader.  Up to
 > this point, I see his work as an honest attempt to explain what is
 > happening to him and others.  I've seen no evidence to the contrary and
 > *you don't present any*.  To scoff at him and call him a phoney without
 > backing it up with something other than opinion is far worse than
 > anything he's done.

I never portrayed him to be a "blood-sucking cult leader."  I merely point
out that there are a good number of problems with his background to make him
an authority on the subject of abductions.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!js
From: [e-mail] (Salmela Jarmo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 12:49:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1733 sci.skeptic:13746 alt.paranormal:2493


The Watchtower society produces their standard pro-creationism stuff...
if you have not heard it before you might found it quite funny...
otherwise, just skip.

[e-mail] (Antti Siivonen) writes:
>    The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are
>    no such links at all.
>                Andreas

Naturally, that was the tought about one hundred years ago...
the links have been found...


Antti, tell us *how* you calculated the day-of-doom date (it was 1914
+ some years... but actually it was not the year 1975 accoring to the
Watchtower society, as it used to be.)
Antti is very good in producing random number read from Bible...


- jarmo salmela
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!bu-bio!colby
From: [e-mail] (Chris Colby)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 15:31:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Colby)
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Biology Dept., Bost
Lines: 60
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1734 sci.skeptic:13750 alt.paranormal:2495

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not
>possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had
>built-in limits.

    Breeding for a specific trait (for example weight gain in
pigs) reduces the genetic variation present so breeders do indeed
run into a "wall" where no further change is possible. If the
breeders were patient enough to wait for mutation and recombination
to replenish the variation, they could go right on breeding. This,
however, would take hundreds of thousands to millions of years.
Humans beings are not that patient, evolution is.

>Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not
>evolution.

    Breeding demonstrates that gene frequencies can be changed
via selection. Selection is one of the major mechanisms of evolution.

>Even if you could cross-breed cats and dogs, it would still not prove
>evolution.

    Who said it would?

>I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some
>other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives?

    Evolutionists have no problems considering other alternatives,
in fact the theory is substantially changed from when Darwin first
proposed natural selection as an explanation of it. Details of the
theory are constantly being tweeked to fit new data. Evolutionists
do not want to junk a powerful explanatory theory like evolution
for speculation, however.

>Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys
>from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines)

    Wrong, _niether_ is an alternative. Humans did not
evolve from monkeys, or vice versa. Humans and monkeys share a
common ancestor. Perhaps if you understood the bare basics of
the theory you would understand why evolutionists are so adamant
about defending it from creationism.

>Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be
>constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared
>to think in other ways, and by that brought the human knowledge forward.

    Very definately. Name one time when loopy speculation from
pure ignorance resulted in progress. There is a vast difference
between not being constrained by current teachings, and not
knowing a single thing about current teachings.

>-- Per Lindqvist
>Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332

Chris Colby     ---     email: [e-mail]    ---
"'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined,
resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'"
     --Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro
From: [e-mail] (Andy Ormsby)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 13:02:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news service)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andrew Ormsby)
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1735 sci.skeptic:13751 alt.paranormal:2496
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Aug 91 15: 34:40 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:

>   Like every other scientific theory in this world of ours, Evolution makes
> the assumption that consciousness is a physical phenomena.  I have already
> made my thoughts clear on what I think about that matter.

I fail to see the connection. You were asked to provide some good
evidence discrediting evolution, having claimed there was plenty of
this. You failed abjectly.  You now produce a smokescreen about
conciousness.  Please explain why evolution requires conciousness to
be a physical phenomenon.

Once you've done this, I'd be interested in discovering what a
"non-physical" phenomenon is.

>   I may not be qualified to put forward knowledgable arguments against
> evolution, but I can sure as hell put up a fight when it comes to discussing
> consciousness.  So far nobody has managed to knock down the possibility that
> consciousness is a non-physical phenomena, and I see no reason to presume
> that random mutations + natural selection is the best explanation for how
> life arose on the earth.

If random mutations + natural selection is not the best explanation,
please provide us with a better one with superior evidence and better
explanatory power.  If you (by your own admission) cannot come up with
any decent argument against evolution, then why do you choose not to
believe it?

>   This is *not* a Creationist viewpoint, because I do not believe in the
> Christian God.

Pah!  Plenty of Christians believe in evolution, or so they say.
Plenty of non-Christians believe "something" "created" the
universe/earth/life/humans.  Whether you are a Christian is
irrelevant.

Andy Ormsby, [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!helium!cam
From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 14:45:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Organization: Dept AI, Edinburgh University, Scotland
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Philip J Stephens) writes:

>  I'm beginning to feel that it's a waste of time attempting to bring up
>points raised in anti-evolution books; presumably you've got responses to
>the all, even though I haven't seen them all yet.  If I'm just going to
>get the standard attitude "it's been done" without any actual elaboration,
>then I might as well not bother using the network as a means to gain answers.

Got it right at last!! Why are you bothering hundreds of computers and
thousands of people asking questions which have been answered very
specifically and carefully by experts, such as Gould and Dawkins, in
widely available books which are currently in print, and which *many*
posters have already referred you to?

There are plenty of people on this net who *could* answer your
questions; but they usually get *paid* a lot of money for answering
queries from much better educated and motivated enquirers than you. The
net is not a free information source, it's a complex and subtle
information marketplace. Nobody will answer you unless they think it is
worthwhile. So what is *your* contribution to the net?

>  Of course, there is one simple way of evaluating evolution once and for
>all.  Give me a very detailed mathematical model, I'll implement it as a
>computer program, and we'll see how good it is at generating life-forms.

Sigh! Dawkins has already tried this in prototype form, *and* written a
popular book about it. It's also a hot research topic, if you can handle
scientific papers.  Go visit a bookstore or library and give us all a
rest. You've already been given the references.
--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]   [phone] x2550
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 16:25:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 68
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1737 sci.skeptic:13755 alt.paranormal:2498
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen Flosdorf) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kelly M McArthur) writes:
>>
>>           [... introductory statement deleted ...]
>>
>>>As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts
>>>of dogs running around.  Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things.  There

                   [...details deleted...]

>Steve Warren answers:
>
>>No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of
>>natural selection does not exist.  Your argument is a strawman.

                   [...details deleted...]

>Well Steve, I thought I would respond to your posting even though
>we work in the same area.
>
>Just in case you are suggesting that no new species have ever
>been directly observed to arise, I thought that I would present

        [...detailed examples of speciation deleted...]

Well, you did a good job of quoting from your sources.  It was unnecessary,
however.

Natural selection is a real mechanism that allows offshoots from the "mongrel"
gene pool of a population to adapt to specific niches in their environment.
These offshoots necessarily contain a restrictive subset of genetic material
compared to the major population group they departed from.  If, through
mutation, they loose the ability to interbreed with the parent population,
then this trip into adaptation has become a trap-door.  As a result of the
reduced set of genetic material, any defects have much more serious
consequences in relation to the long-term survivability of the isolated
population.  An exaggerated example would be the cheetah.

The vast majority of mutations are harmful rather than helpful.  As mutations
collect in a population with limited "helpful" genetic diversity (that is, the
set of "known-good" genes - inherited from the parent population - in their
accessible gene pool is significantly reduced), the chance that truly harmful
mutations will begin to be expressed in ways that may threaten the continued
survival of the "species" begins to increase rapidly.

My contention is that the genetically diverse parent population remains static
over time, but the offshoots come and go - and are not genetically diverse
enough to form a new parent group.  By spinning off niche-oriented
child-populations, the parent group preserves its genetic material in many
places simultaneously, sort of like a diversified stock portfolio.  ;^)

Mutations serve to degenerate the genetic strength of the population group
that suffers from them, not to increase it.  The very occasional helpful
mutation is not sufficient to overcome the damage done by harmful mutations.

And this last point is the place where the debate rages.  Arguments about
natural selection and speciation are a waste of time.  I think that everyone
recognizes that these mechanisms are real.

Of course I don't expect you to buy my final point.  I was just clarifying the
issue, because the original poster seemed so proud of himself for proving that
natural selection is real, -> therefore the debate is over.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 16:40:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author
>writing about science fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead
>people into thinking that it may be benevolent is foolish.

What is it that has you so convinced that he made the whole story up?  I
realize the burden of proof is on Whitley, but it seems to me he's done
everything he can to prove that it really did happen and he's not lying.
Please tell us which part indicates to you that this experience is not
real.  If it's not, then I agree with you.  If it is real, then I see no
problems with the man telling his story.

>Mike

> > >Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
> > >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into

Why my name is quoted on this, I don't know.

>--
>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: OH Krill facts??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 16:14:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 47


    [e-mail] writes:

        1.  devise a route (plan) that will allow you to research
        without beening detected.

...plainly impossible, as the authors intended.

    (crops).a.  try locating all heavy eqiupment paperwork,
        owners, leasing??

... since this stuff is (if you believe "Krill" (I've heard that "OH
Krill" is actually a joke based on "PJ Klass", anybody else hear
that?)) secret, the procurement documents would be themselves
classified.

    (cities underground) b.  utilize local county records for
        incoming gov. employees

... again, classified project.  Any employees would have 'cover'
employment that wouldn't jump out at you.

            d.  next, trace most probable (4.0 nerds, Alternative
        groupies alien friendly, social misfits, the weak and
        lonely, the agressive and outgoing, blackmailed, or
        blackmailing)

... WRONG!  Government employees (especially those with high-technical
skills) generally are top-flight, and model citizens.  High-security
personell are generally checked out six ways from Sunday (ever seen
the first, non-classified-employee applications for employment for the
NSA or CIA?), then given security checks, etc.  They are motivated,
intelligent people.  (Sorry, but there *are* smart people working in
these agencies.  If that doesn't fit your world-view, then that's
probably exactly what they want.)

   Further, the government is perfectly willing to lie like hell about
where people are and what they're doing.  Its makes things very
tough-- as the Krill authors are undoubtedly aware (gives 'em a
certain license if their story can't be checked out.)

   That being said, I wish you good luck!  You might also try to
"reverse engineer" the document itself, to see where it drew its
various threads -- knowing who first promulgated the story will
tell you a lot about its veracity.

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: One more thought on Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 47


  This has occurred to me as well.

  If Strieber wasn't a professional writer, would he be more credible as
a close encounter participant?  As a writer telling a strange story, we
dont bother to question his motives. He obviously writes for a living.
He obviously intended to make money by writing a book about his encounter
experience. If he didnt intend to make money from his book, he wouldn't
have bothered to accept the millions he made from it. Making money was
the motive for the book "Communion". No one is going to convince me otherwise.

  On the other hand, is "Communion" a true story? Whether Strieber believes
his story is true or not is completely orthogonal to his motive. We know
he writes for a living. So, if he writes fiction or if he writes a "true"
story, the outcome is the same for him. The "truth" of "Communion" is not
effected by his motive. You may argue that he will make more money by
stating the book is "true". But, I bet the delta in dollars would not
be that great.  There is a market for books of "true" stories about aliens
who stick BBs up peoples noses. There is a market for fiction books about
aliens who stick BBs up peoples' noses. Saying "Communion" is true just
changes the target audience. The main point is:

   Whitley Strieber is a writer. Writers write books about things. The
existance of "Communion" on our grocery store bookshelf is not in question.
It is not "unusual" that Whitley Strieber has written another book.

  If Strieber were a Computer Programmer, or a Stock Broker, or a Lawyer,
we would question his motive for writing his book. We would say that he
did it strictly for the money, and that his motivation to concoct a weird
"true" story was simply to get the extra bucks for that Ferrari F40. There
would be tremendous doubt about the veracity of the subject matter and
the integrity of the author. A writer who tells you aliens are messing
up his telephone is one thing. A lawyer who tells you that aliens are
taking tissue samples from his thigh is a danger to society.

  From whom are you more likely to accept a weird story -- a writer/artist, or
your gynecologist?


   Just a thought.

   Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!tygra!dave
From: [e-mail] (David Conrad)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Gnones and things.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 12:14:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing System, Detroit, MI
Lines: 30
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1741 alt.paranormal:2501 sci.skeptic:13757

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>... please let me tell your about a incident
>that was talked about among people who believe in Flying Saucers.
>Quite a few years back there was a earth person who was given a
>ride aboard a scout craft and was then taken to a mother ship.  He
>started talking to the space person in English and remarked that he
>was surprised that the space person could talk in his language.  The
>SP then told him that they had been observing the earth for many
>thousands of year and they had been written up in many of our holy
>book.  He also stated that they were the pillar of cloud by day and
>pillar of fire by night that went with the children of Israel, they
>opened the Red Sea and knock down the walls of Jericho.

Then the aliens dropped the humans off and had a good laugh.
"Can you believe those primitives bought that line of shit.  Ha!"

>   That's all for now I'll leave you with this this thought; A person who
>does't stand for something, will fall for anything.
>Standard Disclaimer.
>John.

Illiterate as usual, John.  Keep it comin', it's hilarious.  You might
want to add rec.humor to the newsgroups line.

David R. Conrad, [e-mail]
--
=  CAT-TALK Conferencing Network, Computer Conferencing and File Archive  =
-  1-313-343-0800, 300/1200/2400/9600 baud, 8/N/1. New users use 'new'    -
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   E-MAIL Address: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!uuwest!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Pandaemonium)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 20:14:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1742 alt.conspiracy:6612

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> There was a report in the newspaper last week about attempts to produce a
> high-temperature superconductor by doping buckminsterfullerene, a carbon
> molecule which looks like a soccer ball -- hexagons and pentagons.

"Matthew J. Rosseinsky and his colleagues at AT&T Bell Laboratories in
Murray Hill, NJ, made a thin film of buckyball-rubidium and found it
conducted electricity with no resistance at 28 kelvins.  This broke a
record set at the same lab in April, when researchers made a
buckyball-potassium superconductor that worked at 18 kelvins (_Science
News_:  4/20/981, p. 244).  While tehse materials do not work at as high
a temperature as ceramic superconductors, they do function at
temperatures much higher than expected, Rosseinsky's group reports in the
May 27 _Physical Review Letters._
    "In the may 24 _Science,_ Karoly Holczer and co-workers at the
University of Cailfornia, Los Angeles, describe making fully
superconducting samples of potassium-doped buckyballs and producing
rubidium-based superconductors that work at 30 kelvins. . . .
    "Taken together, the recent studies indicate that adding relatively
large metal atoms, such as cesium, should result in higher
superconducting temperatures.  So far, no one has reported getting the
cesium-fullerene combination to work, although many are trying."

                                        _Science News,_ Vol. 139, No. 23

In summary:  fullerene combinations can make superconductors, but they
aren't at anywhere near room temperatures presently.  Newspapers and the
general media tend to confuse scientific findings considerably . . .

-----
Max Pandaemonium  _ | _  Coming soon:  PARADIGM, to be located on the future
[e-mail]  _>|<_       site of the beautiful San Andreas Canyon.
San Jose, CA        |          "Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt."  Fnord.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!midway!msuinfo!eecae.ee.msu.edu!grimm
From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwaters Update
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 22:26:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 10

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>Incidentally, the special effects for the UM broadcast were done by
>Industrial Light & Magic. The recreation promises to be pretty
>spectacular.

With Lucasfilm's ILM, the re-creation should be more spectactular
than the original ;-).

Mike Grimm
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <~RV}C3{@warwick.ac.uk>
Date: 15 Aug 91 01:49:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

First, I realise you have gone on to explain a little more in this post
than you had in your previous post, so I hope I haven't given you too hard
a time just now.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

[about treating abductees when you're a `weekend hypnotherapist']

> An abuction club is not the way to deal with this.

Agreed.  Do abductees have any success in getting treatment from the everyday
psychological specialist?

>It is like the blind leading the blind since the victims are as stressed
>as they were when they started.

Fair enough, but isn't the `support group' then something that has to be
questioned throughout society?  Surely people get something out of just
knowing they are not alone in their experiences?

>The burden of proof is on him.

Of course it is, but that's really no grounds for rejection of his story.
The scientific status of hypnotic regression and subsequent questioning is
undoubtedly shaky.  I would agree that Streiber may have done harm in giving
this sort of thing a positive image in his work.  It certainly makes for an
exciting story, of course.  (Maybe I'm beginning to agree with you!)

>The deception has come about with things that are public knowledge.  For
>example, the allegations that came from Budd Hopkins about his
>involvement with one of Budd's abuctee clients.

Could you expound on this, please?

>His latest move to dump the abductee support group only further proves that >he was not as committed to the truth and finding the answers as he previously
>claimed.  As a result, he has left a lot of his followers high and dry.

In what way has he dumped them?  Has he removed financial support, or what?

>Mike

Andrew
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <YQV}4A{@warwick.ac.uk>
Date: 15 Aug 91 01:29:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 95
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily


[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>Well at least we know why and how Strieber got to be a well-known science
>fiction writer.  He has a way of taking something fictional and making it >seem real.

You have to confess that he does not hide from this in the books.  Of course,
he may be contriving the `what-I-write-about-seems-now-to-reflect-my-
experiences-but-I-didn't-know-that-when-I-was-writing-it' line.

> > At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not
> > especially great), Streiber started something new.  If anything, I would
> > say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO
> > literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has
> > to be a good thing.

>Please elaborate.  How could taking people who are suffering from Post
>Traumatic Stress Disorder, allegedly being abducted by so-called aliens, and
>capitalizing on this experience be "a good thing"?

You haven't really reacted to quite what I meant there.  I should elaborate.
I have no knowledge of the extent to which he has exploited `fellow'
abduction-claimants.  This is an entirely different point, and if indeed what
you are saying is the case, I would condemn Streiber absolutely for this (then
again, it would not necessarily invalidate his own claims).  But as I have
said, I am not speaking from a position of great authority as regards the man,
and I can't claim to know what he has been doing in the real world.

My point is that he is sensible (or perhaps businesslike, from your
perspective) enough to draw no definite conclusions from his claimed
experiences.  This is a much more commendable attitude than is often taken,
with people rushing to conclusions as to the origin of what they have
encountered.  When I read `Transformation' it was the first time I had seen a
sensible treatment of the UFO phenomenon as part of a cultural tradition
(fairies, goblins etc, now UFOs and aliens given our obsession with
technology). (Von Daniken excluded, because I don't find it sensible.)

The strength of those books, for me, was that they had a personal perspective.
Do think that the abduction phenomenon would be as recognised if it hadn't had
an articulate `spokesman' like Streiber?  (This is not a rhetorical question
with a veiled assertion -- I don't claim to have an answer and am wondering
what you think?)

>First of all, the abduction phenomenon is very complex.  It is not as simple
>as most people think, nor is it pleasant.  The literature is full of people
>who are unable to deal with whatever experience they feel that they have.

I have got this impression too...

>This whole subject has been reduced to a level of commercialism, thanks to
>Whitley, and as a result of it, the real victims go unassisted to deal with
>their emotional problems.

Why has it become a commercial issue?  And why should that stop real victims
being helped?  Surely that would only come if Streiber came out and said he
was lying?

>No one knows what the abduction phenomenon
>represents.  Even if someone appears to know, the truth is that no one does.
>This problem, unknown to most people preoccupied with science fiction
>accounts of this nature, has a potential for being extremely serious and
>should get professional treatment.  It is truly unfortunate that Whitley
>has polluted the real world with his writings, holding them out to be a
>true experience.

Everything you say is true regarding the seriousness of the problem.  I get
the impression you don't think Dan and I have a grip on that. You clearly
don't trust Streiber's writings, but you still don't say _why_ you know he is
lying.

>There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author writing about science
>fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead people into thinking that
>it may be benevolent is foolish.
>
>Mike

Fair point, but why should we now be convinced that he is making it up?  You
still have not presented even casual evidence that Streiber is a liar.  It is
in all our interests to establish why it is so.  If you have information, but
for some reason cannot expose it, then please tell us, and I'm sure we'll
respect that.  But at the moment, all you have told us is that Whitley is a
Bad Boy, without giving any real explanation.

Abuse, neglect, or whatever, of other `abductees' is one thing; his having
lied about it all is another.  I see a lot of circumstantial, suspicious
signs, such as his being an author of science fiction and horror stories, but
he attempts to account for it in the only way he reasonably could, and
I'm prepared to accept that.  Finally, (I am a gullible soul perhaps :-) what
he says at times seems too fantastic to have been made up by someone who
wanted to be taken seriously so he could rake in the cash.  Perhaps this is
where I fall for his game.  What do you think?

>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

Andrew
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hanger 19 and Roswell incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 04:36:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681867692@ram>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <steve.681867692@ram> [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak) writes:
>
>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?)
>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those
>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting?

A guy named T. S. Bennett went to Dulce, but I don't know if he found
anything.  Dr. Bennewitz says it got trashed by the Delta Force two years
ago anyway :-)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hello?  Hello-o!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 04:39:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>I humbly ask that some one post a *short* list of the "must reads" on this
>subject.  I've posted this request a couple of times and haven't received
>a response; e-mail or post.

I'm not avoiding you, I've just got a stupendous time delay in getting
news, and it's beyond my control.  (I'm working on changing newsfeeds
though...)

I did send a reply to your e-mail tonight.  Mail isn't delayed, just news.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Summary: Why?
Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 07:59:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 28

I edited out some of Zachary's post.  My question is, "Why?"  Why would
the govt. produce the greys?  To pilot experimental spacecraft?  Don't
we have capable military test pilots and NASA people who do this for a
living?  I really can't see a "test tube grey man" having superior
flying/piloting skills to those guys (but I'm not a geneticist, either).

Also, that doesn't explain the cattle mutilations and BB probes up folks'
noses.  I don't see the govt. finding a need for steer pituitaries and
deciding that cloned humanoids are the way to go.  I suppose the govt.
*might* have some reason to stick BBs in people's brains via nose-pokers,
but once again, why the "artificial greys?"

Zachary's post brings up a point that has been puzzling me, however.
Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight.  Presuming the
greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is
there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human-
like form?  (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.)  And oxygen-breathing to boot?  Why
can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even?
Does this make sense to anybody?

Thank you, good-night, and pleasant dreams...
--
......................................................................
  ___            :  Eric P. Herrera            :  My opinions only...
 (__ '     .     :  Metaphor Computer Systems  :  Don't blame Metaphor
 /    ,_  ,  _   :  Mountain View, CA          :.......................
(___)/ (_/(_(_,  :  [e-mail]
......................................................................
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpgrla!kelvinf
From: [e-mail] (Kelvin Fedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 20:58:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Lines: 7

In alt.alien.visitors, [e-mail] (Christopher J. Shields) writes:

>Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni
>that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that
>Strieber claims to have.

 Without permanently damaging or killing Strieber to get it at least :-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!slack.med.upenn.edu!rescorla
From: [e-mail] (Rescorla)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 14:44:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: The Temples of Syrinx
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1751 sci.skeptic:13771 alt.paranormal:2506
Nntp-Posting-Host: slack.med.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Shafto) writes:
]You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not
]possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had
]built-in limits.
I'm not sure this is true. Evidence?

]Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not
]evolution.
No, but it proves that evolution is theoretically possible.

]I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some
]other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives?
]Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys
Humans did not evolve from monkeys.

]from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines)
This would conflict with the fossil record--just as much as the idea that
humans evolved from monkeys does.


]Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be
]constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared
Not in face of the EVIDENCE.
-Ekr


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Eric Rescorla                                     [e-mail]
     "No his mind is not for rent;to any God or government"-Peart/Dubois
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 13:37:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Joe Mastroianni
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Zachary Harman) writes:
>It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the
>whole Aliens thing is a big LIE.
>
>It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!)
>
>
>ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
>-------------------------


This is the story line for one of my favorite installments of "The Outer
Limits". Robert Culp is turned into an "alien" by some biologists/scientists/
geneticists. The purpose of this is to stage an alien invasion. When the
governments of the world are confronted by this alien, the world will
galvanize into a new order against the common threat.

Only, his space ship crashes and he chickens out at the list minute. He
sloggs back to the lab where he was converted to an alien and dies
unceremoniously on the floor.

Great show.
How come they dont make them like that anymore?


Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!vicorp!mc
From: [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Web n' Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 15:21:08 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous)
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Amherst, Massachusetts
Lines: 25

Some thoughts after carefully reading "Web" and "O.H. Krill":

Either:

1. At least some of this is partially true; consequently
   WE ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO.

                                  - or -

2. There must now be many government disinformation specialists pounding
   the pavement looking for work, as having executed their task of
   discrediting UFOology *so well*, they have effectively removed the need
   for their services.
   The resulting confusion and paranoia within the UFO 'cult' community
   is now sufficient to ensure that the subject will never get serious
   consideration from society at large.

...I tend to think (2) is closer to the truth.

Mark
--
####################    All relevant disclaimers apply    #####################
          Mark Charalambous              [e-mail]
           VI Corporation             uunet!vicorp!mc
       [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser
From: [e-mail] (Steve Reiser)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: MOVE THIS TOPIC --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 14:53:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1754 sci.skeptic:13772 alt.paranormal:2508


ERASE ALT.PARANORMAL  FROM THE NEWSGROUP LINE BEFORE POSTING ,
PLEASE!!!!











--
Steve Reiser ([e-mail] or !uunet!pmafire!reiser)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob
From: [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UK Crop Circles on Bitmaps
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 15:00:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan)
Organization: IBM AIX Systems Support Centre, UK.
Lines: 191


    Has anyone access to a image scanner. I would like to scan
    in images of Crop Circles to bitmap files for distribution
    across the net, by tacking  onto the end of mail messages.
    I will be able to supply the photos if someone can scan them
    (sounds like a good way to see crop circles to me.)
    If anyone has this facility and does not mind doing the
    scanning I would appreciate hearing back.
    below is a bitmap representation of four of last years crop
    circles all from Winchester. To view you will need to "cut"
    where indicated and use a bitmap tool to view.

Regards, Robert
---------------------cut here-------------------------------------
#define circe_width 128
#define circe_height 128
#define circe_x_hot -1
#define circe_y_hot -1
static char circe_bits[] = {
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,
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------------------------------cut here---------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!uokmax!occrsh!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 01:44:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 108
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1756 alt.conspiracy:6620

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>
>  This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer
>book form with better character development. It is probably best read
>on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some
>exotic Asian destination.
>
> Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There
>was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may
>even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version.
>
> If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you.
>
> Joe
>

Naw...now why would you think that :-)

I would be *remiss* if I didn't include something here that I just
spotted on the BBS echo called "Fido UFO" direct from Bill English.

Bill knows John Lear directly...so I would say this is pretty much
from the "horses mouth"

-----Include message--------------------------------------------------


Message #8038 - UFO
   Date : 12-Aug-91 13:49
   From : John Hicks
     To : Dali Moyzes
Subject : Three Star General?
Replies : #7808 <-
 > You can download the KRILL.ZIP from this bbs, which discuss the
 > abductions, but the best is the UFO!.ZIP ...

(7245)  Thu 21 Mar 91 10:55p
By: Bill English
To: All
Re: Krill files
St:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

During the past several weeks there have been a number of questions concerning
the infamous "Krill Papers". At the advise of John Hicks (363/29) I am posting
this information concerning the documents in question.

1) The "Krill Papers" were and are a fraud. John Lear and John Grace of Nevada
authored these papers and uploaded them to a Paranet Board originally to see
just how guliable the UFO investigative community really was. Much to the
credit of Paranet and Mike Corbin, it was quickly determined that the
documents
were in fact fraudulent. As a result of this both John Lear and John Grace
were
barred from Paranet and several other UFO related Echos. While I don't agree
with the methods employed by John, I do understand his reasoning for this.

2) In one respect the fraud perpetrated by John Lear and John Grace had the
effect of proving that at least one so called researcher of of some renoun was
in fact a fraud himself. I am of course refering to William Cooper. John was
listening to Cooper give and interview to one of the local news media when he
over heard Cooper state that while serving in the Navy he in fact viewed the
Krill Papers. John approached and questioned Cooper about this knowing that
the
Krill Papers and the information in them was faked. Cooper stuck to his story
and decided that John was his enemy. Especially after John pointed out to him
that the Krill Papers were faked. As a result of this Cooper went on a rampage
and did everything that he could to discredit Lear and several others.

3) For those of you just coming onto the UFO scene, it is imparitive that you
understand that one of the many problems that are inherent to UFO research
field is that information sometimes get spread out so quickly without proper
disemination. As a result of this it becomes factual without basis.
PLEASE...PLEASE...don't take everything you read on these databases as being
the absolute truth without first checking with others and most importantly
checking your sources...We all get burned from time to time...including myself
as evidenced by the SS433 fiasco. But we are the ones who some day may be
looked upon as the true heros of our time. At least I hope so..A lot of us
have
lost so much because of what we do here...

Bill English

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29)

------End of included message-----------------------------------------------

Note: you can tell this is an _authentic_ message from Bill English by all
his typos :-) :-)

I'm going to be seeing Bill this upcoming weekend at a MUFON function,so
I will have the opportunity to "grill" him more on this directly.

I'm sure that Michael Corbin can recall when this infamous "Krill" file
hit Paranet and how fast it was recognized as bogus. John Lear is _not_
known to be at all credible.

And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien imagery in advertising
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 20:38:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 49



I think it was Don Allen who mentioned an increase in alien imagery
in commercials lately. I had been noticing this myself, and a
couple of commercials I've seen lately have really pressed the point.

One was for a convenience market's "Wild Wheels" promotional campaign
on TV. Something about drinking Coke and maybe winning wheeled transport
(bicycles, roller skates, etc...) Anyway... They kept showing quick
clips of a "bad sci-fi movie" UFO landed in the desert, and someone
in a large-headed green alien costume. At the end they had the person
in the alien costume being helped by a couple people to try and ride a
bicycle.

The other one that really caught my attention was for a Pearle Vision
Optical store. The TV spot had an small rectangular optical store/lab(?)
flying around a city at night with lights beaming out like something
out of a Stephen Speilberg movie. The newspaper version of the ad is
even more interesting. It has a graphic with 3 people gawking up at a
floating, glowing optics lab complete with 25 or so beams of light
shining from it. Above the UFO-lab was writen "THERE HERE!"


So what does it all mean?


1. It is all part of a grand conspiricy to ease the public into
   accepting an alien presence on the earth in preparation for
   the upcoming government release of all UFO information currently
   kept secret (including 45 years of secret contact with aliens,
   recovered disks/corpses, the works!). Government propaganda agents
   have infiltrated corporations and are influencing their advertising
   for these purposes. :-)


2. Marketing weasels have noticed that UFOs are trendy again
   and are cashing in.


I favour the second meaning.


Has anyone else noticed this increase in alien imagery lately, or have I
just been reading too many books about UFOs lately?




Leonard Spani
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Web n' Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 00:20:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous) writes:
|> Some thoughts after carefully reading "Web" and "O.H. Krill":
|>
|> Either:
|>
|> 1. At least some of this is partially true; consequently
|>    WE ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO.
|>
|>                                   - or -
|>
|> 2. There must now be many government disinformation specialists pounding
|>    the pavement looking for work, as having executed their task of
|>    discrediting UFOology *so well*, they have effectively removed the need
|>    for their services.
|>    The resulting confusion and paranoia within the UFO 'cult' community
|>    is now sufficient to ensure that the subject will never get serious
|>    consideration from society at large.
|>
|> ...I tend to think (2) is closer to the truth.
|>
|> Mark
|> --
|> ####################    All relevant disclaimers apply    #####################
|>           Mark Charalambous              [e-mail]
|>            VI Corporation             uunet!vicorp!mc
|>        [phone]


I'd go for (2) as well... but

In Don Allen's recent posting <[e-mail]>
"Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)" he included a statement by Bill
English that said in part:

|>  1) The "Krill Papers" were and are a fraud. John Lear and John Grace of Nevada
|> authored these papers and uploaded them to a Paranet Board originally to see
|> just how guliable the UFO investigative community really was.


It would seem that you will have to update number 2 to include UFO 'researchers'
and UFO 'cultists' spreading disinformation to discredit each other so that
any attention (or $$) given by society doesn't have to be spread around as
much. :^)




Leonard.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 01:55:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1759 alt.conspiracy:6621

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether.

Don,

Can you speculate on Cooper's motives in presenting such wild
information?  Is it strictly money?  I mean, some things he says are
just simply ridiculous!

>-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 03:55:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 31

To answer the question about why we are seeing aliens that look like us,
I think it ultimately comes down to a psychological factor...

People respond well to what they are familiar with, thats why we have
cartoons of people with animal heads *Never the other way around :) *

To take a recent example, take the movie, The Terminator.  You had two robots,
one a true machine (gears, servos, etc...) Another a liquid metal prototype...
Funny how the machine is very human looking and the liquid metal terrors
primary form is human...(Ok..Ok..not to freak out people to finish its mission
but what about the last fight scene?) I am beginning to digress, so I will
finish this example by stating that both machines are still "human"


And so it goes with Alien beings...
Since the fifties, we have had Molemen, Space Lizards, Big Brainy guys, and
recently the small grey forms...

Now I have something for all of you people to think about...Ready? here goes!

Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND.

Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm?

Steve Graziano


[e-mail]

(BLUES BROS! The ORIGINAL MOB's!)
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 03:29:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>"aliens-eating-humans-from-underground-bases-in-Dulce, NM" scenario.  Again,
>this is very similar to the stuff that was being fed to Bennewitz.  Bennewitz
>later took an extended vacation for a nervous breakdown to allow the paranoia
>to wear off.

Don Allen recently posted something from the Fido UFO echo indicating that
Bennewitz was still involved with the Dulce scenario and was still saying
much the same thing as he did before his breakdown.  Do you know anything
about this?  I had previously assumed that he wasn't involved in UFOlogy
any more.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mcorbin Address
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 23:32:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 28


 > From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
 > Date: 13 Aug 91 21:50:12 GMT
 > Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
 >
 >
 >         Sorry to post this here.
 >
 >         I acan't get a reply to MCORBIN via the SMTP path
 >         that came attached to original message.
 >
 >         I need an address that works.

There are three addresses that work reliably, although please don't send
anything to me at the fidonet.org address.  It is not reliable.

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 23:41:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 29


 > From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
 > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:40:09 GMT
 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > What is it that has you so convinced that he made the whole story up?  I
 > realize the burden of proof is on Whitley, but it seems to me he's done
 > everything he can to prove that it really did happen and he's not lying.
 > Please tell us which part indicates to you that this experience is not
 > real.  If it's not, then I agree with you.  If it is real, then I see no
 > problems with the man telling his story.

Let's just say that giving his experience, his background, and the fact that
Whitley can't prove his experience, I am very skeptical that it even happened
to him.  My objection is not with Whitley writing about such things, or anyone
for that matter.  What my objection is comes from those who read this stuff
immediately jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that it is true,
cut-and-dried, without any proof.  This must be taken with a large block of
salt.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 23:49:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 35


 > From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
 > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT
 > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 >   This has occurred to me as well.

I have found that most people who have a traumatic *personal* experience with
this subject are more inclined not to publicize it.  If they do, it is usually
done through the writing of the impersonal investigator who has thoroughly
documented his case.  In Whitley's case, it was not thoroughly investigated by
an impersonal investigator, nor has he been medically examined with the
report made publicly available.  Second, Whitley admits involvement with the
occult, which generally tends to only muddy the water where abduction is
concerned.  As for the issue of who writes the book, and for what motive:  I
would say that Communion was sensationalized to a high degree.  Most abduction
experiences are dramatic, but limited in scope of what Strieber has expounded
on for media requirements.  You can extract a book out of one's experience,
however Whitley's story has been embellished and diluted to the point where
you can't sift what really happened from what Whitley has decided to add to it
for shock value.  You will find that many people who read the book experience
a wide range of emotions.  This is the work of a professional author with a
very vivid imagination.  In real life, abduction experiences are interesting,
but they are all basically the same.  Although they invoke some emotion, they
don't to the degree that Whitley's do.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 23:56:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 44


 > From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
 > Date: 15 Aug 91 01:49:03 GMT
 > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
 > Message-ID: <~RV}C3{@warwick.ac.uk>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Agreed.  Do abductees have any success in getting treatment from the
 > everyday
 > psychological specialist?

That would be purely subjective.  However, I would say that the symptoms of
trauma could be successfully treated by a professional.  The experience should
not be treated as the highlight of therapy, since there are no precedents
established for this sort of thing.  However, with enough study, a treatment
could be found.  The professional psychological community has been dealing
with this problem, although nothing solid has been arrived at.

 > Fair enough, but isn't the `support group' then something that has to be
 > questioned throughout society?  Surely people get something out of just
 > knowing they are not alone in their experiences?

I agree.  However, I would say that the support group should be directed by a
professional.

 > Of course it is, but that's really no grounds for rejection of his
 > story.
 > The scientific status of hypnotic regression and subsequent questioning
 > is
 > undoubtedly shaky.  I would agree that Streiber may have done harm in
 > giving
 > this sort of thing a positive image in his work.  It certainly makes for
 > an
 > exciting story, of course.  (Maybe I'm beginning to agree with you!)

See my remarks to Dan Cogswell.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hanger 19 And Roswell Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 23:57:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 > Date: 14 Aug 91 04:36:19 GMT
 > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > A guy named T. S. Bennett went to Dulce, but I don't know if he found
 > anything.  Dr. Bennewitz says it got trashed by the Delta Force two
 > years
 > ago anyway :-)

The only thing Bennett found there were a few rattlesnakes.  Allen Benz also
went and found nothing.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 00:02:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 45


 > From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
 > Date: 15 Aug 91 07:59:35 GMT
 > Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Also, that doesn't explain the cattle mutilations and BB probes up
 > folks'
 > noses.  I don't see the govt. finding a need for steer pituitaries and
 > deciding that cloned humanoids are the way to go.  I suppose the govt.
 > *might* have some reason to stick BBs in people's brains via nose-
 > pokers,
 > but once again, why the "artificial greys?"

There have never been any documented cases of implants found up people's
noses.  However, I have heard that there was an implant recovered recently and
is being studied by an undisclosed medical university on the east coast
somewhere.  We were to have heard a report, but that is overdue about three
months now.  Although cattle mutilations remain a paramount mystery, have you
ever considered the "psych" angle as the reason for the cattle mutilations?
This could be government-based, although I would not say that using the term
government is an accurate term.  That provides too broad a brush stroke to
what might be a clandestine group with its own agenda.

 > Zachary's post brings up a point that has been puzzling me, however.
 > Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight.  Presuming the
 > greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is
 > there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human-
 > like form?  (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.)  And oxygen-breathing to boot?  Why
 > can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even?
 > Does this make sense to anybody?


Very good point.  The late Dr. J. Allen Hynek used to say that we must
perceive the possibilities as we know them and the possibilities as we do not
know them.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/communion & Shit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 00:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 19


 > From: [e-mail] (Kelvin Fedrick)
 > Date: 14 Aug 91 20:58:52 GMT
 > Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 >  Without permanently damaging or killing Strieber to get it at least :-)

That is assuming that the implant even exists.  Unless I am wrong, I don't
think this fact has ever been substantiated.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Joe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <881102r.682347565@aucs>
Date: 16 Aug 91 12:59:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENet News)
Organization: Acadia University
Lines: 6
Nntp-Posting-Host: aucs.acadiau.ca

test
--
I don't want no nifty pad, I want a house just like Mom & Dad
I wanna be stereo-typed, I wanna be classified    +------------------------
I wanna be masochistic, I wanna be sadistic    | Joe Raaymakers
.. I want a suburban home -- The Descendents    | [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!willee.enet.dec.com!fretts
From: [e-mail] (Carole Fretts)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 14:35:28 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 12


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes...
>To answer the question about why we are seeing aliens that look like us,
>I think it ultimately comes down to a psychological factor...


....maybe the 'aliens' are not really alien to us....maybe they are part
of our lineage.

Just speculation.

Carole
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 03:47:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Trey Wedge) writes:
>> Has anyone seen the MJ-12 or Project Majestic text from Cooper here,
>>  or somewhere? A better question is... has anyone saved it?
>
>   Q:  Are you referring to Bill Cooper here?  If so, the *best* authority on
>       him (IMHO) is Mary Ann Hawk, co-director of the Cleveland UFOlogy Pro-
>       ject in Cleveland, Ohio.  She has attended conferences and seminars
>       (on UFOs and psychotronics) all over the world, and as a consequence has
>       come across Mr. Cooper and/or his material very often.  She is always
>       happy to share.  If you would like further information on Ms. Hawk or
>       C.U.P., please E-mail me.
>

Gee..and I though Timmy Bennett was the best authority on Bill Cooper..darn..
looks like I was _wrong_ (Inside joke folks :-)


>  A friend who is not on the net wants a copy of something that
>>  I had seen on the net in alt.conspiracy about a year ago, about
>>  the Project Majestic and links to the FBI CIA etc.
>>
>>  Anyone have any info? Please reply by E-mail if possible.
>
>   FYI:  Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference* source on
>         ^^^^^^^^
>         MJ-12.  He wrote the book after interviewing many people involved with/
>         related to the project.
>
>No disclaimer.  WE'RE ALL ONE.

I'm sorry to have to break this to you....but if you are regarding Whitley
Strieber as an "excellent source of information on MJ-12" than you are
sadly mis-informed.

Whitley Strieber is NOT a UFO investigator..if Whitley got his background
on Majestic (his FICTIONAL book), then it was from a Govt DIS-INFO agent,
William L. Moore. Please do your research more thoroughly!

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Reading material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 03:51:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 32

>"Aliens Among Us", along with the rest of Ruth Montgomery's books, is
>extremely New Age-biased.  If reading of Atlantis and channeled entities
>bothers you, avoid it.    (I read it once just to see what that part of the
>UFO world was up to.  Usually I stick to things that are a bit more
>material.  [Though I don't rule out the possibility of psychic/magickal
>experiences, it's impossible to verify that they really happened as opposed
>to being purely human in origin, and some of the literature based upon
>them is absolute drivel.])

Yea..I got this book..it's very LONG on declarations and SHORT on fact.

I put her book in the same category as Adamski's "Inside the Flying Suacers"

Don





>
>--
>  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
>  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
>  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Aug 91 04:02:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681868113@ram> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 187

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <steve.681868113@ram>, [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak) writes...
>>Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things
>>he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch<
>>resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if
>>some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also
>

I have something here that you guys should be aware of..it's Whit's last
Newsletter (in part) and a response from a friend of mind on the BBS side
of the UFO echoes..his comments, I thought were quite lucid. I will leave
it up to you to persue it a bit further., Bear in mind than not everything
is what it seems to be and (in my opinion) Strieber is a rather strange
and un-reliable character:

------Begin included text ------------------------------------------------


"The Communion Letter" - cover letter from the Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3,
No. 1.  Copyright 1991, Wilson and Neff, Inc.  Dora Ruffner, Editor, PO Box
10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235.  Anne Strieber, Executive Editor, 496 La
Guardia Place, New Yo
rk, NY 10012

=============================================================================

Dear Reader:

I would like to thank you for your patronage of the Communion Letter.  Your
subscription ends with this issue, and we are not taking new subscriptions or
renewals.  A list of available back issues is printed on the reverse of this
letter for those who may be interested in collecting.

I had always intended to run the newsletter about two years, and that amount
of time has now passed.  During this period the Communion Letter has gained a
large circulation and, I believe, published some remarkable articles.

But all good things must come to an end.  I am not a UFO researcher and do not
wish to endure the continued media attack that is associated with being
involved in this field.  In addition, the so-called "UFO-ologists" are
probably the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered.
Their interpretation of the visitor experience is rubbish from beginning to
end.  The "abduction reports" that they generate are not real.  They are
artifacts of hypnosis and cultural conditioning.

What we are experiencing is a perceptual anomaly that is sufficiently
ambiguous and intense that it demands explanation.  It is something that human
beings have been experiencing for a long time.  It is the cause of religion,
of mythology, of folklore.  Presently it is the cause of the "alien abduction"
belief.

What is *really* behind our experiences?  We are.  This is a human thing.
However, I would also say that it indicates that we--and our world--are vastly
different, and far more strange, than we have ever dreamed, or dared imagine.

With that I leave you.

                              Whitley Strieber

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 07-22-91  21:19
From: John Powell
Subj: Communion Letter, Bye Bye

Strieber sure had a lot to say about a lot of topics in the Farewell issue of
The Communion Letter.  ("The Communion Letter" from the Spring Issue, 1991;
Volume 3, No. 1.  Copyright 1991, Wilson and Neff, Inc.  Dora Ruffner,
Editor, PO Box 10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235.  Anne Strieber, Executive
Editor, 496 La Guardia Place, New York, NY 10012)
The most important points that Strieber is apparently trying very hard to
make are also the most difficult ones to decipher and understand.  I suppose
that shouldn't be a surprise since Strieber, given his training and
profession, deals with a version of reality that at best is highly
exaggerated and at worst is completely artificial.  (I also found it
unnecessarily tedious to have to read "between the lines", a practice not
generally required when examining genuine expository writing.  In what
follows I have tried to avoid writing "between the lines" unless Strieber
provided no other reasonable alternative.)
Please note that my questions are mostly rhetorical or at least not directly
at you personally... <grin>
First, some of Whit's more easily extractable comments.  Here's what he has
to say about...
UFOlogists:
-+---------
"...are probably the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever
encountered.  Their interpretation of the visitor experience is rubbish from
beginning to end.  The "abduction reports" that they generate are not real.
They are artifacts of hypnosis and cultural conditioning."
"...looney certitudes offered by UFO fanatics."
"Jealousy is an illness, and it is highly contagious, and the UFO community
is sick to death with it."
"...the so-called "typical abduction experience" that has been concocted by
the UFO community."
"...the [Communion] groups were operating as an alternative to a very nasty
little cult run by people so startlingly ignorant of what they are doing that
they do not even understand that they are brainwashing their victims."
I was rather disappointed to see Strieber take such a wide brush to what is
actually a very large and highly varied group of people who mostly have in
commom a genuine desire to find out what is going on.  Why would Strieber try
to turn tens of thousands of people away from ufologists and ufology?
Especially when these people are at the core of the phenomenon...
UFOlogy:
-+------
"...the UFO community, whom they [Strieber's scientist friends] regard as a
kooky backwater plagued by the fuzzy thinking of losers with poor academic
credentials, who are motivated by superstition and insane jealousies."
"Until organizations like MUFON and CUFOS disintegrate or become discredited,
and the press is allowed to discover that there are people with strong and
respected credentials working on the subject, further progress is unlikely."
"...the UFO junk, with the attendant risk of being made into a hypnotized
zombie."
"I do not accept most UFO doctrine, at least not as it is expressed by
American believers."
These and other similar statements were equally disappointing.  Strieber
effectively trashes the people involved in trying to find out what is going
on, the organizations they are associated with in trying to find out what is
going on, the media, and the government.  Aside from Strieber himself what's
left?  Are we suppossed to think that _everybody_ sucks except Whitley?
Strieber's whining is incessant, I don't know how he defines "poor academic
credentials", nor do I know who his scientist friends are, but it seems to me
that _someone_ is unfamiliar with the rosters of MUFON and CUFOS.
Furthermore, I find the idea of Strieber sitting in judgement over all of
these people and their collective contributions to be something best suited
to what Strieber does best - fiction.
UFOs:
-+---
"The presence of UFO's, at least, has already been proven.  The problem is
not one of whether or not they exist, but rather, what they are."
Strieber says that he is "not a UFO researcher" yet he comments on Roswell:
"I was able to do some research into this affair which must remain
confidential, but it convinced me that the Air Force obtained, without a
doubt, some material from the desert north of Roswell, New Mexico, that it
could not explain at the time."  Mildly stated and cloaked in confidentiality
his opinion is more interesting in light of his feelings on CUFOS and the
recent work Randle & Schmitt have done.  Yes, the presence of UFOs _is_
clearly established, to my knowledge without help from Strieber, and a large
amount of congratulation is due the very people and organizations that
Strieber wishes to see discredited or destroyed outright - strange sentiments
coming from someone who claims to also want the truth found.
Strieber's contends that the visitors and the visitor experience
are a natural part of the evolution of humankind and he makes fairly clear a
significant part of his understanding of that process saying that it "begins,
always, with destruction."  However, according to Strieber, we should welcome
this destruction and the destructors and not fear them.  "What is the secret
of the lamb lying down with the lion?  The lamb sees that the full expression
of his life requires him to surrender to the lion.  To fully express himself
he must serve nature, and so also the lion."  "The lion is not evil because
he eats the lamb.  Rather, he is simply hungry, and he has a right to his
hunger."  "Earth is fat with flesh: she is aching for the days of harvest."
Personally, I'd like a wee bit more choice in the matter...
He suggests that we can contribute to, perhaps hasten, this process if we
"abandon myth, abandon folklore, abandon culture, abandon all the engines of
deceit..."  He flatly states that the "only way to proceed is to accept that
the soul has an objective reality and - at the present moment - we haven't
got the faintest idea what that means."  We also don't have any evidence...
Strieber treats his friends about as well as he seems to treat everyone else:
"Why would it be that one journalist came to my cabin and had an encounter,
and another did not?  Why would a weak, hysterical fool have elaborate
contact, while a well-educated, competent scientist would not?"
Strieber concludes the final issue of the Communion Letter with: "Will we
meet again?"
I hope not.  I do not give him special credit for popularizing the Abduction
phenomenon since Hopkins and Fowler, among others, were doing that long
before Strieber got reamed.  Strieber, and the Communion Letter, have clearly
(IMHO) helped to create and spread disinformation and I cannot help but think
that this might have been intentional.  His fictionalization of the Roswell
event in Majestic was more adolescent and humorous than it was accurate or
informative and their support of Moore, an admitted gov't agent, is more than
indictment enough.
My only concern is for all those people who are now not only cutoff from his
minor information but who may also be, if they obey Strieber's directives,
essentially isolated from the serious prospect of help and recovery.
Thanks, take care.
John.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 01:47:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rev. D.P. Rubin) writes:
>
>Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the
>artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or
>with theories of life on Titan?
>
>Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating!
>--
>_______________Don't push me, 'cause I'm close to the edge_____________________
>___________________________________________________-Grandmaster Flash_________
>Reverend Beeboy, minister of Pornography, Graffiti consultant, and the Thug.
>Disclaimer:  Bass for ya face, Santa Cruz!
>"Welcome my friends to Palomar.  Where men are men, and women need a sense of
>        humor."
>                                             -Carmen, _Love and Rockets_
>________________________________________________________________________________

I _seriously_ doubt it.

It _would_ make a GREAT script for a movie, though. :-)

Don


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Communion question
Keywords: communion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 02:28:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 97

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Juice S. Aaron) writes:
>
>A few months ago I picked up and read the vast majority of
>the book called Communion.  What the book had to say
>was quite interesting and sometimes somewhat shocking
>for me.  I spent many a night wondering if big ugly
>aliens with spindly arms would come waltzing down my
>hall (or if they already had and I just didn't remember
>it.)  Then I heard that there was a movie based on
>the book and after waiting millenia for it to be
>released on video was able to watch it.
>I noticed that the screenplay for the movie was
>written by Streiber himself so I thought
>we'll get the real picture that was presented in
>the book.  Now I watched the movie and afterwards
>I found myself wondering if it was actually true to the
>book.  Several minor little things were changed, (such
>as the gender of the psychiatrist he went to) but nothing
>major seemed out of place until the scene near the end with
>the aliens in suit coats and the strangeness that went on then.
>I seem to remember the movie having something really
>out of place near the end that involved the aliens
>dressed up like humans who removed their faces to show
>human faces under them.  I don't seem to remember that
>from the book. (Not to say it wasn't in the book as I
>didn't read some bits of the book as well as I read other
>bits)
>Did the movie stick to the book or did streiber take
>liberties with his own supposedly true story?

In my opinion and frankly, the movie absolutely sucked donkey
dust..it meandered, and was boring.

The BOOK was much better...a lot more scarier.

On the BBS side of the UFO echoes..we have been indulging in quite
a bit of "Whitley bashing"...and for some good reasons.

There's _something_ about Strieber that, in my opinion, just does
not ring "true".

Also, it did NOT help that Strieber (in my opinion) has associated
himself with a KNOWN Govt dis-info agent, such as Bill Moore (of
Moore and Berlitz fame) and I've watched how Strieber has "changed"
his tune over the last 2 years.

Strieber, in a letter that has (by now) been widely circulated, has
discontinued his "Communion Newsletter" and done an about face on
some of his views of UFOlogists. In short, he blasted them.

I can only conclude (my opinion) that whether or not Strieber had
his views changed by his own experiences or by  "other means", is
that he was perhaps "gotten to" by agents of dis-info. It has _also_
crossed my mind that Strieber could also be PART of the dis-info
campaigns.

Like I said, there's something about Strieber that just don't seem
right. If the GOVT wanted to know just how far the abduction syndrome
had progessed...what better way then to set up a GREAT cover story
with a well known writer to get people's NAMES when they poured out
their stories in the "Communion Newsletter". But then again, this
is just one of my theories :-)

One of the covert methods of disinformation is to impart partial
truth and partial fiction in such a way that it neatly detours
you from reaching the necessary conclusions to perhaps take
action (if any).

Personally, I have kept _uppermost_ in my mind, the FACT that this
guy IS a writer and I've not ever hopped on the "Strieber bandwagon"
(such as it has been). My opinion is that he _may_ have had a real
experience but just _what kind_ of "experience" is that to want?

I just read the "Father Young" postings that were put here re: Strieber
and found them most illuminating.

I also *still* of the opinion that nothing of GOD would abduct people
and mutilate cattle, nor cause undue stress or seek to possess the
soul of "the chosen" in a horrific and non-volitional way.

I, for one, am no way interested in taking up Strieber's FICTION
as the truth and am diametrically opposed to Strieber's methods
of "getting closer" to _his_ version of reality.

If you want a _better_ work to study abduction phenomena, I would
recommend Dr Edith Fiore's books on her case studies of abduction
victims. It would save you from all the BS of wading through Strieber's
"work". One of her better known books is called "Encounters" and is
a good book, in my opinion.

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: OH Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 03:38:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 126

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (CLARK BRIAN R) writes:
>
>
>       I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would
>    like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen.
>    How can we assess the credibility of UFO information?  The OH Krill
>    file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the
>    UFO community; for what reasons is this so?  How can the would-be
>    investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit?
>
>       Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would
>    help the rest of us by sharing their experience.  Or is there no way of
>    avoiding the dis-information?  Don, you have the floor...
>
>    That's my two-cents worth.  Spell-checked and everything.
>
>    Brian
>
>
That's a very good question. One of the hardest things to do in this
field is to establish what is credible (by that I mean checkable facts
and solid sources) and to separate the "wheat from the chaff". Unfortunately,
the "chaff" is abundant.

Let's take for example a "newbie" coming into this field "raw"..he get's
ahold of some Bill Moore/Bill Cooper/John Grace text and proceeds to
read all he can, or perhaps he's seen a Bill Cooper lecture.

These above-mentioned people (I left out John Lear :-) would have
you believing after reading their material that you had better sleep
with a shotgun nearby lest you get dragged off as a "snack" :^_)

This is to say, that in this field and like many others, there are
individuals who are ONLY out to either make a NAME (ie EGO) for
themselves or are just profit-minded and don't give a damn what
they say to people, as long as they get the bucks rolling in (Cooper)
or who are so paranoid (Lear) or who are just following their own
hidden agendas and have not proven themselves reliable and who
have been involved in dubious Govt smear campaigns (Moore-->Bennewitz).

Bear in mind...that if the objective is to cross a booby-trapped
field, you must step gingerly. There is NO "short cuts". It is
better for you to be skeptical and seek documentation for some
(obviously) wild claims in this field. This field also encompasses
the "fringes" as well (Channelling, Space Brothers,related paranormal
events).

When someone or some group makes "statements" or "claims"...if they
are credible, they will usually cite the references or sources so you
can go out and check them. Beware and flee from anyone who claims to
have the _only_ "truth" and when challenged upon their sources, resorts
to personal attacks instead. "Thou unbeliever!"

I can be both a believer _and_ a skeptic depending on the case.

If you are _really_ into research, be prepared to do ALOT of reading,
cross-checking and sourcing out documentation. Do NOT accept or assume
anything at face value. It seems to be a hallmark of this field that
the _more_ you read; instead of getting your questions answered, you
end up with even more questions :-)

The one thing that I truly do hate to see..is when (supposedly)
UFO groups that are "on the same side" are instead, very competitive
with each other and make disparaging remarks about each other in public
forums that do NOT serve the best interest of anyone. If the GOAL is
truly to educate the public, the best way, in my opinion is LIVE up
to those "high and noble" ends and to keep their "dirty laundry and
snide remarks" to themselves and to work harder to "talk the talk
and walk the walk". IF they would do this, the public would be
_better_ served and it would be a "win win" for all.

I'm involved in ALL the UFO BBS echoes and try to be helpful in everything
I do. I had to learn the hard way that to participate in witless and
pointless flame wars between "this group is F*cked up and we do it better"
is a vast waste of my time and frankly is counter-productive. I would
hope to pass on this to you so you can avoid embroiling yourself in
elitist notions of "them vs us".

The largest UFO "echo" on the BBS's is called "FIDO UFO" and is often
called "Fight-o-UFO" in derision. It is large,simply because it has
a huge backbone to travel upon and whenever you get about 50-100 people
on this large of an echo (on BBS's it's called an echo..on Usenet it
would probably be called a "newsgroup), you can *expect* to have such
a diversity of opinion that flareups are bound to happen from time
to time and there _was_ such a time when it truly did earn it's
"fight-o-net" epithet honestly...but things  change and people do
not stay static and there has since been a "change of mgmt" of
moderators on that echo...so it would seem that we who do a good
bit of discussions on the various UFO echoes could profit by checking
our EGO at the door and getting "on with it". In truth, we are ALL
trying to "get to the bottom of the whole thing", and the better
we can all cooperate with each other, the better off we are.

I take a moment to mention this to you because at some point, you
may "discover" that there are UFO message areas on your local BBS
that you may not be aware of. These areas are actually national
echoes that are carried via FIDO (some on the backbone) and some
are independently fed through to other networks. The available
UFO echoes exponentially dwarf in message content (you will
have to sort the noise to signal ratio tho) than what is available
on Usenet here.

What is available?

Info.Paranet
Fido UFO (IFNA)
UFINET_USA (Bill English's national echo)
Bama (The Alabama UFO network arm of MUFON)
MUFONET
Contact (echo of MUFONET)
ET
Eckar (is it still around?)
ASK_UFO (UFO MAGAZINE echo off Paranet)

Just to name a few....


Don



--
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 16:06:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 21

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>In real life, abduction experiences are interesting,
>but they are all basically the same.  Although they invoke some emotion, they
>don't to the degree that Whitley's do.

Isn't it possible that *most* people who are abducted probably aren't as
good at describing the experience as Strieber is?  A third party
documenting a case is able to tell what happened and perhaps the effect
it had on the person, but describing their emotions and putting the
reader in their position is much harder.  Seems to me, Strieber does
both of these things and that's the difference in his story from others.

Is there something in the story you object to, Mike?  I mean, is there
something that just doesn't fit and is just crazy?  Simply because
Strieber is able to vividly describe the occurances doesn't mean they
aren't real or are embellished.

>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Reply to 'Web of Conspiracy'....ALIEN PLOT??!?!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 05:31:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Zachary Harman) writes:
>There was a time in my life when I was convinced of this whole
>alien plot.  Now however, I am very skeptical of it all.  After
>reading Don Allen's four-part "Web of Conspiracy" posting, I am
>dissapointed.  Can anyone possibly believe that something so
>fictional is really going on here?
>
>I'm not saying it's a lie.  I wouldn't be overly suprised if it
>was true.  But _ALOT_ of doubt exists in my mind and we all better
>hope it's a lie.  If what I read WAS the truth.....
>
>
>Then GOD bless us all...
>
>(What does everyone else think about this???)

You *should* be skeptical of all of this...I would recommend that
you write to the C.A.C. organization to get further info and do
some checking on all of this _before_ you either accept it or
reject it.

Take a cue from Jim Shaffer who took the time to respond to the OH Krill
postings and see what *outpoints* he noted.

I noted when I first read this "tome" that the references to Dr Beter
could also be cross-checked against "The Shaver Mystery" of the underground
Deros/Teros and Reptoid connection. Also, in checking this out a bit
further I've come across a reference to a publication called:

"The Alien Digest"
The Aquarian Church of Universal Service
PO Box 1116 McMinnville, Oregon 97128

Which mentioned Paul Shockley's name in it. This publication is published
6 times a year and it's subscription rate is $27 per year or $10 an issue.

I have an introductory copy of this in my hands right now, and it even goes
_further_ than the Web files do in some of it's claims. Part of *research*
is tracking down what is real and what is BS. People are fond of giving
opinions on things, but unless you do some checking...then you're only
left with _speculation_.

I'm going to say something and I know it's going to sound like a cliche'
but it really does prove out:

One must study to know, know to understand, understand to judge arightly.

Don




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Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!attcan!craig
From: [e-mail] (Craig Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 13:58:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Craig Campbell)
Organization: AT&T Canada Inc., Toronto
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight.  Presuming the
>greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is
>there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human-
>like form?  (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.)  And oxygen-breathing to boot?  Why
>can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even?
>Does this make sense to anybody?

>  ___            :  Eric P. Herrera            :  My opinions only...


No reason why ET could'n be jelly fish.  Of course, you must consider that an
ammonia-absorbing jellyfish would probably view the surface of the earth
as a hostile and uninviting stop.  Think of it this way, how much time would
you spend on an alien planet where the atmosphere was totally hostile and
inhospitable?  Compare that to a planet which was very similar to your home.

As for number of appendages, who knows?  Perhaps 2 arms and 2 eyes turn out
to be commonly 'ideal' in earth like environments?  How many animals on this
planet don't have 2 arms, two eyes, etc?

"Why?" is a very important question, but no more so than "Why not?",

craig
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Helicopter Stuff
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 21:32:47 GMT
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 43


  What's the deal with this helicopter stuff? I haven't read a UFO book
in a while. The last one I read was about two months ago ("The Gulf Breeze
Sightings") and before that, "Communion, in early 1990. The Gulf Breeze
book makes some mention of helicopters circling Ed Walter's neighborhood.
This dosent sound too unusual, as he lives across the river from
a military base.

 However, there seems to be some implication of some sinister aspect to
having helicopters around your house. Is this supposed to be related
to UFOs?

  Please advise. I may have grounds for a good story comming up....:-).

  I have black -- military style, and white civilian style helicopers
circling my neighborhood on a daily basis. All of these are unmarked. I was
outside with my neighbor yesterday as one circled our heads. I waved. He
suggested we call the FAA, as the air traffic was starting to bother him.
These choppers come over every day at about dusk, circle once or twice, then
leave. I guess they go on to circle other peoples houses.

   By the way, I live very close to a military air base (Moffet Naval Air
Station 20mi away), a commercial airport (San Jose International 15 miles away),
and a private airport (Reed-Hillview abt 5 miles away). As my home is on
the side of a hill perpendicular to the take-off direction of all of these
airbases, we tend to not have direct fly-overs. But, the traffic has
increased dramatically in the last two months. We also appear to be singled
out in our neighborhood for the helicopters.

  Do I have grounds to write a UFO book? Are there any publishers out there?
What am I supposed to look for? Are the helicopters searching for UFOs? Are
the Helicopters UFOs in disguise? Is the NSA staking out my house ?
Enquiring minds want to know.

  Im willing to write a book if someone will pay me handsomely for it. Just
tell me what to write.

  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rutgers!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc
From: [e-mail] (Marc Sabb)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Reading material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 22:07:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>    [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>    One question...  I presume that we are all familiar with the
>    plain of Nazca in Peru (big ground etchings of monkeys,
>    hummingbirds, spiders and other things discernable only from a
>    pretty good altitude, and supposedly quite old)...  any
>    theories, debunks, etc.?  Is this a FAQ?
>
>... I seem to recall some fellas (funded by Nat'l Geographic Soc., I
>think) a few years back trying to create a hot-air balloon with
>time-of-drawings-available materials and techniques.  They succeeded.
>   Anybody got a 'harder' reference?
>Charles


 No harder reference but a much more plusible explanation.

 These folks were awed by nature since most of it was unexplained except
using magical ideas and beings. They believed in Gods who watched them.
The drawings,etchings,carvings were for these Gods to look at.

 "Oh wow (insert approp. God) look at that monkey, those guys we put there
are ok, let's not kill them yet."

 The techniques to make them are easily understood by anyone who knows
a little geometry, I used to be a surveyor. One doesn't even have to realize
that one is using geometry, only to try diffent techniques on a small scale
using sticks and ropes then enlarge the idea.

 Really, no mystery at all.

 Look at the large Van Gogh in this weeks paper made by a farmer out of flowers.
Nothing to it but perserverence. And his Van Gogh looks really nice!


--
Marc Sabb                   INTERNET: [e-mail]
Optical Sciences Center     VOICE:(602)-621-4099
University of Arizona       Disclaimer:None
Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721  Not opinions,observations!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Summary: I miss a crucial point in one of Mike's posts...
Message-ID: <_#X}[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 23:12:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

In an earlier posting, I write:

>Fair point, but why should we now be convinced that he is making it up?  You
>still have not presented even casual evidence that Streiber is a liar.  It is
>in all our interests to establish why it is so.  If you have information, but
>for some reason cannot expose it, then please tell us, and I'm sure we'll
>respect that.  But at the moment, all you have told us is that Whitley is a
>Bad Boy, without giving any real explanation.

In an even earlier posting, Michael Corbin writes:

>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>
>I have already posted something to the net about Strieber.  I have many
>stories that I could tell, but it is not something for public consumption.

OK, I missed this the first time.  I apologise for dragging the `you aren't
telling us anything' thread on.  I do, however, hold that your (exposed)
objections are not enough to convince us of the absolute truth that
Strieber is a crook (just as his books are not enough to convince us that
it happened).  I hope you can see this point, but I'll respect the confidence
of your sources, and let this facet of the discussion rest.

Andrew
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!rex!samsung!mips!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!beddow
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Beddow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Streiber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 91 14:13:55 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 19

I haven't given much thought to UFO's since I was a science fiction fan during  puberty.  Recently I decided to check out what was new in the area because I    had read Streiber and it aroused my curiosity.  In the last two weeks I have reaEd Ruppelt's 1956 book on his project Blue Book experience, a recent book on theRoswell incident, and Jacques Vallee's book called Confrontations.  These are
some conclusions I am drawing from these books, and the postings here for the   last month (including Don Allen's texts.)

To me Ruppelt and Vallee are the most convincing authors.  They are obviously   quite far apart on the philosophical spectrum, but they are both very           disciplined and, in their own ways, modest.  They also have the quality of      humor and spontaneous insight which is very hard to fake as evidence of         *real* sincerity.  The Roswell book was disappointing ( don't have it here for  the cite, but it has been mentioned dozens of times recently.)  Despite the     dogged thoroughness of the inve










stigators, they only quote one source in         establishing that no V2 or A9 rocket could have been involved.  Since the       Military's behavior would be explained by the loss of an experimental rocket
with (possibly dwarf human) occupants, I think more effort and documentation    should go into following up that angle.  The other recurrent theme was the      foil with some kind of molecular memory.  But it doesn't add up to a very       satisfactory report.  It was of particular interest to me because my father     was a leutenant colonel in the Army Air Corps, and he on at least three         occaisions remarked that he had seen things in Nevada or Utah that no one would believe ( I think he was referr










ing to Dugway, and I was assuming at the time thathat he was referring to testing of biological warfare materials...)

Striber is completely unconvincing to me.  As scary entertainment it is pretty  good.  As *reporting* it leaves me feeling that someone is pulling the wool     over my eyes.

I have *no* use for the aliens eating people stuff.  Why would a galactic       civilization want to open a MacHuman franchise here, and go to such great       lengths avoiding our detection equipment?  If they are as powerful as they      are presented to be, they can just harvest us at will.  IF they are playing     games with us, there is some other scenario than the "two-legged beefsteak,
with a side of glandular byproducts."

That is where Vallee is intriguing.  He suggests that the scale, sites, and     details of the encounters point to a form of meta-discourse that must be        occuring between humans and their own expectations as projected from some other layer of consciousness or reality.  I had heard of this view a few years ago anddismissed it as just another effort by the Jungians to stake a claim on some    wierd psychic territory.  But Vallee makes a better case for it.  I haven't
bought it yet, but it deserves some thought.

I have yet to see any photographic evidence that is compelling, and with the    rapid development of digital image technology that is becoming a spurious       source of information.  I have never seen a UFO, nor known anyone who claims    to...but something is going on.

Until I have an encounter, I must use my intuition and experience as a researcher and writer to "read between the lines" of the books available.  I recommend ththat everyone interested in this field find and read Ruppelt's book, at the     very least.  He makes no bones about the "cover-ups" and disinformation efforts of the air force, which makes his other disclosures more convincing.

-Jeff
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 91 00:28:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1784 alt.conspiracy:6633

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>>
>>  This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer
>>book form with better character development. It is probably best read
>>on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some
>>exotic Asian destination.
>>
>> Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There
>>was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may
>>even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version.
>>
>> If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>
>Naw...now why would you think that :-)
>
>I would be *remiss* if I didn't include something here that I just
>spotted on the BBS echo called "Fido UFO" direct from Bill English.

 Heh heh...boy..I feel a  lot better knowing you guys dont take that
 stuff seriously.

 Anyway, a Hugo is a science-fiction story award. The Krill story
 could be a big hit as a movie with some big name stars.

 Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
> > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT
> > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
> > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>
>
> >   This has occurred to me as well.
>
>I have found that most people who have a traumatic *personal* experience with
>this subject are more inclined not to publicize it.  If they do, it is usually


 Far be it from me to defend Strieber. Writing is his business. A million
 plus dollars would motivate me to modify my beliefs in a flash. No
 kidding.

 I do have the opinion, though, that like most "stars" he probably believes
 his own bulls**t. At least, I think hes convinced himself of it. Ive written
 to Strieber and have been dutifully inserted into a mailing list. As
 a result of having my name on his list, I am beginning to receive form
 letters asking me to buy back issues of the "Communion Letter".  This
 is exactly the kind of bogus behaviour that leads me to feel that this
 UFO-examiners machine is not going to provide any light on the subject
 in the long run.  I think a lot of money will be generated, and
 things will go unsolved. If you want to write an interesting fiction
 story here it is:

    UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded organization
    covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and origin
    of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the profits
    rolling in.

    By the way, Ive already written this story.


    Joe (still waiting for a publisher)


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 91 01:37:22 GMT
References: <steve.681868113@ram> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 104


 I have been thinking about this for a long time. I have been thinking
 about UFOs and whatnot since I was a little kid. At various times
 in my life I have taken different positions. When I was in grade school,
 I was an ardent believer. I had some good stories and I told them.
 Little kids have no crediblity. As an adult, I also know that little kids
 have perception problems. I brought my three year old daughter to a horse
 corral and sat her on the fence. A friendly horse came over. I said to
 my kid, "Lookit the horsey!"  My daughter looked right past the horse
 no more than 2 feet from her face. She couldnt see it. The damn horse
 might have been a tree for all she cared. I could not get her to
 acknowledge that animal for the life of me. When the horse snorted and
 pawed around with his hoof, she immediately recognized  the huge brown
 shape was living. She jumped into my arms and screamed. See, she had
 never seen any living thing that big before.

 So, kids dont know what they are seeing. Or should I say, kids process
 information differently than adults. This is a gap we all know about.

 So what? So as I got older and older my position on this alien thing
 changed. I started to think to myself, what the hell are these people
 seeing? Maybe its like my daughter. Maybe these big horses come right
 up to us and we look right past them until they do something that make
 us recognize them. So what are we seeing? What the hell is going on?

 When I read this net, I see a lot of different opinions and I try
 hard not to be associated with any of them. I want to have my own
 opinion. I dont want to be categorized. This is a real and terror producing
 thing that is happening to people. This is kind of like a war, I think.
 There are the gold miners out there who sit above the melee below and
 extract cash out of the gullible. These people are on both sides of
 the fence. They are both skeptics and believers.

 There also seem to be a lot of people trying out new ideas for
 science fiction stories. These people seem to delight in getting
 the more gullible on the net to believe their trash. Fine with me. This is
 like those three-card-monte people in New York city. Theres always some
 bozo who believes its not a trick and he loses his shirt. Im not sure
 who is the criminal and who is the victim here. At any rate, these
 two groups of people were made for each other. This has been happening
 for all of recorded history. Its nice to know some things never change.

 But what side am I on? What side are YOU on for that matter? Why the
 hell do you read this?

 Folks, I am not gullible. I have spent a lot of time being gullible and
 it has cost me dearly. I have learned the value of protecting my open
 mind.

 However, I detect there may be one thread through this whole alien
vistor discussion. That is, your reaction. I mean you, the person who
is reading this now. What is your reaction if I tell you that I know
for certain this whole thing is a joke? This whole UFO/Mystery/Abduction/
Greys/Barnie&Betty Hill/Whitley Strieber/Govmt Conspiracy/Crop Circles/
garbage is one big science fiction story. How do you feel?
  What if I have absolute evidence? Forget your doubting, this is an
  experiment. I am experimenting with you. Pretend I have the evidence
  that you believe is true. I can tell you that this is all false and you
  believe me.

  How do you feel?

  I think the reaction to this is simply dissappointment. Many people want
  this to be true. A lot of people simply want to believe this -- we are being
  visited and abducted on a regular basis by beings from elsewhere.

  Why? Obvious reasons I guess. We want to believe there is a higher purpose
  to life and maybe this is a non-religious way to do it. We want to believe
  there is more than getting the car gassed up and going to work everyday.

  But there is one other reason. Some of you need to believe this is true.
  Some of you need to believe it because you need some way to put what has
  happened to you in perspective. You need to fit your dreams and terror
  into some body/forum/group were you can examine it like it wasnt part of
  you.

  The people in this latter group could care less about Whiltey Strieber and
  Crop Circles and channelers and carpetbaggers who want their money.

  What side are they on? What side are you on?

  These people are on their own side.

  Screw the talk about shapes in English cornfields. Who gives a rat's ass
  about the politics between the UFOologists and the people who want to
  encroach on their markets.... What about the people? What about the
  people caught in this s**t? I assure you, for them, this is not funny.
  This is not an entertaining subject to be bantered around the lunchroom.
  This is as personal as ones own death.

  If this is real it is surely the foundation of a lifetime of terror and
  doubt.

  I ask you. You know who you are. What side are you on? Tell these bozos
  what you really think. Do you know what you are seeing? What can you
  remember?


  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Keywords: Warning: Contains humor directed at advertising professionals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 91 04:51:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1787 alt.conspiracy:6635

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
> Anyway, a Hugo is a science-fiction story award. The Krill story
> could be a big hit as a movie with some big name stars.

Actually, a Hugo is not a "story" award--they're given to short stories,
novels, movies, etc.  (They are science fiction awards, like the
Nebulas, but you don't have to be a "story" to get one.)

Me, I just collect Clios.  I picked up two this year (I would've gotten
more, but I only had two hands...)

                        -- Kibo

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         and typeface designer.
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 91 03:55:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
> > UFO-nut (or average person, for that matter).  I'd like to see how *you*
> > handle the situation he's (apparently) been put into.
>
>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that
>convinced you that he was telling the truth?  I suspect that he is a lot
>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility.  I
>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that
>Strieber was making it all up.  But why?
>
> > BTW, it's comments like yours that have led Strieber to label ufologists
> > "the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered."
>
>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game.  After a
>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship.  Tell me,
>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any
>resources to help them with their problems?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This seems to be the heart of the matter. This guy has done an about face
in just the last year alone. I have heard with my own two ears the "whit"
admit on TV interviews a few years back that he is no UFO investigator
but yet he comes off on his high horse acting like if HE is the _only_
true grail. This guy is persuing some agenda and it isn't to get to
the bottom of the truth.

In evaluating Whit's last Communion Newsletter, I noted that he not only
blasted UFOlogists, but also this would include his (former) friend
Budd Hopkins as well, as he lumps him into the same category of the
"blasted and damned".

If I *really* wanted to get caustic on Whit...I might remind everyone
reading this thread that he IS a horror fiction writer, and for a double
bonus..had associated himself with a KNOWN Govt Dis-info agent, William
L. Moore.

My recommendation to anyone _seriously_ interested in doing research
on alien abduction is to get a subscription to UFO MAGAZINE and read
Dr Jean Mundy's articles in that magazine. Or Dr Edith Fiore's book
"Encounters", or pick up some books from Budd Hopkins.

Mike brings up a good point regarding all the people that had depended
upon or looked up to Strieber..and since Whit has now ABANDONED them,is
this the kind of responsible behaviour of a self-styled "leader" that
one should put ANY credibility on?

If I had to *choose* between Strieber's "visitors" or Billy Meiers Pleiadians..

I'd pick the Pleiadians..at _least_ they don't abduct people, stick needles
in you, and leave your soul to rot in hell.

What is the cause of Strieber's change of mind? Gee..I wonder if Bill Moore
could be...

At least Whit was right about one thing..he is NO investigator..no _credible_
UFOlogist will EVER have anything to do with William L. Moore

This adds a new dimension to the "UFO working Group" (ala Howard Blum)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Keywords: GO Whitley GO!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 91 04:42:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1KR}[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 104

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell) writes:
>[e-mail] (Andrew Shires) writes:
>
>=>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that
>=>convinced you that he was telling the truth?  I suspect that he is a lot
>=>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility.  I
>=>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that
>=>Strieber was making it all up.  But why?
>
>=>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game.  After a
>=>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship.  Tell me,
>=>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any
>=>resources to help them with their problems?
>
>=>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
>
>>I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as
>>Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you
>>said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by
>>UFOlogists.  You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you
>>still don't say why.  Can you tell the net what you think he was up to?
>>And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion?
>
>I second this!  Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some*
>facts, I don't find you very reasonable.  I'll *bet* your main objection
>to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really
>AREN'T evil.  At least that classification would be too simplistic
>according to him.  Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with
>aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans.  I find that argument
>very thin and simplistic.
>
This is because basically, you have of the nine known alien races visiting
this planet, about 95% of the abduction reports are related to the various
flavours of Greys. There are some good Greys, but it's marginal in my
opinion. The Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli Greys have their own agenda, none
of which is known to be beneficial.

The Greys form of "contact" is akin to the "Fred Flintstone" method..which
is to say, that the victims have NO choice in the matter and are just
dragged away and the Greys do what they will to the victim irregardless
of what the victims wishes are. There's pain involved in most of their
contacts. Very few abduction reports have I ever seen where the victims
felt "uplifted" or spiritually edified. Examinations are routinely
carried out on the luckless humans and the Greys also LIE and tell the
victims that they are "looking after their own good", or "we are here
to preserve your race"...

You should read Dr Edith Fiore's book "Encounters"..this will open your
eyes. If you're relying on Whitley Strieber to tell you the "truth",
you have been deceived. Sorry to break this to you guys on this thread,
but do some research and further study of the abduction cases, and THEN
come back and re-evaluate Striebers "work". Read Budd Hopkins books..or
books by Leo Sprinkle. In most forced abduction cases, there is a
considerable amount of PTSD involved (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome).

For even a _more_ critical look, pick up a copy of "Confrontations" ,
by Jacques Vallee. This guy is a scientist and does not pull his punches.

Basically you are looking at a black and white scenario..the "black"
involves the *negative* aspects of contact. This is cattle mutilations,
forced abductions, attacks, wild tales of Lizard men (Dracos, Insect
creatures, Reptoids) and generally "things" that _could_ be considered
demonic in nature and in practice. These beings are NOT beneovolent.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have the races from Sirius, Lyra
and the Pleiadians. These have not been known to have abducted any human
or performed outrageous acts of violence upon their person.

A good example would be the Pleiadians associated with the Billy Meier
case in Switzerland. The Pleiadian form of contact is gentle and is
announced via telepathy before any meeting. The Pleiadians usually
have a uplifting message (Semjase). They also look very much like us
and certainly not like any weierdness like the greys. It's quite
possible that they may even be our elder brothers and sisters. I
could NOT say the same for the amoral/unemotional Greys.

There is a *world* of difference between the two types of contact.
Unfortunately, the Greys don't have a "prime directive" of the sorts
like the Pleiadians seem to espouse, so this is why you will see
many MORE reports of the negative type. God/Cosmic-centered beings
do NOT abduct or terrorize humans. GodLESS Greys have no such
compunction. I wish you could view a video tape called "A Strange
Harvest" by Linda Moulton Howe. This documents the "high-minded"
contact that the Greys and lower alien forms carry out on a
routine basis. This is a fact, and their victims are all too frequently
littered about the world.

I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you really should do some
more research. You could start by reading those books I mentioned above.

Also, it would benefit you to delve into William L. Moore's association
with Paul Bennewitz and how he ruined this mans life for the sake
of a GOVT Dis-info program. Then you might have a clue as to motives.

Don




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles / Books?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Aug 91 03:19:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>
>       Can any one recomend a current book on crop circles?
>       Preferably one with good airal photos?
>
>                           Thanks!
>


I could recommend a *great* book..it's called "Circular Evidence",
written by Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews. It has about 90 pictures
(called in the book, plates) of assorted circles and is a good read
as well. The authors don't take any particular stands as to what causes
the circles, but just provide the pictures and some background on each
plate.

This is not exactly the kind of book that you could waltz into a B. Dalton
or Waldenbooks to find. I went to about 7 bookstores in the Central Fla
area and finally located it (twas' the last copy!) at a New Age Bookstore :-)

The book itself is a wide type paperback of sorts (about 9" x 7") and has
an aerial shot of a crop circle on the front cover. It has 191 pages.

If you don't feel like running all over town or waiting for 6 weeks for
 your local bookseller to locate it, you can order directly from
the publisher at:

                    Phanes Press
                    PO Box 6081
                    Grand Rapids, Michigan
                    49516
                             Cover price is $14.95

You will not be disappointed :-)

Don






>
>
>--
>=========================================================================
>  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
>Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp.                     [e-mail]
>=========================================================================


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Aug 91 17:10:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 9

Re: Don Allen's bashing of Strieber

Okay, Don, we've beaten the Strieber horse to death, so let's bring up
something else that's related:  What exactly has Bill Moore done that
has gotten him the label of "dis-info agent"?  You mentioned something
about him giving false testimony to MUFON?  Could you give us the whole
story as you know it?
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!philipla
From: [e-mail] (Philip LAFORNARA)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Aug 91 16:38:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Philip LAFORNARA)
Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher J. Shields) writes:
>Whoa! Maybe I'm outta line here but people have been posting stuff that
>I just can't agree with...
>
>1> "Communion" as a movie SUCKED cinematography-wise and somewhat story
>wise. Yes it was very much "here's my story, take it or leave it", But
>Peter Weller did a really lousy job and I didn't get the ending ( no,
>
   I think it was Christopher Walken in this movie - an excellent actor,
but I agree with you - he was awful in an awful film.  I should also
say that I have read _Communion_, and found it to be disturbing as
fiction but somewhat preposterous as non-fiction.  Haven't read the
second book yet.

>2> Strieber had an MRI .....NOT a Cat Scan like people have been saying.
>This was reported in a year-old or so issue of OMNI ( I can't remember
>the date but I do remember the article ) A white spot showed up on his
>MRI around the area of his optic nerve. This could be an alien implant
>or it could be an air bubble. In the movie the needle was inserted in
>his ear yet in the book it was inserted into his left nostril. The book
>makes more sense. Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni
>that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that
>Strieber claims to have.
>
   I'd be much more likely to belive claims of what can or can't be
done in the human body from someone who was somewhat better trained
in physiology and surgery than Bud Hopkins.  It is important to take
claims from so-called "experts" with a grain of salt when they are
well outside their area of expertise.

>3> If space is infinite what the fuck makes us the only/most advanced
>intellegence in the universe? NOT!
   Agreed.  How about this, though:  If space is infinite, what makes
it likely that we will be visited by some of these intelligences.  The
probability rapidly approaches zero when the volume to be covered
approaches infinity.

>4> THEY haven't disproved alien intellegence exsists.
   Well, actually it is _impossible_ to prove that something does not
exist.  The burden of proof is really on those who claim that these
creatures from outer-space are actually visiting us, and no one
has even come close to that yet.

>c.shields


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara                         1 Microsoft Way
[e-mail]                Redmond, WA 98052-6399
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.

Tpday's Wisdom:
     I can remember a time when the voices in my head only said
                       what I told them to.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Is Spielberg responsible?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 02:14:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 18
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

But seriously folks, didn't the Betty/Barney Hill story precede
_CEotTK_ by *several* years?  If memory serves me, the Hills claimed
to have been abducted while on a vacation, driving through the
Catskills.  They didn't recall the encounter immediately, although
they were aware of "lost time."  Under hypnosis (separately), they
both recounted essentially the same abduction story, greys and all.
I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by
astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar)
perspective!

OK, PLEASE don't tell me that the Hills were revealed as a hoax!

I think the Hills' fun took place in the '60s, and I think that and
other stories were the inspiration for _CEotTK_ and _ET_.  Take
THAT, Spielberg!

Eric P. [e-mail]...Metaphor and I have a
mutual agreement;  I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 02:28:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by
>astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar)
>perspective!

The only problem with that is that given n stars, there is a place in the
universe that will make them look like ANY pattern you choose.  We're talking
about (1) a LOT of stars (the Universe is BIG, really BIG, extraodinarily HUGE
to paraphrase Adams :-) and (2) infinite vantage points.  Give me a pattern,
and given enough time, I'll find a spot in the universe that allows you to
see that pattern of stars.  NBD.

>Eric P. [e-mail]...Metaphor and I have a


--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 07:30:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell) writes:
>The only problem with that is that given n stars, there is a place in the
>universe that will make them look like ANY pattern you choose.  We're talking
>about (1) a LOT of stars (the Universe is BIG, really BIG, extraodinarily HUGE
>to paraphrase Adams :-) and (2) infinite vantage points.  Give me a pattern,
>and given enough time, I'll find a spot in the universe that allows you to
>see that pattern of stars.  NBD.
>--
>Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
>Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into

Accepted, but I guess I digressed there.  The point I was trying to
make was this:  A recent poster wrote that alot of alleged abductees
had come forth with their stories suspiciously after _CEotTK_.  I
felt that if anyone had inspired anyone else, *they* inspired
*Spielberg*.
--
......................................................................
  ___           : Eric P. Herrera        :  Metaphor Computer Systems
 (__ '     .    : [e-mail]  :  Mountain View, CA
 /    ,_  ,  _  :......................................................
(___)/ (_/(_(_, : Metaphor wouldn't want ME to speak for them! (grunt)
......................................................................
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!ma913553
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the facts anyone?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 01:40:21 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 45














 I've been reading this newsgroup since march this year and I'd like to pass
comment on a few things that have interested me the most.
Serious replies would be fully appreciated.

First of all there doesn't seem to have been all that much interest generated
by some of Don Allen's postings such as the Tesla Bladeless Turbine engine
-it seems to me to real enough, but it makes me wonder if it really is as good
as is claimed , then why didn't someone take advantage of it DECADES ago?
Anyone know?

Now with this Bob Lazar bloke. Judging by the files that have been posted on
him, he seems to have a fairly solid case for us to believe he actually
worked at Area 51. But what he says about what's inside this place is another
matter. Stuff like "there were no physical connections between the components
of the propulsion system" (not a direct quote) , makes it sound even more
unbelievable.

Also ,
wouldn't a super-heavy element with atomic number of 115 be too unstable
(even though at atomic no. 114 (I think) an electron shell would be filled
-therefore making it more stable) to use as a "fuel"?

*-The interview Don posted (with Lazar)  was recorded back in late '89,
  so I'm wondering what's he said/done since?

Also in that interview Lazar said he would give Bill Goodman some figures
(such as the resonant frequency for a gravity wave) , which he couldn't remember
at the time. Did anyone hear these announcements from Bill?

Glenn

University of South Australia.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <L+Z}[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 18:58:04 GMT
References: <1KR}[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

Don's post assumes that Dan Cogswell and I _believe_ what Strieber says to be
the truth.  This is not at all what we are suggesting, perhaps you ought to do
_your_ research on this thread.  Our argument (and I have tried to let this
lie recently, but I will have to clarify it here) is that Michael Corbin
cannot simply expect us to believe that Strieber is undoubtedly a liar,
without presenting any evidence to us on this matter.  Mike has declared that
he cannot discuss what he knows publicly.  This is fair enough.

What we are _not_ saying is that we believe that what Strieber says
happened to him actually did happen.

>Sorry to break this to you guys on this thread, but do some research and
>further study of the abduction cases, and THEN come back

Give us a break, Don.  We both have declared we are not authorities on the
matter (not to say that we haven't read around, either).  We are having a
simple discussion about presenting evidence.

>In most forced abduction cases, there is a
>considerable amount of PTSD involved (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome).

And Strieber makes out this doesn't happen?

>For even a _more_ critical look, pick up a copy of "Confrontations" ,
>by Jacques Vallee. This guy is a scientist and does not pull his punches.

I'm actually looking around for this book at the moment.

[deleted, stuff that shows Don believes in the Greys and how bad they are]

>I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you really should do some
>more research.

Not if research entails believing everything I read.

This post is also genuinely not meant to be a flame, but I feel you have just
jumped into the discussion without realising what is being discussed, with
your guns of condescension blazing.  Sorry.

>Don

Andrew Shires
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates
Message-ID: <4+Z}JK|@warwick.ac.uk>
Date: 19 Aug 91 19:14:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network news)
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
Lines: 43
Nntp-Posting-Host: lily

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>If I *really* wanted to get caustic on Whit...I might remind everyone
>reading this thread that he IS a horror fiction writer, and for a double
>bonus..had associated himself with a KNOWN Govt Dis-info agent, William
>L. Moore.

How is the latter known?  Can you present any documentation to me?  And we
have discussed the former adequately, re-read the thread.

Re Budd Hopkins, he seems to believe some pretty incredible stuff himself.

>Mike brings up a good point regarding all the people that had depended
>upon or looked up to Strieber..and since Whit has now ABANDONED them,is
>this the kind of responsible behaviour of a self-styled "leader" that
>one should put ANY credibility on?

This point, whilst serving the purpose of assassinating Strieber's
character (for whatever reasons), does not rule out the possible truth of his
experiences.  Is abducting good leaders part of the Grey's agenda (that you
claim to know quite well, it would seem)?  Or could it be that the
post-abduction trauma that Strieber experiences was putting too much pressure
on him and he packed it in?  Whatever the truth of all this, the observation
that Strieber has abandoned his flock has no immediate bearing on the quality
of his story.


>If I had to *choose* between Strieber's "visitors" or Billy Meiers
>Pleiadians..
>I'd pick the Pleiadians..at _least_ they don't abduct people, stick needles
>in you, and leave your soul to rot in hell.

What criteria for belief!  You're not serious?

>At least Whit was right about one thing..he is NO investigator..no _credible_
>UFOlogist will EVER have anything to do with William L. Moore
>
>This adds a new dimension to the "UFO working Group" (ala Howard Blum)

Whatever.  Where do we find out about this?

>Don

Andrew
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 20:23:01 GMT
References: <1KR}[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <L+Z}[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 37

[e-mail] (Andrew Shires) writes:

>Don's post assumes that Dan Cogswell and I _believe_ what Strieber says to be
>the truth.  This is not at all what we are suggesting, perhaps you ought to do
>_your_ research on this thread.  Our argument (and I have tried to let this
>lie recently, but I will have to clarify it here) is that Michael Corbin
>cannot simply expect us to believe that Strieber is undoubtedly a liar,
>without presenting any evidence to us on this matter.  Mike has declared that
>he cannot discuss what he knows publicly.  This is fair enough.

>What we are _not_ saying is that we believe that what Strieber says
>happened to him actually did happen.

Agreed.  I'd also like to add that in an area where nobody really knows
what's going on, it's just as likely that Strieber is correct as anyone
else.  Now, you can question his validity if you can point to a single
(or more) instance in which he simply goes beyond the realm of "normal"
abduction cases.  The fact that he tells his story well is not a strike
against him, in my opinion.

Further, Andrew and I have stated that we've formed our opinions of him
based on his writings (_Communion_ and _Transformation_) as opposed to
his actions as of late.  Don Allen himself said he's taken an "about
face" in the last year or so and seems to be persuing his own agenda.
The books were written several years ago and don't seem to have any
"agenda" associated with them, except to tell his story.  Whether he's
the same man now as he was when he wrote the books is a good question.

We should change this topic to dealing with the information in his two
non-fiction books.  Is that material real or not?  Maybe analyzing the
character of Strieber won't bring us to a conclusion.  What I really
want to know is if abductions and dealings with Greys is really the way
he says it is.  I don't care if he's a bum, etc..

>Andrew Shires
--
Dan Cogswell               [e-mail]
Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!harryo
From: [e-mail] (harold.r.holm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 05:40:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 18

With all I've read in this newsgroup since I latched on to it a
few months ago, I'm interested....who among the posters/readers
would actually SAY they've encountered one of these 'Grey' creatures?
Mr. Allen, perhaps??  Seems to me I did read of one poster a few
weeks ago claiming something along these lines, and that it would
not be a pleasant experience to look forward to.  But does anyone
else allege to have "first-hand" testimony??

And by the way (especially for Mr. Allen)....would these "things",
if they exist, be aware of communications such as this bulletin
board/newsgroup????....and who is utilizing it???  Seems to me any
"sufficiently advanced beings" would be tapped in all over networks
 like this.

H.R. Holm

*standard disclaimers, comment solely my own, etc.*
.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!iotm!jtb
From: [e-mail] (John P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 12:22:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: IotM Information Systems Inc.
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Zachary Harman) writes:
>It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the
>whole Aliens thing is a big LIE.

The government to my knowledge never said there were any aliens... Only the
UFOlogy crowd..

>
>It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!)

[Bunch of stuff about nazi foo-fighters etc, deleted]

>
>THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS.......
>
>I Repeat...
>
>THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS.......
>
>It's time to get the truth out in the open.

How about some evidence? At LEAST the aliens are real supporters TRY to give
some evidence.. You did nothing more then post a message.. Anyone could do
that.. Lets see some evidence.. I don't even want proof, just SOMETHING. If
you can't do that then you are no better than JOHNF (or whatever his name is).

>
>Get ready for something big really soon, folks.
>
>Just remember what I told you.
>

Haven't I heard this somewhere before? :-)

>
>
>-Zachary Harman
>

John
--
  //   John P. Gibbons        uucp: ..!uunet!iotm.ttank.com!jtb
\X/    La Habra, Ca    Internet: [e-mail]
"Once I had a dream, that worried me, like a drunken guillotine, lingering,
just above my head." -- Cat Stevens
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 17:07:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 48



Id be extremely skeptical of anyone who claimed to see one of these "people".

First of all, admitting that you thought you saw one would be tantamount
to admitting insanity or lying.

Second, I think that an overriding factor in such an experience, if we
are to believe the evidence already presented, is that you would

    a)  Not remember the experience

    b)  As the experience would fall so completely outside the realm of
        normal existence, you would not believe it was "real"

  Maybe hypnosis helps here. Although, maybe all hypnosis does is to help
you believe your fantasies are real.


   Joe


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (harold.r.holm) writes:
>With all I've read in this newsgroup since I latched on to it a
>few months ago, I'm interested....who among the posters/readers
>would actually SAY they've encountered one of these 'Grey' creatures?
>Mr. Allen, perhaps??  Seems to me I did read of one poster a few
>weeks ago claiming something along these lines, and that it would
>not be a pleasant experience to look forward to.  But does anyone
>else allege to have "first-hand" testimony??
>
>And by the way (especially for Mr. Allen)....would these "things",
>if they exist, be aware of communications such as this bulletin
>board/newsgroup????....and who is utilizing it???  Seems to me any
>"sufficiently advanced beings" would be tapped in all over networks
> like this.
>
>H.R. Holm
>
>*standard disclaimers, comment solely my own, etc.*
>.


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 04:19:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 89
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1804 alt.conspiracy:6652

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell) writes:
>[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>>And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether.
>
>Don,
>
>Can you speculate on Cooper's motives in presenting such wild
>information?  Is it strictly money?  I mean, some things he says are
>just simply ridiculous!
>

Can you say, "Rake in the bucks"?

SURE you can..I knew you could :-)

Among Bill Cooper's mutiples of problems..(I'm trying to word this carefully
so I don't get sued :-)

Cooper likes to beat his own drum real loudly. He also has been dishonest,
in my opinion, as to where he "appropriates" his sources. Point of fact,
I *could* upload all my extant collection of Cooper text to alt.alien.vis*
and let you folks see how many times you catch him changing his story :-)

Point of fact: When Cooper first hit Paranet a few years ago, he came on
like gangbusters..He *sounded* like a first class whistleblower and
highly credible person with a solid record. We have since discovered that
a good deal of what he claims as his "solid record" is vaporware :-)

Don Ecker did a *wonderful* expose' on Cooper a couple of years ago in
his 2 part series in UFO MAGAZINE, called "The Whistleblowers". Hmmm//
..I said coupla years ago..It was last summer in fact, right after
Timmy Bennett, a fanatic "Cooperite" uploaded one of Cooper's LONG
ravings upon the national UFO echo called "FIDO UFO"..This is when it
hit the fan :-)

I *really* feel sorry for people who attend one of Cooper's lectures
around the country. They are been paid a dis-service in my opinion.

Cooper makes WILD claims..this is why we call him "Wild Bill"..

To make a long story short, Cooper was thrown OFF the Paranet echo. Why?

Because, as time went by, and Cooper "changed" his story, people began
to get not only skeptical, but downright suspicious. It seemed there
for awhile, that Cooper was changing his story every week..When people
on the PN echo began to voice questions..Cooper got real HOSTILE and
started up his ad homenim attacks. He accussed more than a few people
of being "Govt agents". It wasn't like that Paranet didn't give him
a chance or failed to give him warning..they did. It got SO bad after
awhile, that people just got FED UP with Bill Cooper's attacks on
people whose "crime" merely consisted of just asking questions and
"who or what is your source" type requests. At this point, he got bounced
off the echo permanently. It was for valid reasons. I was a lurker
on PN at this time for some months before I began to post so I watched
the whole sordid episode.

Admittedly, I'm an *avid* Cooper basher..anyone that knows me on
the other UFO echoes can verify this :-)

If Mike Corbin spots this thread here, I'm sure he can add some
more specific details...

I just met Bill English in person this past weekend and spent a good
deal of time with him..at one time, English and Cooper *were* good
friends until English discovered what Cooper's _true_ motives were.
English has _alot_ of things to say about Cooper and NONE of them
are good :-)

If Bill Cooper *really* wanted to get some good work done, he needs
to clean up HIS act and stop shooting himself in the foot everytime
he opens his mouth. Calling people who disagree with him, "Govt Agents"
and slandering people by his personal attacks just will NOT cut it.

Is Cooper's data valid? Read some of it and realize that you may
be reading _others_ research and not necessarily his (as he's
fond of saying that it's *his* work).

Personally, and in my opinion, I would take Cooper's words with a 20
lb salt block :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!arizona.edu!arizona!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc
From: [e-mail] (Marc Sabb)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hanger 19 and Roswell incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 22:53:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <steve.681867692@ram> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 22

>In article <steve.681867692@ram> [e-mail] (Steven J. Kudlak) writes:
>>
>>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?)
>>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those
>>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting?

 If some kind soul would post directions to the spot in question I'd be happy
to check it out since I go through N.M. often and like to hike anyway.
I'm not interested in spending my money on UFO books so give me as much detail
as possible. I'll probably go through there within the next 3-4 months, definately
will during ski season. Do aliens ski?

 Oh oh, what about security? I'm a physicist who grew up in the streets of Detroit,
I'll find a way ;}



--
Marc Sabb                   INTERNET: [e-mail]
Optical Sciences Center     VOICE:(602)-621-4099
University of Arizona       Disclaimer:None
Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721  Not opinions,observations!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 04:27:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>But seriously folks, didn't the Betty/Barney Hill story precede
>_CEotTK_ by *several* years?  If memory serves me, the Hills claimed
>to have been abducted while on a vacation, driving through the
>Catskills.  They didn't recall the encounter immediately, although
>they were aware of "lost time."  Under hypnosis (separately), they
>both recounted essentially the same abduction story, greys and all.
>I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by
>astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar)
>perspective!
>
>OK, PLEASE don't tell me that the Hills were revealed as a hoax!
>
>I think the Hills' fun took place in the '60s, and I think that and
>other stories were the inspiration for _CEotTK_ and _ET_.  Take
>THAT, Spielberg!
>
>Eric P. [e-mail]...Metaphor and I have a
>mutual agreement;  I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me.

Betty and Barney Hill's abduction experience was included in the Stanton
Friedman video "UFO's are Real". Actually, Betty made a sketch of
the star system and that  was later expanded upon by Majorie Fish, who
correlated it to the Zeta Reticuli start system by some months of effort.

It still remains a interesting case, even though it was "ages ago".

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Suggested reading material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 91 01:58:22 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 344



Since people have been asking for suggested reading material lately,
I thought I would take the time to post a list of 15 books
that I have read and found to be useful. All of the books are
currently available in most bookstores and libraries.

Since I'm recommending books (remember, libraries are free) I should
mention my biases. Missing from my list are books on "New Age
Channeling" and "Debunking". I have built up a personal bias against
this kind of material over the years because I find it unfalsifiable,
dogmatic, and it just plain irritates me. Obviously I can't recommend
this kind of material. If someone else is into this stuff perhaps they
can post a few good books.

Also missing is some good old-fashioned skepticism (rather than
debunking). I have read a few books of this sort, but I don't *own*
any worth recommending and I don't have time to go to the library
for the purposes of this post. (My memory isn't good enough to just
"wing" it :^), maybe someone would be good enough to recommend a few
books of this sort as well.

I tried to be as objective as possible regarding the contents of the
books, but didn't take the time necessary to do it right. In other
words, consider ALL of it as opinion.

Leonard.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Above Top Secret - The World Wide UFO Cover Up"
1989; Timothy Good (647 pages)
   - chronological UFO case histories 1933 to 1988
   - information on government agencies involvement in UFOs
   - information from Great Britain, around the world, and the USA.

I found this book to be an excellent reference text. The cases are
extensive and well covered, but it does tend to be kind of dry
reading. The Bentwaters case (soon to be recreated for the season's
premiere of "Unsolved Mysteries") is covered here among many others.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Alien Liaison - The Ultimate Secret"
1991; Timothy Good (242 pages)
   - cases, mutilations, updates and recent material
   - project Aquarius, MJ-12
   - Dreamland, Groom Lake, Area-51, S-4, Robert Lazar
   - "Cosmic Journey": the joint Ringling Brothers and Barnum
     and Bailey International / NASA touring space exhibit that
     allegedly was to include a *real* captured saucer and
     frozen alien. It was cancelled (or delayed).
   - hints at an upcoming release of government information
     about UFOs.

This contains a lot of new material that I had not seen in other
books. It is less of a reference text than "Above Top Secret", and
is more entertaining. The material is more of a sensational nature,
but he names names and it appears to have been well researched.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The UFO Casebook"
1989; Kevin D. Randle (256 pages)
   - chronological UFO case histories 1947 to 1988
   - explanations of some classic cases that are still reported
     as "true" today but have long since been dismissed by
     researchers.


Not as extensive as "Above Top Secret", but perhaps it is laid out
a little better, and therefore easier to read. Both books together
are somewhat redundant, but a serious researcher might want to read
both to see how each author handles the same material.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"UFO Crash at Roswell"
1991; Kevin D. Randle & Donald R. Schmitt (327 pages)
   - updates the Roswell material with new information / witnesses
   - corrects mistakes in the Berlitz/Moore Roswell book
   - provides a time line of the events at Roswell
   - appendices, glossary, index etc..


I think that the authors have done a good job of researching the
Roswell crash. The material is well presented and backed up, but
the re-telling of the facts from 3 or 4 different perspectives does
get a bit monotonous. This book corrects some of the mistakes that
have been reported about Roswell in a number of other books and
provides a lot of new material.

The question of what "crashed" near Roswell is raised again and again
in UFO discussions, and it is nearly impossible to say anything about
Roswell without getting somebody upset. Personally, I can draw no firm
conclusions about the subject for many reasons, but I feel that in order
to discuss (or argue) about Roswell, you really should have read *this*
book.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Night Siege - The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings"
1987; Dr J. Allen Hynek, Philip J. Imbrogno, Bob Pratt (207 pages)
   - documents the Hudson Valley UFO wave from 1982 to 1986

The Hudson Valley sightings were quite impressive; multiple witnesses,
repeat appearances, and interesting objects (boomerang and many other
apparent shapes). The descriptions of the objects were very similar to
the ones seen in Belgium recently.

The book documents the sightings as well as the possible explanations
presented for them (e.g. ultralight aircraft, secret US planes, alien
space craft, etc..) and the problems associated with each possibility.
The book does not contain much sensational strangeness material,
apparently at the request of Dr. Hynek who thought it would lower
the credibility of the book and was outside the scope of the current
research, but the book hints that there was such things happening.
I think Whitley Strieber's cabin is in or near the Hudson Valley.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Gulf Breeze Sightings"
1990; Ed Walters & Frances Walters (368 pages)
   - the first-hand UFO experiences of Ed Walters
   - many pictures
   - MUFON investigation, photo-analysis, media reactions
   - hints that abductions may have taken place, but does not
     go into details (no hypnosis session material)

Ed Walters Gulf Breeze UFO experiences are another subject that seems
to get people upset when it is brought up. I have heard allegations
that he has been proven a fraud (in regards to the *UFO* material), but
I haven't *seen* any proof myself. If anyone has such proof I would
appreciate them posting it.

All I *really* know about Ed Walters is from *his* book. I found it to be
consistent, he seems to be honest in what he writes, and the photographic
evidence is abundant. In addition to his UFO experiences, he also writes
about the media, the reactions from the UFO community, and the "attacks"
from the debunkers. I thought it was worth reading, and I believe that
this there is a great deal of material that can't simply be written off.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Communion - A True Story"
1988; Whitley Strieber (306 pages)
   - the personal experiences of an abduction victim
   - a high strangeness case
   - hypnotic regression
   - personal theories as to the meaning of the experiences and
     as to who the "visitors" *may* be (and may not be)


"Transformation - The Breakthrough"
1989; Whitley Strieber (276 pages)
   - a continuation of Communion material
   - more high strangeness material
   - old material not released in Communion
   - new material that occurred after Communion's release
   - reactions to Communion from the media and UFO researchers,
   - results of medical/psychological tests and lie detector
     examinations
   - a continuation/new version of Strieber's personal theories


I found it refreshing to read personal abduction experiences written
by a *professional* writer who knows how to express himself and convey
the fear he felt to his audience. He is a professional writer of horror
material (e.g. "The Wolfen, "The Hunger") and is able to involve the
reader in a way that most UFO investigators can't do.

He swears that the events that he describes really happened to him
and that he presents them as he experienced them. He has taken lie
detector tests, had MRI scans, and undergone psychological examinations
but can offer no universally acceptable proof of what happened to him.

After reading his books I came out with the impression that Strieber
was telling the truth. I believe that he was not lying. *Something*
happened to him that was frightening and very strange. As far as what
that something was, I'm not sure. I don't necessarily agree with
Strieber's own *personal* theories which are close to Vallee's and
favour a not-necessarily-extraterrestrial cause.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Report on Communion - The Facts Behind the Most Controversial
   True Story of Our Time"
1990; Ed Conroy (424 pages)
   - analysis of Strieber, his career, childhood, and "visitor"
     experiences
   - "Communion" (the book and the movie) and "Transformation"
   - reactions from the media, other investigators, etc..
   - opinions about Strieber and his experiences from others in
     the field (e.g. P. Klass)
   - comparisons of Strieber's experiences and theories with the work of
     Jung, Vallee, and others


More material for those people who want more information on Strieber
and his experiences. I found it helpful in analyzing his books and
his motives.

There has been a lot of "Strieber bashing" on the net lately, and I
have seen allegations that he is "not what he seems". If anyone has
any proof of such allegations I would appreciate them posting it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Missing Time"
1981; Budd Hopkins (255 pages)
   - abduction case studies (investigated by Hopkins)
   - hypnotic regression
   - high strangeness, but more physical than meta-physical


"Intruders - The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods"
1987; Budd Hopkins (318 pages)
   - focuses primarily on the "Kathie Davis" case
   - lots of material recovered through hypnotic regression
   - a continuation of the "Missing Time" material
   - uncomfortable hypothesis


A must-read for the "little-grey-emotionless-buggers-who-want-to-use-
your-genetic-material-and-reproductive-abilities" hypothesis.

I have read a lot of attacks on Budd Hopkins's investigative technique,
and would agree with some of it, but I found the material in these
books to be well laid out and certainly interesting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dimensions - A Casebook of Alien Contact"
1988; Jacques Vallee (304 pages)
   - ancient to contemporary history of "UFOs" and "aliens"
   - cultural analysis of how alien imagery relates to ancient
     myths and legends
   - faeries, angels, demons, the gentry, gnomes, etc...
   - *non*-extraterrestrial possibilities
   - other dimensions, psychological, etc...


"Confrontations - A Scientist's Search for Alien Contact"
1990; Jacques Vallee (241 pages)
   - case studies
   - *lethal* encounters, Brazil, Chupas
   - investigative techniques, evidence analysis, a classification
     scheme
   - a condemnation for "other investigators" techniques such
     as hypnosis
   - a continuation of the material developed in "Dimensions" and
     other Vallee books.

Jacques Vallee is somewhat of an outcast in the extraterrestrial
hypothesis dominated UFO field, but his not-necessarily ET ideas
and back-to-basics investigative techniques are becoming more
popular lately. His ideas are somewhat strange, but people like
Whitely Strieber have expressed that they favour his ideas more
than the "standard" nuts 'n bolts UFO/abduction theories.

I liked his books and his attitude, and some aspects of his theories.
It was also nice to read a book by someone who takes a serious look
at material from *before* 1947.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Watchers - The Secret Design Behind UFO Abduction"
1990; Raymond E. Fowler (386 pages)
   - case study of Betty Luca (formally Betty Andreasson)
   - Betty's abduction experiences from 1973 to 1988 were previously
     "blocked" from hypnotic recall. They became "available" in
     the mid to late 80's and this book is the result.
   - recaps some of the material from "The Andreasson Affair" and
     "The Andreasson Affair - Phase 2" (by the same author) for the
     benefit of those not familiar with the Andreasson material.
   - "unfiltered" hypnotic regressions
   - results of Raymond E. Fowlers own hypnotic regression sessions
   - very high strangeness material


Betty (Andreasson) Luca's name pops up all over the place in UFO
literature. This book fills in some of the material from the past,
and presents new material. The hypnotic regression sessions were
largely uncensored by the author, and came out really weird. There
is a lot of stuff in this book that will stretch your credulity about
as far as it can go, but it is entertaining and thought provoking.

I found the part of the book where Fowler himself gets hypnotized
to explore his possible experiences to be a bit annoying but other
people might not share that feeling.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Encounters - A Psychologist Reveals Case Studies of Abductions
   by Extraterrestrials"
1989; Dr Edith Fiore, PH.D. (276 pages)
   - 13 case studies of abduction victims
   - hypnotic regression
   - do-it-yourself hypnotic regression, how to find out if you
     have been abducted
   - does NOT attempt to provide any evidence or pretend to be an
     investigative work (and could not be used as such)


I debated with myself whether or not to include this book in my list,
but since I have seen people discussing Dr. Fiore's books on the net
I will include it.

First of all, I recommend that you do NOT read this book unless you have
already read a fair amount of the other material. I consider it as
a good example of *bad* research (e.g. leading questions in hypnosis,
sensationalizing and exploiting victims.) Debunkers could have a field
day with this book. I feel that her suggestion that readers use a
mild form of self-hypnosis to see if they too are abduction victims
is horrendously dangerous and unethical. The "hypnosis" she suggests
is the "relaxation-and-yes/no-questions-with-a-pendulum" type which
is fairly safe but still could lead to problems.

To be fair to Dr Fiore, she states that her goal is not to provide
accurate, provable evidence, but rather to help her patients overcome
the problems that the repressed memories are causing them. To be unfair
to Dr. Fiore, I get the impression that she would attribute just about
any neurosis to extraterrestrial abduction. She has also written books
on spirit possession and reincarnation (which I have not read.)

I found the book was a useful reference for the "me-too", sensational,
exploitive techniques that I have heard people like Jacques Vallee
complain about. That is *my* opinion.

The actual case material is *interesting* however, and her chapter
titles are hilarious. My favorites are chapter 2: "They Put Something
in My Rectum" and chapter 17: "... The Evidence Can No Longer Be
Squelched".


------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Greeting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 19:16:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1808 alt.paranormal:2565 sci.skeptic:13883

[e-mail] writes:

>I will not be permitted to post from my old account but will hope to return
>on this or another computer in less than 15 days.

Since all life is One (actually 0.975, correcting for vibrational
frequency), why should it be surprising that John posts from Don's
account?  Are they the same person?  Is one channeling the other?  Who
cares, so long as the entertainment continues.

I'll leave you without this saying:
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  FILE: OH Krill part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Aug 91 04:05:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Max Pandaemonium) writes:
>
>In summary:  fullerene combinations can make superconductors, but they
>aren't at anywhere near room temperatures presently.  Newspapers and the
>general media tend to confuse scientific findings considerably . . .

Well, I said *attempting* to produce high-temperature superconductors.    I
just thought I'd throw the idea out as a response to the claim that someone
has data on the material flying saucers are made out of.

By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some
method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change
their properties.  Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell
hardness tester...  The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have
discovered such a process.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  FILE: OH Krill part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 91 06:30:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some
>method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change
>their properties.  Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell
>hardness tester...  The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have
>discovered such a process.

Of course, having a patent is not the same as having invented something
that works.

For instance, the Hieronymous machine has a patent (2,482,773).  (A
piece of plastic connected to a randomly-assembled bunch of electronic
junk feels sticky when the machine is pointed at anything you're looking
for.)

The Dean drive has a patent.  (2,886,976)  (It's a box containing a
solenoid that jerks up and down violently--the machine is supposed to
lift itself into the air.  Very clueless inventor there.)

One Socrates Schofield patented a pair of linked springs that ''prove''
the existence of God.  (1,087,186)

                    -- Kibo (not patented, but a
                    trademark)

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh Krill
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 18:48:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 27


 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 > Date: 15 Aug 91 03:29:39 GMT
 > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Don Allen recently posted something from the Fido UFO echo indicating
 > that
 > Bennewitz was still involved with the Dulce scenario and was still
 > saying
 > much the same thing as he did before his breakdown.  Do you know
 > anything
 > about this?  I had previously assumed that he wasn't involved in UFOlogy
 > any more.

Bennewitz is back in swing in a limited capacity.  As I understand, he is not
dealing with too many people, although he has been in contact with some,
including Linda Howe.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Communion Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 18:54:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 37


 > From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
 > Date: 13 Aug 91 02:28:22 GMT
 > Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > If you want a _better_ work to study abduction phenomena, I would
 > recommend Dr Edith Fiore's books on her case studies of abduction
 > victims. It would save you from all the BS of wading through Strieber's
 > "work". One of her better known books is called "Encounters" and is
 > a good book, in my opinion.


Permit me to jump in here Don...

Even Edith Fiore is stretching it a bit for abduction research.  I would also
recommend that interested parties make inquiry with CUFOS as to some of the
journals that they have posted on the abduction phenomenon.  Eddie Bullard has
some excellent articles on this.

Finally, I read the "Farewell Communion" crap.  What a load!  Strieber is
definitely not working for the interests of his followers in that article.  He
tells them that there is a time when the lamb must lay down with the lion and
surrender.  In my opinion, he is so much as telling them to submit to whatever
it is that wants them and to forget further questions or concerns.  A little
dangerous, I must say.  Anyway, perhaps the reason that he hates mainstream
UFOlogists so much is that exposure of Strieber's loyalty to whatever agency
abductions represent is too great.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 18:58:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 29


 > From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
 > Date: 16 Aug 91 16:06:17 GMT
 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Is there something in the story you object to, Mike?  I mean, is there
 > something that just doesn't fit and is just crazy?  Simply because
 > Strieber is able to vividly describe the occurances doesn't mean they
 > aren't real or are embellished.


Yes.  It is his insistence that it is true and to accept the experience for
what it is without further questioning it.  I just finished reading his
farewell message and I found it to be rather disturbing.  I am only advocating
that people not accept so much what he claims and to be a little more curious
about what Strieber is trying to get people to swallow.  For example, my
analogy of this is that if you are buying a car, you test drive it first.  The
same holds true for this phenomenon:  If you think you have experienced it,
first try to identify what the agenda is.  Don't accept it blindly.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 19:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 34


 > From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
 > Date: 16 Aug 91 23:12:15 GMT
 > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK
 > Message-ID: <_#X}[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > OK, I missed this the first time.  I apologise for dragging the `you
 > aren't
 > telling us anything' thread on.  I do, however, hold that your (exposed)
 > objections are not enough to convince us of the absolute truth that
 > Strieber is a crook (just as his books are not enough to convince us
 > that
 > it happened).  I hope you can see this point, but I'll respect the
 > confidence
 > of your sources, and let this facet of the discussion rest.


Thank you.  However, I must direct you to seek out a copy of Strieber's
farewell message in his newsletter.  It is copyrighted and I have not
considered contacting him for permission to reprint it.  I will say that it
makes for very interesting reading, and one can easily discern what his true
motives are for his actions.  It implies that he has given himself over to
whatever agency this represents and he suggests that the others do as well.
For someone who supposedly hates any type of political or philosophical
convictions, he is full of them.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Streiber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 19:07:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 21


 > From: [e-mail] (Jeff Beddow)
 > Date: 16 Aug 91 14:13:55 GMT
 > Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


Your review of Ruppelt and Vallee were excellent!  As an aside, I have access
to Ruppelt's original papers which he kept for the publishing of his book.
His writing was done with a great deal of restraint.  His notes indicate a
much more developed plot for the cover-up that is going on today.  In any
event, I find that anyone interested in UFOlogy should start with Ruppelt,
then Keyhoe, and Jacobs, to finish with Vallee.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Aug 91 19:10:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO
Lines: 26


 > From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
 > Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT
 > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 >     UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded
 > organization
 >     covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and
 > origin
 >     of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the
 > profits
 >     rolling in.

I have heard this theory before regarding the team that made up Project
Blue Book.  They kept the reports mysterious just to assure continued funding
for the project.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!ambra!thierry
From: [e-mail] (Thierry Robelin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid part 4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 91 08:28:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AmbraSoft A/S
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1818 alt.paranormal:2585 sci.skeptic:13911


Yes! I misunderstood feet square as square feet! Sorry! 8-(
You don't need to send me messages about it any more!
Thanks for the correction, though. :-)
Thierry

--
|####### |####### |######  |Thierry T. Robelin| "You must be dreaming."
   |#       |#    |#____|# |Ambrasoft A/S     |
   |#       |#    |#~~~|#  |Stroedamvej 50    |
   |#       |#    |#    |# |DK-2100 Copenhagen|             [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 91 08:42:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1819 sci.skeptic:13912 alt.paranormal:2586
X-Comment-To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Josh Vander Berg) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact.  If man was
>brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his
>genome with chimps?  Answer:  He EVOLVED from monkeys.  The reason they
>can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years
>ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays.  I
>suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here
>genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes.  Further and further
>into fantasy we tread....

Evolution is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific theory. He
comes with another theory. One is currently accepted, the other not,
but does that make it the truth?

There is no proof that humans EVOLVED from the monkeys. There are
genetic similarities, but monkeys could as well have evolved from
humans.

The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this
evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is
available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the
evolution theory.


--
-- Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!gisle
From: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARE YOU SIRIUS.?  (some questions)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 91 15:06:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Lines: 56
Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 21 Jul 91 20: 12:12 GMT
Originator: [e-mail]

> I remember a few years ago reading a pseudo-science book
> called "The Sirius Mystery" a few years ago , and being fascinated by
> the books premise..basically that the Dogon tribe in northwest Africa
> had a myth that they had been visited thousands of years ago by beings from
> the star Sirius, who told them , among other things, that they were
> from a double star and traveled in time..etc..
>
>    Struck me as fascinating at the time because the double star
> aspect of the Sirius system wasnt verified until recent (relatively)
> times...so thsi might actually indicate some contact...???
>
>  Anybody better informed than I who can shed some light on this subject..?

It has was discussed on some TV show (I think Carl Sagan's "Cosmos").

The argument presented was that a french anthropologist (his name and
the date was mentioned, but I don't recall) that had left Paris to
study the Dogons only a month after a major French scientific
journal had published a lot of new findings about Sirius (it being
a double star, etc.), and that the scenario went like this:

French Anthrpologist: "Hey, you people of Africa, I am a nosey
   anthropologist from the North, and I want to hear your tales."
Dogon Elder: "Hokey -- but we should trade tales.
   You tell the tales of your people, and we'll tell ours."
French Anthrpologist: "Hmmm... but I don't _know_ any good tales.
   Waitaminute --- let me find this old magaizine...
   Ahh,  you see that star up there?  Now listen! ..."

And the Dogons turned out to enjoy this particular tale so much that
they incorporated it into their mythology, which is what is reported
in "The Sirius Mystery".

What you believe is up to you, but personally I think Sagan's scenario
is much more plausible than the "ancien atronaut" one.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my
            employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

- gisle hannemyr  (Norwegian Computing Center)
  EAN:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         [e-mail]                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  [e-mail]
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------

--
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my
            employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

- gisle hannemyr  (Norwegian Computing Center)
  EAN:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         [e-mail]                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  [e-mail]
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!rblack
From: [e-mail] (Roger Black)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 91 01:40:15 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx sci.archaeology:509 sci.skeptic:13917 alt.alien.visitors:1821

The following posting recently appeared in the ParaNet UFO Echo on
FidoNet.  If the discovery described herein is true, it could have
tremendous significance to a number of disciplines, including both
Archaeology and Ufology.  If false, it could represent the start of
another "alien artifact" legend.

If anyone can clarify this, refute it, or add further information about
it, please do so.

* Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
* Originally dated 1 May 1991, 4:04
+ Originally from the KeelyNet BBS
+ Cross-posted by Clark Matthews

Message 616                                    DATE/TIME: 08/18/91 09:32
From   : JERRY DECKER (SYSOP)
To     : ALL
Subject: Mysterious Object
Folder : A, "Public Mail"

Hello everyone.  We have just heard about an object found approximately
640 feet under the earth while excavating for room to store radioactive
waste.  The object is from 25 to 40 feet in height and there are
apparently 9 of them in a row on a north-south line.  There are photos
of it which I have yet to see, but OMNI and several other news services
are doing their damndest to get the photos and/or more info.  The site
is around Ogden, UTAH, so if anyone there knows about such an
excavation, please give us the details.  The Ogden newspaper has not
knowledge of such activity or such a discovery.  When we get the
photos, we will digitize them for those interested.  I'll probably get
in trouble for mentioning even this little bit of data but we would
really like info if you know anything.  The object has gears and
appears to be a machine or a part of one.  One guy says it looked like
a gimbal to him though I have yet to see it to confirm.  The story
and photos comes from a scientist working with the Super-Collider
through a mutual friend.  That scientist was flown out to the site to
see what he thought the thing was.  It is made of an unknown metal or
alloy and cannot be welded or cut.  We question how they could take
such an enormouse object from 640 feet down to the surface since it
must weigh many tons.  There is speculation that since it is such an
unknown metal, it might be lightweight like some of the fragments from
crashed UFOs are supposed to be.  Guess I'm in hot water now but you
guys might furnish more detailed info....I will try to get the
pictures so everyone can see it.....Jerry
===============================================================================
* Origin: The Wrong Number BBS - ParaNet<sm> Pi  [phone] 24hrs.
  (1:107/ 816)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Roger Black                                    [e-mail]
 Disclaimer:                My employer doesn't even know I have any opinions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!att!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 91 08:27:02 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1822 sci.skeptic:13927

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

>The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this
>evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is
>available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the
>evolution theory.

Anti-evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but they are never
able to present any evidence which survives serious scrutiny.  What
evidence do you have, Mr Lindqvist?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!ucsd!nosc!rigel!wolfgang
From: [e-mail] (Lewis E. Wolfgang)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 91 18:32:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1823 sci.skeptic:13949 alt.paranormal:2610

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this
>evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is
>available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the
>evolution theory.
>
>Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332

Would you be so kind as to cite which evidence does not fit?  One
of the hallmarks of the scientific method is that hyphotheses (and
theories) must be altered in the face of contradictory information.

                    Thanks,
                    Lewie
                    [e-mail]
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 ukma!memstvx1!utkcs2!emory!samsung!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!beddow
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Beddow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: APRO contact
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 91 21:39:35 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 9

Distribution:world

Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO?

They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a

few years ago and I wonder what happened to it.

-Jeff
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 02:16:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

so, if anyone had seen a grey or any of the OTHER types, do you think they
would subject themselves to the examinations here, which almost rival those
on the ships??? :)


--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 91 03:55:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human-
>like form?  (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.)  And oxygen-breathing to boot?  Why
>can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even?
>Does this make sense to anybody?

Assuming that they *are* corporeal, and that they can't, for example,
teleport psychically, they've got to develop into some form which can use
tools or else they wouldn't be able to come to Earth.  Nothing says
*intelligent* life must be humanoid, but *technological* civilizations
aren't going to be made of jellyfish no matter how intelligent.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 91 04:03:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1827 alt.conspiracy:6685

Although you can say the O. H. Krill file is a fraud if it's intended to be
a genuine alien- or government-authored document, I feel that it's
important to realize that it contains many quotes from other sources, and
therefore might still be useful *if the sources can be verified as
reliable*.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Aug 91 04:10:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes:
>
>Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie
>CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND.
>
>Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm?

I'm sure there were abductions prior to CETK.  They just weren't getting
as much attention, especially from non-ufologists, as today.  In fact, I've
heard that the aliens in CETK were based on abduction accounts.  (I've also
heard that some of the spacecraft were based on the Bentwaters case, which
incidentally is going to be the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries"
complete with effects by ILM.)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  FILE: OH Krill part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Aug 91 14:08:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
> By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some
> method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change
> their properties.  Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell
> hardness tester...  The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have
> discovered such a process.

Well, wouldn't it be peachy if they could let those of us in the Materials
Science world know of the methods. I am sitting 10 feet from a Rockwell
Hardness Tester ...


Ian
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: Astronomical Society Survey on UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:25:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 163
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1830 alt.conspiracy:6695




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



                  REPORT ON A SURVEY OF THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE
          AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY CONCERNING THE UFO PHENOMENON

                                    SUMMARY


    Referred   journals,  to  which  scientists  turn  for  their  reliable
    information, carry virtually no information on the UFO  problem.   Does
    this  imply  that  scientists  have  no  views  and  no thoughts on the
    subject, or that all scientists  consider  it  insignificant?  Does  it
    imply  that  scientists  have  no reports to submit comparable with UFO
    reports published in newspapers and popular books? The purpose of  this
    survey is to answer these questions.

    Of  2,611 questionnaires mailed to members of the American Astronomical
    Society, 1,356 were returned, 34 anonymously. Only two members  offered
    to  waive anonymity. These facts and many comments confirm that the UFO
    problem is a sensitive issue for most scientists. Nevertheless, only  a
    few  (13)  respondents  made  critical remarks about the subject or the
    survey; 50 made encouraging statements,  34  offered  to  help,  and  7
    indicated that they are actively studying the problem.

    Each  respondent  was  asked  to  state  his opinion on whether the UFO
    problem  deserves  scientific  study:  23%  replied  "certainly",   30%
    "probably", 27% "possibly", 17% "probably not", and 3% "certainly not",
    which  represents  a positive attitude among 53% of the respondents, as
    against a negative attitude among 20%. Analysis of  the  returns  shows
    that  older  scientists  are markedly more negative to the problem than
    are younger scientists. One also finds that opinions correlate strongly
    with time spent reading about the subject. The fraction of  respondents
    who  think  that  the subject certainly or probably deserves scientific
    study rises from 29%, among those who have spent less than one hour, to
    68% among those who have spent more than 365 hours in such reading.  It
    appears  that  popular books and publications by established scientists
    exert a positive influence on scientists' opinions,  whereas  newspaper
    and magazine articles exert negligible influence.

    Respondents were asked to express their views on possible causes of UFO
    reports  by  assigning  "prior  probabilities"  to  four "conventional"
    causes [(a) a hoax,  (b)  a  familiar  phenomenon  or  device,  (c)  an
    unfamiliar  natural  phenomenon,  and  (d)  an  unfamiliar  terrestrial
    device] and  four  "unconventional"  causes  [(e)  an  unknown  natural
    phenomenon,  (f) an alien device, (g) some specifiable other cause, and
    (h) some unspecifiable other cause]. There was a very  wide  spread  of
    opinions  on  this  issue.  Averaging all returns gives the values: (a)
    .12, (b) .22, (c) .23, (d) .21, (e) .09, (f) .03, (g) .07. This average
    response is  therefore  quite  open-minded,  although  many  individual
    responses  are  not.  Older  people  tend  to give more credence to the
    possibility of a hoax and  less  to  unconventional  possibilities.  By
    contrast,  those  who  have studied the subject extensively attach less
    weight to  the  possibility  of  a  hoax  and  greater  weight  to  the
    unconventional possibilities.

    Over  80%  of  respondents expressed a willingness to contribute to the
    resolution of the UFO problem if they could see a way to do so but,  of
    those  expressing  this  interest, only 13% could see a way.  This is a
    notable consensus which may encapsulate the dilemma which this  problem
    presents  to  scientists.  Those  who have studied the subject are more
    willing to help and more likely to see a way to help.

    Most    respondents    consider    that    meteorology,     psychology,
    astronomy/astrophysics  and  physics  have relevance to the UFO problem
    and some consider that aeronautical engineering and sociology may  also
    be  relevant.   Most  respondents  (75%)  would  like  to  obtain  more
    information on the subject, but they express a  strong  preference  for
    getting it from scientific journals rather than from books or lectures.

    The  returns identified 62 respondents who had witnessed or obtained an
    instrumental record of an event which they could not identify and which
    they thought might be related to the UFO phenomenon. The  total  number
    of events reported was larger (65) since some respondents reported more
    than one event. In addition, ten _identified_ strange observations were
    mentioned,  four  investigations were described (including one detailed
    study of ground traces), and attention  was  drawn  to  a  few  strange
    events  described in the scientific literature. It was found that these
    62 respondents have spent longer than average studying the UFO problem,
    that they are more positive  in  their  assessment  of  the  scientific
    importance  of  the  problem, and that they tend to be more open-minded
    about unconventional  explanations.   Only  18  (about  30%)  of  these
    respondents   indicated   that   they  had  previously  reported  their
    observations; seven to the Air Force, Navy or NORAD, one to the police,
    two to airport authorities, seven to other scientists,  and  one  to  a
    newspaper.

    Sixty-three  percent  (63%)  of  those  reporting events were night-sky
    observers, as against 50% of respondents who  did  not  report  events.
    Thirty-six  (36)  of  the  events  comprised  lights seen in the sky at
    night.  Twelve (12) were of  point  lights  which  were  more  or  less
    puzzling;  four  (4) were of formations of lights; and four (4) were of
    diffuse lights. Three respondents independently described what appeared
    to be a searchlight playing on a cloud when there were no clouds in the
    sky.  Four described disk-like objects, and five described objects with
    different shapes. Three cases concerned objects which appeared to  emit
    smaller  objects  or "sparks." One case described apparent interference
    with an automobile electrical system (as did also a daylight case).

    There were sixteen accounts of strange objects seen by day.  Five  were
    of small objects, seven were of disk-shaped objects, and four described
    other miscellaneous observations.

    Seven  respondents described photographic records of strange phenomena,
    and three were kind enough to provide me with copies of the photographs
    or film. (With help, I was able to make  plausible  interpretations  of
    two of these.) One respondent recalled a radar observation he had made,
    another  described  two  strange  radio  records, and a third described
    puzzling records obtained by a satellite tracking station.

    This study leads to the following answers to  the  questions  initially
    posed.   To  judge  from  this survey of the membership of the American
    Astronomical Society, it appears that:

    (a) scientists have thoughts and views but no  answers  concerning  the
    UFO problem;

    (b)  Although there is no consensus, more scientists are of the opinion
    that the problem certainly or probably deserves scientific  study  than
    are of the opinion that it certainly or probably does not;

    and  (c) a small fraction (of order 5%) are likely to report varied and
    puzzling observations, not unlike so-called "UFO reports" made  by  the
    general  public.  As is the case with reports from the public, many may
    be unusual observations of  familiar  objects,  but  some  seem  to  be
    definitely strange.

    These  results  are consistent with the findings of an earlier but more
    limited survey of members of the American Institute of Aeronautics  and
    Astronautics (Sturrock, 1974b), except that the opinions of astronomers
    (expressed in 1975) concerning the significance of the UFO problem were
    more  positive than were the views of aeronautical engineers (expressed
    in 1973).

EOF

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SOURCES: Aztec Book service - UFO Books/publications
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:35:12 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1039
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1831 alt.conspiracy:6696


I'm posting this rather long (over 20k) listing of a book service
that in my opinion, is an _excellent_ source for hard-to find
and out-of-print publications on UFO books.

Please note: This posting is for informational purposes only. I have
NO affiliation with the Aztec Book service in any way whatsoever. This
is being posted because of the many requests I receive in email and observe
on the net of "Where can I get these books"? and "Will someone please post
a list of these books"? type questions.

---------Begin Book listing ---------------------------------------------



Catalog 1190





   @@@      @@@@@@@  @@@@@@@@   @@@@@@@      @@@@@@
 @@   @@         @@     @@      @@         @@      @@    ENTERPRISES
@@     @@       @@      @@      @@@@@     @@             PO BOX 668
@@ @@@ @@     @@        @@      @@        @@             BUSHKILL, PA
@@     @@    @@         @@      @@         @@      @@    18324
@@     @@   @@@@@@@     @@      @@@@@@@      @@@@@@






                   AZTEC BOOK SERVICE
                   Catalog 1190
                   Curator: Paul Faeder


ITEM    PRICE
NO.

CW10-1  $14.45  UFO CONTACT FROM ALIENS IN STARSHIPS
                Dibitanto-Sherwood.

                Human beings who come from a part of Venus
                not observable to us. 160 pages.


CW10-2  $14.45  UFO...GEORGE ADAMSKY, THEIR MAN ON EARTH
                Lou Zinsstag.

                The life and work of UFO contactee George
                Adamsky as known by the author. 160 pages.


CW10-3  $18.45  UFO CRASH AT AZTEC
                Steinman-Stevens.

                A report on the investigation of the crash of an
                alien spacecraft with 16 EBE bodies on-board.
                Recovered by U.S. gov't officials. 626 pages.


CW10-4  $16.45  UFO PHOTOGRAPHS AROUND THE WORLD VOL.II
                Stevens-Roberts.

                UFO photos around the world including the details
                of the photographic events. 138 actual UFO
                photos, 250 pages.


CW10-5  $14.45  UFO PHOTOGRAPHS AROUND THE WORLD VOL.I
                Stevens-Roberts.

                250 pages, 130 photos.


CW10-6  $16.45  UFO CONTACT FROM RETICULUM
                Stevens-Herrmann.

                A report on the sightings, photos and first
                abductions of William J. Herrmann of Charleston,
                S. Carolina in a continuing series of UFO
                contact from 1978 to 1981. 416 pages.


CW10-7  $18.45  UFO CONTACT FROM RETICULUM UPDATE
                Stevens.
                444 pages.


CW10-8  $29.00  UFO CONTACT FROM THE PLEIADES, A SUPPLEMENTARY
                INVESTIGATION REPORT.
                Stevens.

                A follow-up report on the contacts by the
                Pleiadians and Eduard "Billy" Meier.
                553 pages, 100 photos.


CW10-9  $9.95  1991 CALENDAR.
               Contains 13 UFO photos, lasar-scanned and
               enlarged to 9" x 11".


RI06-1  $16.00  UNIVITED GUESTS
                Richard Hall.
                Overview of the UFO phenomenon by the former
                director of NICAP. 384 pages, AUTOGRAPHED

RI06-2  $23.95  THE GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS
                Ed and Frances Walters.
                Recent and very controversial UFO sightings.
                480 pages, 70 color photos, AUTOGRAPHED.

RI06-3  $12.00  ANALYSIS OF THE GULF BREEZE VIDEOTAPE
                Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.
                A technical discussion of the investigation of
                the UFO video by Ed Walters.
                50 pages, illustrated.


RI06-4  $28.00  A HISTORY OF THE GULF BREEZE FLORIDA SIGHTINGS
                Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.
                Summary of the sightings and photographs of the
                recent Gulf Breeze events.
                125 pages, illustrated.


RI06-5  $16.00  THE BLUE BOOK UNKNOWNS
                Don Berliner
                Catalog of 585 admittedly unexplained cases from
                the Project Blue Book files. 85% include
                witnesses names subsequently censored.
                65 pages.


RI06-6  $12.00  THE FANTASTIC FLIGHT OF JAL 1628
                Bruce Macabee, Ph.D.
                Complete report on the Japan Air Lines sighting
                of 11/17/1986.
                52 pages, illustrated.


RI06-7  $16.00  THE MUNDRABILLA INCIDENT
                Keith Basterfield
                Report of the investigation of the January 20,
                1988 Australian case.
                70 pages, illustrated.

RI06-8  $58.00  UFOs of 1896-97: THE AIRSHIP WAVE
                Robert G. Neely Jr.

                Wave of UFO sightings between 1896-97.
                324 pages.


RI06-9  $86.00  THE 1912-1913 BRITISH PHANTOM AIRSHIP SCARE
                Nigel Watson, etal

                A compilation of more than 300 sighting reports.
                509 pages, illustrated.


RI06-10  $112.00  UFO ABDUCTIONS: THE MEASURE OF MYSTERY
                  Thomas E. Bullard, Ph.D.

                  Description and analysis of 270 cases.
                  673 pages, illustrated.


RI06-11  $11.00  FINAL REPORT ON THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING
                 OF UFO ABDUCTEES.
                 Ted Bloecher, Aphrodite Clamar, Budd Hopkins

                 The first scientific testing of 9 individuals
                 who recall being abducted by UFOnauts.
                 44 pages.


RI06-12  $6.60   THE ISOLATION SYNDROME
                 Willy Smith

                 A detailed examination of one aspect of many
                 close encounter cases, the "lonely road
                 syndrome".
                 18 pages, illustrated.


RI06-13  $95.00  DECLASSIFIED UFO/GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS

                 Significant documents from the files of
                 the U.S. and Canadian governments.
                 Approximately 600 pages.


RI06-14  $16.00  DOCUMENTS AND SUPPORTING INFORMATION RELATED
                 TO CRASHED FLYING SAUCERS AND OPERATION
                 MAJESTIC TWELVE.
                 Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.

                 Contains the startling MJ-12 document.
                 64 pages.


RI06-15  $12.50  THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF UNIDENTIFIED
                 FLYING OBJECTS
                 Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.

                 The most complete investigation of Project
                 Blue Book Special Report #14.
                 51 pages, illustrated.


RI06-16  $15.00  UFO LANDING NEAR KIRTLAND AFB (OR WELCOME TO
                 THE COSMIC WATERGATE)
                 Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.

                 An analysis of the officially documented landing
                 of a UFO on a sensitive military base.
                 30 pages.


RI06-17  $15.00  SENATOR RICHARD RUSSELL: FLYING SAUCER WITNESS
                 Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.

                 Government documents related to the sighting of
                 a UFO by the Chairman of the Armed Services
                 Committee in 1955.
                 65 pages, illustrated.


NX07-07  $9.00  THE EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND THEIR REALITY
                John H. Andrews

                Who are the Et's? Where do they come from? Why
                are they here and what are thier plans?  This
                book has the answers.


PY66-12  $17.45  ORGONE ENERGY - THE ANSWER TO ATOMIC SUICIDE
                 Jerome Eden


PY66-13  $19.45  PLANET IN TROUBLE - THE UFO ASSUALT ON EARTH
                 Jerome Eden

                 This book describes Wilhelm Reich's crucial
                 research into the UFO phenomenon and his
                 frightening conclusions.


PY66-14  $19.45  SCAVENGERS FROM SPACE
                 Jerome Eden

                 The result of nearly three decades of research
                 in UFO's.  Provides dramatic evidence of the
                 hostile intentions of many UFO's towards Earth.


PY66-15  $14.45  VIEW FROM EDEN - TALKS WITH STUDENTS OF ORGONOMY
                 Jerome Eden

                 A valuable assessment of the Life Energy and how
                 it functions in man and his planet, with prac-
                 tical insights into the work of Wilhelm Reich.


PY66-16  $5.50  TESTAMENT OF FOOLS
                Jerome Eden

                An indictment of the "UFO Cult of Magicians"
                which has evaded or covered-up the UFO threat
                to our planet.


PY66-17  $3.50  THE ORAC
                Jerome Eden

                An introduction to the Orgone Energy Accumulator.
                Basic details with diagrams and references on
                building simple experimental accumulators.


PY66-18  $5.50  UFO WITNESS - TESTIMONY OF DR. JAMES MCDONALD

                Testimony of the renowned physicist, the late
                Dr. James McDonald who investigated scores of
                UFO sightings, analyzed them and testified
                before a special committee of the U.S. Congress
                in 1968.


PY66-19  $11.50  EARTH ON TRIAL - THE WILHELM REICH COURT CASE

                 This volume contains the U.S. Government
                 injunction which succeeded in the banning and
                 burning of all of Dr. Reich's published books
                 in the United States!


SQ54-44  $10.50  CONDENSED INTRO TO TESLA TRANSFORMERS
                 Eric P. Dollard

                 An abstract of the theory and construction
                 techniques of Tesla Transformers.
                 70 pages, staples.



SQ54-45  $7.45  DIELECTRIC & MAGNETIC DISCHARGES IN ELECTRICAL
                WINDINGS
                Eric P. Dollard

                The theory of abrupt electrical oscillations such
                as those used by Tesla for experimental research.
                Contains ELECTRICAL OSCILLATIONS IN ANTENNAE &
                INDUCTION COILS by John Miller, 1919, one of the
                few articles containing equations useful to the
                design of Tesla coils. 38 pages, staples.


SQ54-46  $12.45  SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION OF THE GENERALIZED
                 ELECTRIC WAVE
                 Eric P. Dollard

                 Extension of the theory of versor operators and
                 imaginary numbers to represent complec oscill-
                 ating waves.  Waves flowing backwards in time
                 are explored. 86 pages, staples.


SQ54-47  $10.25  THEORY OF WIRELESS POWER
                 Eric P. Dollard

                 Tesla demonstrated wireless power but never re-
                 vealed the secret.  Based on real work with a
                 Tesla Magnifying Transmitter. Illustrated with
                 charts and diagrams. 69 pages, stapled.


SQ54-48  $4.50  MAGNETIC CURRENT
                Edward Leedskalnin

                The rare manuscript of the builder of the Coral
                Castle. Along with presenting his most curious
                viewpoint on the fluid, flowing force of Mag-
                netism, Leedskalnin gives the reader various
                experiments to try in order to understand the
                incredible forces he tapped to build his enig-
                matic structure.


SQ54-49  $7.00  TWO INVENTORS RETURN and PROJECT HERMES
                Gilbert Wright

                Part 1 is by General Electric engineer Glibert
                Wright on his psychic contacts with Steinmetz
                and Edison. Part 2 in on Project Hermes, an
                electronic device for stimulating the telepathic
                transmitting and receiving centers within the
                brain, instructions for building it, diagram and
                discussion of possible effects on the user.
                Includes schematic for the Hidden World receiver
                from the Shaver mystery. 42 pages, stapled.


SQ54-50  $15.45  THE CRYSTAL BOOK
                 Alison Davidson

                 Contents include: The Therapeutic Powers of
                 Quartz, Crystals and Electricity, Crystal
                 Force, Crystals and Cancer, Lithium - The
                 Ultimate Compound. 92 pages, stapled.



SQ54-51  $11.45  THE COMING OF THE GUARDIANS
                 Meade Layne

                 A historical re-issue of a classic from the
                 early years about the "Guardians" of the planet
                 and their patrol ships received through Rolf
                 Telano; Communications from the Mark Probert
                 "Inner Circle" giving the first intelligent
                 data on UFOs starting in 1946. Includes a chart
                 of the Etheric Zones around the Earth from which
                 UFOs materialize. 76 pages, stapled.


SQ54-52  $6.45  FLYING SAUCERS ON THE MOON
                Riley Hansard Crabb

                Ever wonder why we stopped going to the moon?
                An analysis of 200 years of astronomical
                observations, with charts of strange lights
                backs-up this author's premise that the moon
                is inhabited and serves as a Flying Saucer base.
                41 pages, stapled.

SQ54-53  $5.50  THE REALITY OF THE UNDERGROUND CAVERN WORLD
                Riley Hansard Crabb

                Whether solid or hollow, there are cavern net-
                works throughout much of the Earth's outer shell.
                This paper is an analysis of the Inner Earth and
                it's denizens including the origin of the Legends
                of the Serpent Race; The Shaver Mystery and the
                Deros; Human Dwarves and Giants; and a Guided
                Tour of the Earth's Interior. 33 pages, stapled.


SQ54-54  $7.00  FLYING SAUCERS AT EDWARDS AFB, 1954

                A compilation of documents about a secret landing
                of a UFO at Edwards AFB and the meeting of top
                officials with aliens. 44 pages, stapled.


SQ54-55  $7.45  M.K. JESSUP & THE ALLENDE LETTERS
                The Philadelphia Experiment File

                Includes copies of Carlos Allende's letters
                to Jessup about a disappearing Navy destroyer
                and crew in the fall of 1943-44 with a descrip-
                tion of the disatrous effects of a powerful
                anti-gravity field on the men involved.
                51 pages, stapled.


LP44-90  $11.95  THE PRISM OF LYRA - An Exploration of Human
                 Galactic Heritage
                 Lyssa Royal and Keith Priest

                 Traces various developing off-planet races
                 through their own evolution and ties them into
                 the developing Earth.


LP44-91  $67.50  EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND EARTH (Cassette tape)

                 Channeled from Lyssa Royal, this set contains:
                 The Arcturus Connection, The Sirius Connection,
                 Pleidian Ancestry, The Orion Conflict, History
                 of the Zeta Reticuli, Earth Inception, + more.
                 A total of 9 seperate channelings.



********* REPRODUCTIONS OF OLD OR OUT-OF-PRINT BOOKS ***********



LB32-11  $7.95  ALCHEMY REDISCOVERD AND RESTORED
                A. Cochran
                158 pages. Offset facsimile.


LB32-12  $7.95  ATLANTIS & LEMURIA
                Dr. Rudolf Steiner (1923)
                131 pages, facsimile


LB32-13  $15.95  THE BOOK OF THE DEAD (Eqyptian literature)
                 E.A. Wallis Budge
                 398 pages, facsimile, spirals


LB32-14  $7.95  CRYSTAL GAZING - It's History and Practice
                Dr. Northcote W. Thomas
                162 pages, facsimile, spirals



LB32-15  $7.95  FLYING SAUCERS FROM THE EARTH'S INTERIOR
                Dr. Raymond W. Bernard
                89 pages, mimeographed


LB32-16  $8.50  THE GREAT PYRAMID OF EGYPT
                S.H. Ford DD, MD (1882)
                208 pages, facsimile, spirals


LB32-17  $14.50  THE GREAT PYRAMID IN FACT AND IN THEORY
                 W. Kingsland (1932)
                 125 pages, facsimile, spirals


LB32-18  $14.00  THE GREATER KEY OF SOLOMON
                 L.W. DeLaurence (1914)
                 128 pages


LB32-19  $12.50  THE HISTORY OF ATLANTIS
                 Lewis Spence
                 236 pages, facsimile


LB32-20  $12.50  THE HOLLOW EARTH
                 Dr. Raymond W. Bernard
                 105 pages, mimeographed.


LB32-21  $5.50  HOW TO COMBAT PSYCHIC ATTACK
                E. Nassau (1957)
                39 pages, facsimile


LB32-22  $6.50  HOW TO DEVELOP PSYCHIC POWERS
                Rev. Franklin A. Thomas (1922)
                98 pages


LB31-23  $6.50  MEN IN BLACK (MIB) ALIENS AMONG US
                Timothy Beckley
                Facsimile


LB32-24  $85.00  NIKOLA TESLA - LECTURES, PATENTS & ARTICLES
                 Nikola Tesla Museum, Beograd, Yugoslavia (1956)
                 1856 - 1943. 850 pages, facsimile, 2 Volumes.


LB32-25  $15.50  THE ROSICRUCIANS (Their Rites & Mysteries)
                 Hargrave  Jennings (1887 copyright)
                 478 pages, facsimile.


LB32-26  $12.50  SACRED MYSTERIES AMONG THE MAYAS AND QUICHES
                 Augustus LePlongeon (1909)
                 163 pages, facsimile, spirals


LB32-27  $9.50  THE SAUCERS SPEAK!
                George Hunt Williamson
                127 pages, spirals


LB32-28  $14.50  THE SHAVER MYSTERY AND THE INNER EARTH
                 Timothy Green Beckley
                 95 pages, facsimile


LB32-29  $10.50  THE SUPPRESSED TRUTH ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION
                 OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN
                 Burke McCarthy (1922).
                 272 pages, spirals


LB32-30  $18.00  UNIFIED FIELD THEORY
                 J.G. Gallimore
                 approx. 100 pages.


LB32-31  $7.50  WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT UFOS
                J. Allen Hynek
                7 pages, photocopied.



***************   V I D E O / A U D I O  T A P E S  *************

 Taped at the 26th annual UFO conference held in Phoenix
 Arizona September 1989.


WS78-101  Dianne Tessman ..... Message from the Stars
WS78-102  Martin Cannon ...... Implants and the CIA
WS78-103  Jim Mosely ......... Conspiracies
WS78-104  Al Benz ............ Cloak and Dagger - The CIA
WS78-105  Pat Diegel ......... Are You From Another Planet
WS78-106  Joshua Shapiro ..... The Mysteries of the Crystal Skull
WS78-107  Brad/Sherry Steiger  4,000 Years of the Other
WS78-108  Antonio Hueenes .... UFOs in South America
WS78-109  Jenny Randall ...... British Perspective on UFOs
WS78-110  Wesley Bateman ..... UFOs and Spirituality
WS78-111  Hal Starr .......... UFO Investigations (The seamy side
                               of the movement)
WS78-112  Rich Sauder ........ Personal Contact and Testimony
WS78-113  Press Panel #1
WS78-114  Press Panel #2
WS78-115  Al Bielick ....... Philadelphia Experiment (eyewitness)

AUDIO TAPES                      VIDEO TAPES
Single Tape ......... $ 8.75     Single Tape ......... $ 29.95
Any Three ........... $22.75     Any Three ........... $ 68.95
Any Five ............ $27.95     Any Five ............ $ 99.95
Entire Conference ... $89.95     Entire Conference ... $325.00



*******************  U S E D  B O O K S  ************************

               P = Paper back  H = Hard cover


UM1-1  $2.00     Bermuda Triangle, The
                 Berlitz, Charles
                 Avon 1974 252 pages  P
                 With photos, map and charts. This is the special
                 movie edition.

UM1-2  $2.00     Incident at Exeter
                 Fuller, John G.
                 Putnam 1966 221 pages
                 Very interesting account of a rash of UFO sight-
                 ings in Exeter New Hampshire in 1965.

UM1-3  $2.00     Bermuda Triangle, The
                 Jeffrey, Adi-Kent Thomas
                 Warner 1973 189 pages
                 16 pages of photographs and a fold out map
                 of the Bermuda Triangle.

UM1-4  $2.25     Late Great Planet Earth, The
                 Lindsey, Hal
                 Bantam 1970 177 pages P
                 An easy-to-read book about bible prophecy.

UM1-5  $2.00     Great Lakes Triangle, The
                 Gourley, Jay
                 Fawcett 1977 187 pages P
                 Well researched book about a Bermuda-like
                 triangle in the Great Lakes.

UM1-6  $2.00     Bermuda Triangle, The
                 Berlitz, Charles
                 Avon 1974 252 pages P

UM1-7  $2.00     U237 in the Devil's Triangle
                 Jones III, John M.
                 Neptune 1975 106 pages P
                 This is a first edition book combining fiction and
                 non-fiction about the Bermuda Triangle.

UM1-8  $4.50     Mirror For Witches, A
                 Forbes, Esther
                 Academy Chicago (Cassandra edition)
                 1928 214 pages P
                 'It is a remarkable piece of work, a thing of
                 beauty in itself...' Chicago Tribune

UM1-9  $7.50     Light Years
                 Kinder, Gary
                 Atlantic Monthly Press
                 1987 213 pages H
                 About Billy Meier's many UFO encounters. The COLOR
                 UFO photos alone make this a good value.

UM1-10  $2.00    Gods and Spacemen in the Ancient West
                 Drake, Raymond W.
                 Signet 1974 230 pages P
                 Lemuria, Atlantis, Aztec, Mayan Incas.

UM1-11  $2.50    Beyond Earth: Man's Contact With UFOs
                 Blum, Ralph
                 Bantam 1974 248 pages P
                 32 pages of illustrations makes this a great buy.

UM1-12  $5.40    Witchcraft In Britain
                 Hole, Christina
                 Paladin 1977 203 pages P
                 A history of british witchcraft

UM1-13  $6.50    Miracles of the Gods
                 Von Daniken
                 Delacorte Press 1974 228 pages H
                 Sequel to Chariots of the Gods.

UM1-14  $7.50    I Ching, The
                 Translated by James Legge
                 Dover 448 pages P
                 'The book of changes'. The sacred books of China.

UM1-15  $4.75    Close Encounters of the Third Kind
                 Spielberg, Steven
                 Delacorte Press 1977 215 pages H

UM1-16 $1.75     Chariots of the Gods
                 Von Daniken, Erich
                 Bantam 1968 163 pages P
                 Illustrated.

UM1-17 $2.00     Search for the Girl with the Blue Eyes, The
                 Stearn, Jess
                 Bantam 1968 244 pages P
                 Joanne MacIver remembers her life as Susan Ganier
                 over a century earlier.

UM1-18  $2.00    Late Great Planet Earth, The
                 Lindsey, Hal
                 Bantam 1970 180 pages P

UM1-19  $3.50    Children of MU, The
                 Churchward, James
                 Paperback Library 1931 223 pages P
                 'The strange, true story of the pioneers of MU - a
                 super-civilization that disappeared' El Paso Times

UM1-20  $2.25    World of the paranormal, The
                 McGraw, Walter
                 Pyramid 1969 205 pages P
                 ESP, telepathy, ghosts.

UM1-21  $3.50    Atlantis The Eighth Continent
                 Berlitz, Charles
                 Fawcett 1984 243 pages P
                 Illustrations.

UM1-22  $1.75    Gold of the Gods, The
                 Von Daniken, Erich
                 Bantam 1972 235 pages P

UM1-23  $6.75    Window To The Past: Exploring History Through ESP
                 Holzer, Hans
                 Doubleday 1969 254 pages H

UM1-24  $8.50    We Don't Die
                 Martin, Joel & Romanowski, Patricia
                 Putnam 1988 302 pages H
                 About George Anderson who receives messages from
                 'the other side'.

UM1-25  $8.50    Return, The
                 Evans, Mike
                 Nelson 1986 236 pages H
                 A mosaic of prophecy and modern day fulfillment

UM1-26  $5.25    Bermuda Triangle, The
                 Berlitz, Charles
                 Doubleday  1974 199 pages H

UM1-27  $2.75    12th Planet, The
                 Sitchin, Zecharia
                 Avon 1976 436 pages P
                 Are our creators actually aliens? Well researched
                 and illustrated

UM1-28  $2.00    Crash Go The Chariots
                 Wilson, Clifford
                 Lancer 1972 126 pages P
                 This bursts Von Danikens balloon.

UM1-29  $1.75    Chariots of the Gods
                 Von Daniken, Erich
                 Bantam 1968 163 pages P

UM1-30  $2.25    Miracles of the Gods
                 Von Daniken, Erich
                 Dell 1975 291 pages P
                 40 original photos

UM1-31  $2.00    Devils Triangle, The
                 Winer, Richard
                 Bantam 1974 222 pages P
                 AKA the Bermuda Triangle. 16 pages of photos.

UM1-32  $7.50    Interrupted Journey, The
                 Fuller, John G.
                 Dial 1966 302 pages H
                 About the Betty & Barney Hill abduction case

UM1-33  $8.50    Kabbalah, The
                 Franck, Adolphe
                 Bell 1940 224 pages H
                 The religous philosphy of the Hebrews

UM1-34  $2.50    Metaphysical Meditations
                 Yogananda, Paramahansa
                 Self-realization fellowship
                 1964 115 pages P

UM1-35  $4.95    Upanishads, The
                 Translated by Swami Prabhavananda
                 Mentor 1948 128 pages P
                 Selected and translated principal texts from
                 the original Sanskrit.

UM1-36  $3.50    Age of Fable, The
                 Bulfinch, Thomas
                 Mentor 408 pages P

UM1-37  $6.95    Koran, The
                 Penguin 1956 447 pages P
                 The Muslim word of God

UM1-38  $2.25    Meditatins of the Masters
                 Edited by Hua, Ellen Kei
                 Thor 1977 125 pages P

UM1-39  $5.95    Magic, Supernaturalism and Religion
                 Seligmann, Kurt
                 Pantheon 1948 342 pages P
                 Many topics covered. Great reference book!

UM1-40  $2.50    Spiritual Instructions of Swami Muktananda
                 Muktanda
                 Dawn Horse Press 1974 15 pages P

UM1-41  $2.00    Power for Living
                 Buckingham, Jamie
                 DeMoss Foundation 1983 141 pages P
                 Inspirational

UM1-42  $2.50    Guide for the Perplexed, A
                 Schumacher, E.F.
                 Harper & Row 1977 147 pages P
                 Excellent philosophical book!

UM1-43  $4.25    Socrates Buddha Confucius Jesus
                 Jaspers, Karl
                 Harvest 1957 104 pages P
                 Excellent book that looks at the above 4 from an
                 existentialist POV.

UM1-44  $2.00    You-Forever
                 Rampa, Lobsang
                 Corgi 1965 219 pages P
                 A book by an ex-Lama of the Potala in Lhasa, Tibet

UM1-45  $2.50    Mere Christianity
                 Lewis, C.S.
                 Macmillan 1943 190 pages P

UM1-46  $2.25    Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet
                 Stearn, Jess
                 Bantam 1967 287 pages P
                 The life and prophecies of Edgar Cayce

UM1-47  $2.50    Guide for the Seeker
                 Hittleman, Richard
                 Bantam 1978 238 pages P
                 The philosophy of Yoga.

UM1-48  $3.50    Essays in Philosophy
                 Various
                 Washington Square 1974 542 pages P
                 Many essays by many well known philosophers.

UM1-49  $2.00    Power of Positive Thinking, The
                 Peale, Norman Vincent
                 Spire 1952 223 pages P

UM1-50  $18.95   Ideas and Opinions
                 Einstein, Albert
                 Bonanza 1954 377 pages H

UM1-51  $10.95   Presence of the Past, The
                 Sheldrake, Rupert
                 Vintage 1988 391 pages P
                 Morphic resonance.

UM1-52  $2.50    One Two Three...Infinity
                 Gamow, George
                 Bantam 1947 340 pages P
                 Facts and speculations of science.

UM1-53  $2.25    Games People Play
                 Berne, Eric MD
                 Grove Press 1964 192 pages P
                 The Psychology of Human Relationships

UM1-54  $2.25    Undiscovered Self, The
                 Jung, C.G.
                 Mentor 1957 125 pages P

UM1-55  $2.25    What Do You Say After You Say Hello??
                 Berne, Eric MD
                 Bantam 1972 456 pages P
                 The Psychology of Human Destiny

UM1-56  $2.85    Fellowship, The
                 Steiger, Brad
                 Ivy 1988 195 pages P
                 Spiritual contact between humans and outer space

UM1-57  $2.85    Transformation
                 Strieber, Whitley
                 Avon 1989 276 pages P

UM1-58  $2.85    UFO Abductors, The
                 Steiger, Brad
                 Berkley 1988 214 pages P

UM1-59  $5.50    In Search of Schrodinger's Cat
                 Gribbin, John
                 Bantam 1984 302 pages P
                 'Quantum Physics and Reality'.

UM1-60  $9.00    Puzzle Palace, The
                 Bamford, James
                 Houghton Mifflin 1982 465 pages H
                 A report on the NSA. America's most secret agency.

UM1-61  $20.00   Quest for the Past
                 Readers Digest  1984 320 pages H
                 Riddles from ancient man to medieval times.
                 Very general but has excellent illustrations

UM1-62  $18.00   Keepers of the Earth
                 Caduto, Michael J. & Bruchac, Joseph
                 Fulcrum 1988 209 pages H
                 Native American Stories & Legends



                     ***** HOW TO ORDER *****


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| How |  Item    |                                      |  Price  |  Price  |
| Many|  Number  |           Title                      |  Each   |  Total  |
|-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------|
|     |          |                                      |         |         |
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|     |          |                                      |         |         |
|-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------|
|     |          |                                      |         |         |
+-----+----------+--------------------------------------+---------+---------+          x
                                                        SUB TOTAL |         |
    SHIPPING/POSTAGE                                              +---------+
                                                         SHIPPING |         |
  $2.50  First Item                                               +---------+
    .50  Each Additional item                              TOTAL  |         |
                                                                  +---------+

YOUR NAME: _____________________________________________


ADDRESS:   ______________________________________________

CITY,
STATE:     ______________________________________________


ZIP CODE:  ______________________________________________


Where did you find this catalog? ________________________

_________________________________________________________


Mail check or money order for your order including shipping to:

AZTEC ENTERPRISES
PO Box 668
Bushkill, Pa 18324

Pennsylvania residents must add 6% sales tax.

Don't forget to include your name and mailing address.

Please note that prices and availability can change without
notice.  Used books are sold on a first come/first served basis.

All items are shipped ASAP but please be patient.  Delays are
possible on old, out-of-print and privately printed books and
reproductions.



*********  NON-UFO RELATED BUT OF VALUE NONETHELESS  *********



ITEM MN1-1  $2.50  (No shipping charge on this)

 Mortgages.  For most of us they are a fact of life.  They
wouldn't be so bad if they weren't with us for so long.  And it
is slightly depressing when we learn that we will pay back over
$300,000.00 on a $100,000.00 loan (30 years at 10%)!

 Yes, most of us need them, but there is a way to save thousands
of dollars on that payback.  A way most lenders won't tell you
about because, after all, that's their profit!

 But it's true! You can save hundreds or thousands of dollars
without refinancing your existing mortgage.  The process is easy
and simple.  You aren't obligated to make additional payments to
your lender and if you do the money is credited to your
account.  This is NOT a gimmick and it IS legal.

 Currently, there is a company in my area that is charging $50.00
for this information.  Information that is freely available if
you know the right questions to ask and whom to ask.  But we at
Aztec Enterprises feel that this too is a rip off so we have done
the research and are offering this same information to you for
only $2.50 which covers the cost of reproduction, handling and
postage.

 Yes, only Two Dollars and Fifty cents (that's not a misprint).
For $2.50 you'll receive:

HOW TO PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE FASTER AND SAVE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT PRIVATE MORTGAGE INSURANCE and

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT CREDIT LIFE INSURANCE

 All three documents are included for $2.50 and all three will
show you how you can save money.

 To order, mail a check or money order to:

 Aztec Enterprises
 P.O. Box 668
 Bushkill, PA 18324

 Pennsylvania residents please add 6% sales tax.


EOF

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SOURCES: Book list and Abduction counselers list
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:39:15 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 313
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1832 alt.conspiracy:6697





I got this list out of the back of a book I have just finished
reading, called "Encounters", by Edith Fiore, P.H.D., and
published by: Doubleday, 1989. ISBN #: 0-385-26236-1 . It's
an interesting book, in my opinion. What follows is _her_ book
list. I added "Confrontations" and "UFO Crash at Roswell" to
the list.

--+-------------------------------------------------------------
         Suggested Reading List
--+-------------------------------------------------------------

Andrews,George. "Extra-Terrestrials Among Us". St. Paul:
Llewelyn,1986

Berlitz, Charles and W. L. Moore. "The Roswell Incident"
New York: Grosset & Dunlap,1980

Druffel,Ann and D. Scott Rogo. "The Tujunga Canyon Contacts"
Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1980

Editors. "The UFO Phenomenon" . Alexandria, Va. : Time-Life
Books,1987

Emenegger, Robert. "UFO's: Past, Present & Future" New York:
Ballantine, 1986

Flammonde, Paris. "UFO Exist!" New York: Putnam, 1976

Fowler, Raymond E. "The Andreasson Affair" Englewood Cliffs, N.J.:
Prentice-Hall,1979

Fowler, Raymond E. "Casebook of a UFO Investigator". Englewood Cliffs,
N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1982

Fry,Daniel. "The White Sands Incident". Louisville, Ky. : Best Books,
1966

Fuller,John. "Aliens in the Sky". New York: Medallion/Berkley, 1969

Fuller,John. "The Interrupted Journey" . New York: Berkley, 1966

Good,Timothy. "Above Top Secret". New York: Morrow, 1988

Hopkins,Bud. "Intruders". New York: Random House, 1987

Hopkins,Bud. "Missing Time". New York: Richard Marek, 1981

Jung, Carl G. "Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky".
New York: Signet Books, 1969

Keyhoe, Donald E. "The Flying Saucers Are Real!". New York: Fawcett
Publications, 1950

Kinder,Gary. "Light Years". New York: The Atlantic Monthly Press, 1987

Larsen, S. J. "Close Encounters: A Factual Report on UFO's" .
Milwaukee: Raintree,, 1978

Lorenzen,J., and C. E. Lorenzen. "Abducted!" New York: Berkley, 1977

Montgomery, Ruth. "Aliens Among Us". New York: Putnam, 1985

Puharich,Andrija. "URI: A Journal of The Mystery of Uri Geller".
Garden City, N.Y. : Anchor/Doubleday, 1974

Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt. "UFO Crash At Roswell". Avon
Books, New York. 1991


Rimmer, John. "The Evidence for Alien Abductions". Northamptonshire:
Aquarian Press, 1984

Rogo,D. Scott,ed. "Alien Abductions". New York: New American Library,
1980

Rutledge,H. D. "Project Identification: The First Scientific Field
Study on UFO Phenomenon". Englewood Cliffs, NJ.: Prentice-Hall, 1981

Sachs,Margaret. "The UFO Encylopedia". New York: Perigee/Putnam, 1980

Sagan,Carl. "Cosmos". New York: Ballantine, 1985

Sprinkle, R. Leo. "Hypnotic and Psychic Implications in the
Investigation of UFO Reports". In "Encounters with UFO Occupants",
edited by C. E. Lorenzen and J. Lorenzen, 256-329. New York:
Berkley,1976

Steiger,Brad. "The UFO Abductors". New York: Berkley, 1988

Steiger,Brad and Francis Steiger. "The Fellowship" New York:
Dolphin/Doubleday, 1988.

Steiger,Brad. "The Star People". New York: Berkley, 1981

Strieber,Whitley. "Communion" . New York: Morrow, 1987

Strieber,Whitley. "Transformation: The Breakthrough". New York:
Morrow, 1988

Vallee,Jacques. "Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact"
Chicago: Contemporary Books, 1988

Vallee,Jacques. "The Messengers of Deception". Berkeley,Calif:
And/Or Press, 1979

Vallee,Jacques. "UFO Enigma: Challenge to Science". New York:
Ballantine, 1966

Vallee,Jacques. "Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien
Contact". New York: Ballantine Books, 1990

Von Daniken, Erich. "Chariots of the Gods?". New York: Berkley, 1984

Von Daniken, Erich. "Gods From Outer Space". New York: Bantam, 1972

Walton,T. "The Walton Affair". New York: Berkley, 1978

Wilson, Clifford. "The Alien Agenda". New York: Signet/New American
Library, 1988

--+------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Dr. Edith Fiore works with abductees, the following is her
list of Hypnotherapists working with Abductees/Contactees .

--+------------------------------------------------------------------

Aphrodite Clamar, Ph.D.             Sharon Moss, Ph.D.
30 E 60th St., Suite 1107           2947 Eastmoreland
New York, NY 10022                  Oregon,OH 43616
[phone]                      [phone]

Beverly J. Carter                   June Parnell, Ph.D.
4491 South Yates                    2219 Rainbow Ave.
Denver, CO 80236                    Laramie,WY 82070
[phone]                      [phone]

Ann Druffel                         June Steiner
257 Sycamore Glen                   987 University Ave., Suite 6
Pasadena, CA 91105                  Los Gatos,CA 95030
[phone]                      [phone]

Stephen Field, Ed.D.                Jo Stone, MFCC
800 Oak Grove, Suite 207            P.O. Box 2828
Menlo Park, CA 94025                Los Angeles, CA 90078
(415) 325-46788

Edith Fiore, Ph.D.                  Richard Sigismund
20688 Fourth St.                    1557 9th St.
Saratoga,CA 95070                   Boulder, CO 80302
[phone]                      [phone]

Josie Hadley                        Thomas J. Zinser, Ed.D.
2443 Ash St., Suite D               2041 Raybrook SE
Palo Alto, CA 94306                 Grand Rapids, MI 49506
[phone]                      [phone]


Richard Haines, Ph.D.               Tisha Hallet
P.O. Box 880                        450 San Antonio Rd.
Los Altos,CA 94023-0880             Suite 27
                                    Palo Alto, CA 94306
                                    [phone]

James Harder, Ph.D.                 Barbara Levy, Ph.D
2800 Hilgard St.                    317 Eureka St.
Berkeley,CA 94709                   San Francisco, CA 94114
[phone]                      [phone]
                                    [phone]

Linda Marie Martin                  Mary Ellen Trahan, Ph.D.
152 Olive Springs Rd.               205 Tanner St.
Soquel,CA 95073                     Carrollton,GA 30117
[phone]                      [phone]

Jeffrey Mishlove, Ph.D.             Raymond Moody, M.D.
48 St. Francis La.                  205 Tanner St.
San Rafael, CA 94901                Carrollton,GA 30117
[phone]                      [phone]


Sue Street, Ph.D.                   Patricia Shaw, Ph.D.
University of South Florida         225 S. Meramec Ave.,
St. Petersburg Campus               Suite 506
140th 7th Ave., South               St. Louis, MO 63105
St. Petersburg, FL 33701            [phone]
[phone]

Keith Thompson                      Norma Triggs
P.O. Box 5055                       10 Willow Creek
Mill Valley,CA 94942                Richardson,TX 75080
[phone]

Jean Mundy, Ph.D.                   Alice Rose, Ph.D.
33 Windward                         4651 Roswell Rd. Suite
East Hampton, NY 11937              I-8013
[phone]                      Atlanta,GA 30342
and 105 West 13th St.               [phone]
New York, NY 10011
[phone]

--+------------------------------------------------------------------
                       UFO Publications
--+------------------------------------------------------------------

The MUFON Journal
103 Oldtowne Rd.
Seguin,TX 78155

Walter Andrus Jr., is the director of MUFON. The journal
contains articles about international information and
research. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ]

--
Flying Saucer Review (FSR)
P.O. Box 12
Snodland
Kent ME6 5JZ
England

Edited by Gordon Creighton, FSR is published quarterly. The
journal features photographs and articles by an international
network of UFO researchers.

--
UFO Magazine
1800 S. Robertson Blvd.
Los Angeles,CA 90035

This newsletter gives information about UFO news and related
items of interest. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ]

--
Quest: The Journal of UFO Investigation
106 Lady Ann Rd.
Soothill, Batley
England

This magazine contains articles on the latest worldwide
UFO research regarding sightings and government reports.

--
Fate Magazine
3510 Western Ave.
Highland Park, IL 60035
[phone]

This magazine often has articles about UFO's, personal accounts
of both sightings and abductions, as well as summaries of the
latest theories and information.
--
The Star Beacon
P.O. Box 174
Delta,CO 81416

Edited by Ann Ulrich, this newsletter presents information
about UFO abductees and contactees and related topics.
--
Contactee: Research of UFO's by Direct Observation
P.O. Box 12
New Milford, NJ 07646

Published quarterly by Ellen Crystall, this newsletter
provides information about UFO abductions, contacts and
related topics.
--
White Star
P.O. Box 307
Joshua,CA 92252-0307

This newsletter provides channelled information about Earth
changes and prophecies about UFO/ET encounters.
--
Fortean Research Center
P. O. Box 94627
Lincoln,NE 68509

This group investigates UFO reports and other metaphysical
miracles.
--
Institute for UFO Contactee Studies
1425 Steele St.
Laramie, WY 82070

This organization counsels people who feel like they've had
a close encounter. It sponsors an annual contactee conference
each summer.

--
The New York Center for UFO Research (NYCUFOR)
13 W. Houston St., Suite 1
New York,NY 10012
[phone]

Michael Luckman, the director, sees this organization as a vehicle
for disseminating information about UFO's and extraterrestrials.
Conferences, lectures, media presentations are the main emphasis.
However, there is a referral service for those seeking help with
problems arising from their abductions/contacts.

-----EOF-------------------------------------------------------------

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: FILE: 3 Star Interview - Don Ecker for Paranet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:46:07 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 457
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1833 alt.conspiracy:6698



I pulled this off Paranet last year, and found it interesting. Any
questions on this text should be addressed to Michael Corbin, as
he's more familiar with all the particulars about it than I am.

------Begin Included Text -------------------------------------------


Message #16442 "ParaNet UFO"
Date: 06-Apr-90 00:12
From: Don Ecker
To:   All
Subj: 3 Star Interview

To all ParaNet Members;

When I uploaded the CARP.UFO report several weeks ago, I mentioned another
report that I had received.  The CARP.UFO report was an unsigned document, no
signature, and no return address.  As I stated in reference to that, I gave
no credence to the report because of the manner that I received it.  This
report is a bit different.  I did speak to the person that sent it, and am
still waiting to hear back from his group.  The file is an alledged interview
between two men, the interviewer is under a pseudonym of Bill.  The
interviewee is supposed to be a retired Three Star General that undertook a
favor to "Bill" to check into the UFO question.  The man I spoke to is the
director of this group, and even though he was aware of who I am, and the
reason for my questions, he refused to put me in touch with either of the
other two gentlemen "until they checked me out."  I am still waiting to hear
from them.

Because of some of the subject matter in the report, I had a feeling that
there was quite a bit of information in this report that had been deleted.
According to the director I was right. He told me that "Bill" was a still
active duty Full Colonel and that 3 Star was at one time Bill and his
commanding officer.

The deleted information is supposed to contain some very disturbing
information that deals with mutilations, both animal and human, and a large
number of abducted and missing children and young adults.  According to the
director of this group there were about 20 to 25 pages of deleted material.
Also seen but of course as is usual, a number of photos that 3 Star was able
to get at one point.  I would rate this report as highly strange, but at this
point unverifiable.  At any rate here is the report and any suggestions from
the members are most certainly welcome.

I will use Bill for the interviewer and  3* for the interviewee.

Don Ecker

*****************************************************************
THE INFORMATION IN THIS REPORT HAS BEEN EDITED FOR THE REASONS AS STATED
WITHIN.  MUCH INFORMATION WAS DELETED FOR THE PURPOSE OF RELEASE TO THE
PUBLIC.

Bill> Have you read the book "The Roswell Incident"?

3*>   Yes I have.

Bill> What did you think of the book and just how true is it?

3*>   Bill, as I promised you, I used my contacts and several
favors due me over the years and I found out extremely sensitive information
which absolutely verify the information as stated in the Roswell Incident.
The book intrigued me as I read it. At first, I felt the facts or should I
say information in the book were there just to sell it and make our Govt. out
to be the bad guy...as so many books do today. However, the public has been
lied to for over 40 years. This bothers me a great deal.  But decisions were
made decades ago. The situation in my opinion, is totally out of hand.

Bill> You look concerned and sound irritated. What is wrong?

3*>  Around 4 months ago I called in several favors. I was given
documents, allowed to view video tape, given photographs, base locations and
I was even asked to participate in the "Awareness Program"...which is to
disseminate Alien contact to the public.

I turned down the offer. When I did I was sort of an outcast and I found
friends of 30 years had no time for me. I soon was limited to all forms of
information. Hell, every time I requested anything through normal channels it
was either lost or delayed for "higher approval". This was normal everyday
decisions, which wer NEVER questioned before. I gave over --30-- years of
faithful and loyal service to this great country of ours. Who in the hell do
those political bastards think they are anyway?

Bill> I don't know what to say. I feel that because I asked for
the inquiry, you got into trouble. I really feel bad. I know you didn't get
where you are today by taking it easy. Did you retire?

3*>  You are not responsible! I kind-of knew what I might get
myself into. I always had my suspicions and I to heard the rumors about
alien spacecraft that crashed, bodies found, alien craft shot down, UFO
evidence stored in special buildings on certain military bases. I just never
really took it seriously. I know it is true. I have seen the evidence, I have
seen the alien craft, the frozen bodies from the Roswell site and I have seen
on video tape, the live alien which is a guest of the U. S. Govt. To answer
your last question, yes I did retire.

Bill> Could you give some specific information on the Aliens,
what they want, the govt. involvement, the reason why we have not officially
been told about alien involvement in our society and why all of the many
"strange" things or happenings associated with UFO sightings and
people-contact with aliens?

3*>  There have been several crashes of UFOs over the years. From
all documentation and information available that I have seen with my own
eyes as well as the physical evidence, this is in answer to your questions.
1. The aliens really do not have any sort of invasion planned for this
planet. Aliens have visited this planet off and on for thousands of years.
Our U.S. guest is over 300 years old. There are both "good and bad" aliens
just as there are good and bad humans. They are not all that different from
us. The aliens utilize around 55% of their brain capacity or ability. The
aliens do have DNA, just like we do. The alien which is the guest of the U.S.
Govt. is 5 feet 3 inches tall and weights 96 pounds. Large head (no hair)
large slanted eyes. Some of the aliens' abilities include moderate telepathy
and telekinisis.

The purpose of alien visitation to this planet is one of curiosity and
scientific research. Not world domination as some would
have you believe.
Cattle and humans have been used in alien and U.S. research for various
biological applications. Most humans are not hurt in this research and
experimentation. Some however, have died due to complications and down-right
carelessness.

Several cross-breed "young" have been born to both human females and alien
females. We as humans are fully biological compatible with most visiting
aliens. Some we are not. More that one type or specie of alien has visited
this planet. They are listed by category...this information I could not
retrieve.

2. The U. S. Govt. and the British ahve made secret treaty agreements with
the aliens in exchange for technology and so-called recon missions during
times of human conflict. The aliens have basically agreed not to concern
themselves with the wars or conflicts of humans. Not to interfere in society.
Let the Govts. rule and decide. Exactly what the aliens get in return was not
exactly made clear or available.

Also, there are special teams which eradicate, discredit, harass and
trump-up charges to control humans which experience any visitations from
aliens, or make verifiable UFO sightings. This is one of the reasons I
retired. It's too much for any govt. to impose upon the civilian population
like this.

3. Many of the strange happenings which people experience with UFO sightings
can be one of two things. First, simply an overactive and wishful
imagination. Second and foremost is the influence of the vast mental power of
the alien visitors. In the reports and experiments conducted with live
aliens, they have an incredible power of telepathic suggestion. Combine this
with their telekentic abilities and just about anyone can be some-what
directed to do or think just about anything.

Did I cover all of your questions?

Bill> One more and you'll be done. Why all the secrecy from day
one about the alien contact, the Roswell Incident, UFOs etc.?

3*> The Roswell Incident happened at a very hectic time. World
problems and domestic matters drew priority. Make no mistake, Pres. Truman
and later Pres. Eisenhower gave specific direct orders to keep everything
and I mean everything top secret. At that time, all alien (known as EBE)
information became departmentalized and dispersed on a need to know only
basis. I as well as others heard rumors and pursued our career with no
further thought to the matter.

Also consider the fact that even with today's high technology we still don't
know all of the propulsion system, craft manufacture and so forth. The most
recent information that I did manage to receive before I was cut off is that
the alien craft has more-or-less been copied by top scientific experts and is
functional.

The "special group" assigned to oversee the alien situation and other govt.
VIPs agree to gather all of the technology possible and put it to use for the
benefit of the USA. I really wonder what other motives are there. One very
important thought about reasons for secrecy are common religioius values and
beliefs. Most of the world religions (especially in the US) would tumble.
This in turn would cause panic and chaos. Something not wanted or needed in
any time.

Look at the big lie the Federal Govt. has created, promoted swore to and fed
to the public over the past 42 years. Even the Presidents of the US from 1947
to present day has lied about this situation. Talk about a cover up? If this
information would ever get out, many people from the President down would be
removed from office. Many would go to jail in one form or another.

My information led me to other more graphic reasons that I really don't want
to discuss. This whole situation is fantastic enough and the imnplications
are endless.

The "awareness program" that I mentioned earlier was designed to inform the
public about alien contact, landings, crashes, the Roswell Incident, UFOs and
the govt. All of this is filtered to the public in a systematic, logical way.
This is coupled with the increased alien--human abductions and contacts. This
is a joint govt. and alien program. If done correctly, there will be
extremely little or no panic and no resistance. The world govts. will retain
control and chaos is avoided.

Bill> Thank you very much for your time and this timely
information.

3*> Now that I have found this information out, I wonder about
everything I could not access or was prevented from learning when I turned
down the position on the "asareness program"?

Bill> I know that I am pushing it a bit here but could you go
into some of the topics that seem to be eating away at you?

3*> Lets take a break from this interview for now. Its after
11:00 PM and I'm tired. I'll give you a call in a few days and we will go
from there.

Bill> It sounds good to me too. I've got a lot of work to do in
the morning so I better call it quits for now.

=================================================================
This is the end of part one.  As this is a long interview, I will continue
with the second part tomorrow.  As they say, "Stay tuned."  <grin>

Don

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta < sm > The Data Base (1:30163/22)
Message #16715 "ParaNet UFO"
Date: 07-Apr-90 21:43
From: Don Ecker
To:   All
Subj: Part II 3 *


This is the second and final installment of the purported interview with a
retired 3 Star General, being interviewed by what was described to me as a
still active duty Full Colonel interested in the subject of UFOs.  Now prior
to continuing with this, allow me to make an observation.

Since I uploaded part one of this file, and with the upload of the previous
file -- CARP.UFO-- I have received several E-Mail notes asking me why I have
put out such outlandish and paranoid files.  I will answer like this.  First,
I do not believe that any of us here have a really good and solid idea of
just what is happening in the bizarre world of UFOs.  Since I have started to
explore this thing several years ago, believe me when I tell you that I have
experienced most of the angles of this subject. Everything from the
Space-Brothers are here to save us from ourselves, tales of ET love affairs
with the likes of the ledgendary Semjase ( now that is one ET I would LOVE to
meet! ) to tales of "Their here eating us!!" to the Leader of the free world
selling drugs to support MJ-12!!!!  What this all boils down to is a hell of
alot of rhetoric and damn little proof.  Oh, there is some proof to be sure,
ie mutilated cows, ( you ain't lived till you have been up to your elbows in
one ) scars on alledged abductee's ( one gentleman told me that he turned gay
after his 16th birthday because of repeated abductions.  he was tired of
being forced to copulate with alien females ) landing traces ( hard baked
soil compacted inches, something damn heavy had set down on it ) and tales
from dozens of people, living in some cases a whole continent apart ( with
the same information in uncanny detail ).  OK, what does this mean?  In my
opinion, it means that SOMETHING damn strange IS INDEED ONGOING..... so, that
means that the only way to find out is investigate and investigate some more.
 Knowledge is power, so the reason I have uploaded this files is that MAYBE
someone out there in computer land, ( and you would be really suprised where
all ParaNet DOES GO ) will have a missing piece of the puzzle, and better yet
will contact one of we happy little band of investigators -- with PROOF
.................... and by the way, to those good meaning folks that have
written me email, just because I put something up here, it does not mean that
I think this is what really is happening.  Always read what I have to say
about the file in advance.  In this case, I stated that there is HIGH
STRANGENESS in this one, BUT NO PROOF THAT IT IS LEGITIMATE.

*****************************************************************
 Part II of the 3 * interview.

JULY 14, 1989

Bill>  Thank you for agreeing to a second interview on this
topic. Did you enjoy your trip to the mountains?

3* >  Yes my wife and I had a wonderful time.

Bill>  What is bothering you so much about the alien situation?

3* >  As I mentioned before, there have been several UFO crashes,
not just the one in Roswell, New Mexico.  Look at the documents I brought
with me. The photos are quite explicit to the CARGO OF SOME OF THE UFOs.

Bill>  Why are there children aboard these crafts!? My God! You
don't mean that the aliens are snaching our kids?  What for??

3* >  There are over a million missing children every year in the
US alone. Now, not all of them have been taken by aliens. The aliens take
about 2,200 children a year from the US and other countries. Its all right
there in the report attached to the three photos. The rest of the missing
children are the result of mankind's dark side. You know what I mean. It's in
the paper every day.

The children are used in several ways; biological, to educate and return,
experimentation, disease study. The same as adults.

Bill>  Adults are one matter, but leave the children alone. I am
very bothered by this information. According to the report, implants are
being used on the people that are taken aboard UFOs and returned. Some of
these implants are microscopic in size (and smaller) and influence the
growth, function and learning capabilities of the individual. This is a very
detailed report. Could I have a copy?

3* >  No, Sorry but you know our agreement was that you did not
get to keep or copy any paperwork. As well as the other matters we
discussed.

Bill>  That you did! I will keep my word, don't worry.

3* >  I would like to mention a little bit more of why the public
have not been told the truth. Lets run through the whole thing rather
quickly.
1. Security/Fear Factor; Everyone feels safe knowing that the US
is one of the dominate powers on Earth. Right? The Human race is in control
and science will solve it all. The simple fact is--if you take away the
security of people it is replaced with fear! Fear is the first step to chaos.
Just imagine what would happen if there was an announcement that the govts.
are no longer in control, we have aliens living among us, they have kidnapped
our people, used them as guinea pigs, killed them, manipulated our culture,
tampered with our food, created new diseases to study on us, have interbred
with us and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.  Now, how do you
think the public would react?

2. The fact that the Govt. have been lying, covering up the truth, have
given permission for abductions and experiments on the public. Keep in mind
that the agencies involved are highly covert, funded very well and have
almost absolute power (life and death) over anyone who interferes.  How do
you think the public will react?

3.  Cures for certain diseases, free electrical power, pollution free
energy, no longer a need for fossil fuels, abundant food and water for
everyone.  All of this has been possible for many years now. What would
happen if this technology was turned loose to the public? The tech report
showed that within the first year over 18 million people out of work. The
monetary system would collapse and all of the other problems that go along
with it.  A REAL POSSIBILITY OF A GLOBAL NUCLEAR CONFLICT........ALL OUT OF
FEAR!! Is it really worth the chance?

Bill>  What you say does make sense when you think about it.
What is going on with the sudden surge in UFOs, aliens, abductions and the
like? Is this part of the awareness program?

3* >  Yes it is. The awareness program calls for the funding of
movies, series on TV, specials and books. All of the "front" money will
filter its way to fund a TV series or movie if it is deemed worthy of
friendly, helpful alien contact. An idea is passed along to the big named
producers and directors and if it takes hold, everything will fall in place
and the funding starts. It is really unique how it all works. Now way to
trace it to the govt. and the people involved truely believe it is their own
creative work. Everyone gets into the act and no problems. After the movie
hits the public, the reaction and interest of the masses are carefully
monitored.

Abductions of humans are both random and selective. Influential people are
selected to either -- explain and guide the public or to serve some political
need or requirement.

UFO sightings increase when needed to draw the attention of the public. You
must keep in mind that the mere mention of UFOs, aliens and the like will
draw weird looks, rumors and make people believe that you have a mental
problem, not playing with a full deck of cards and so forth. People will make
fun of you and will laugh at you! THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT. AND WHO
WANTS TO BE LAUGHED AT WHEN THEY ARE SERIOUS? The result is not one will say
anything unless there are many witnesses. The unique thing about this subject
is people don't want to believe. The general feeling is that mankind is all.
There is nothing else but God and Country. This is what most people believe.
I am not disputing or disagreeing with anything. I just find it amazing that
people in general are so damn stupid and stubborn. Let alone that many are so
pompous and self-rightous about their religion and self image. Do these
people have a rude awaking someday! It can surely be said that we are not
alone in this universe.

Bill>  How large are UFOs? What type oulsion system do the
crafts use? do you have any photographs I could look at?

3* >  The alien crafts are disc, triangle, oblong cigar shaped.
The range from 30 ft in dia. for the smaller recon discs to over 730 ft in
dia. for the larger "mother" discs or the flying saucer, if you will.

The triangle shaped crafts are 210 ft. in dia. This does not seem to change
as you can see in the photos which show 3 different triangle crafts which all
measure the same and are identical in shape and appearance.

The oblong cigar shaped craft is the real big one of the three. The only one
ever found by the military in the late 60's measured 1,100 ft. long with a
circumference of 310 ft. Take a look at this photo and read the report
attached. The information gathered from this one enabled us to copy the
basics of alien technology. It took 20 yrs to do so.

The basic propulsion system or drive is a fusion reactor which ranges in
size from about the size of a medicine ball, you know the one tossed around
in gym class, to about the size of a large Van or station wagon. It is a
magnetic drive surrounded by an aura of bright white light. This is for the
disc and triangle shaped crafts. The oblong cigar shaped craft does not have
this aura of light.  All crafts are almost totally silent. There is some
noise.

Bill>  I can't believe the photos! This looks like something
right out of the movies. The other report information which is stapled to
the photos is very detailed. This information is both fantastic and very
scary! I wish I could share this proof that I am now holding in my hands. I
know, I won't ask again. You have to get this evidence back where it belongs
before it is noticed missing, don't you?

3* >  Yes I do. If this documentation ever got out I am sure
several individuals would be terminated. The powers to be have a systematic
method and program that deals with documentation, verification and
termination of information and personnel.

The most important asset to the Govt. on the subject of aliens, UFOs,
cover-up story and the like is simply the "OVERALL PROJECTION OF PEOPLE THAT
HAVE UFO EXPERIENCES IS ONE OF FANTASY, DELUSIONS, MIS-CONCEPTIONS,
UNRELIABLE KOOKS AND CRACK-POTS AND DOWN RIGHT LIARS." Also keep in mind that
the news reporters and the news media in general, poke fun at individuals
with their quirk smile and light attitude about the whole thing.  Matters can
be documented. The proof is out there and is available. Many people must come
down off their high horse and open their eyes. it is no shame to admit that
you are wrong. No one knows everything and no one should be expected to.

Bill>  It seems to me that you have talked to several people
about this subject and the outcome has been negative? At least as you
describe the general attitude earlier. Maybe we ought to wrap this issue up?

3* >  I really hate to be sour about this subject but the people
of this planet have a God given right to the truth. Many people will not
believe what has been stated herein. Many questions are raised and can not be
answered. Certainly not to the satisfaction of many. Until the day comes when
the big announcement and/or experience happens to you --the individual--you
will be too busy and skeptical. Just like I was!

Bill>  Thank you for everything you have done for me. As I agreed
to do earlier, I will edit out the graphic details and other information you
requested to cover you identity and prevent the people who helped you obtain
the documentation from being suspected.

3* > I am well aware that there are no guarantees when this
informatioon hits the media. I just hope that the people involved with this
whole UFO, alien, and Govt. connection will come forward and let the world
know. I feel that mankind will become mature enough to think before acting in
the coming decade of the 1990's.

************************END OF FILE****************************

                END OF TRANSCRIPTION FROM MASTER TAPE--EDITED AS PER
AGREEMENT---  ( from the hard copy----  D. E. )

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta < sm > The Data Base (1:30163/22)

-----End of included text--------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 2: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:54:11 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 36
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1834 alt.conspiracy:6699





 Article #: 3
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 06-17-1986
  Subject: 1978 NEW ZEALAND ALERT

SOURCE:  AP AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND
  DATE:  02 JANUARY 1979 - SIGHTING DATE 21 DECEMBER 1978


A television news team from Melbourne, Australia says it filmed a UFO on
Saturday night while flying over the Kaikoura region of New Zealand's South
Island.  Aviation authorities reported that the UFO was apparently tracked by
radar as well, and the Royal New Zealand Air Force put a Skyhawk jet fighter on
special standby alert.

The pilot of the news team's plane said he first noticed a bright white light
about 20 miles ahead, and "It appeared to stay still until we got within 10
miles, then it turned with us as I changed course.  It then went above us and
circled and came down beneath us.  It was making definite movements in relation
to us."

PHOTOGRAPH:  AP.  UFO filmed by New Zealand news team.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 1: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:51:58 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 58
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1835 alt.conspiracy:6700





Article #: 1
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 06-17-1986
  Subject: 1978 AP PILOT DISAPPEARS

SOURCE:  AP MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA
  DATE:  25 OCTOBER 1978

AUSTRALIAN PILOT DISAPPEARS AFTER REPORTING CHASE BY UFO'S

Boats and aircraft have found no trace of the 20-year old Australian pilot who
disappeared with his plane on Saturday night after radioing that he was being
chased by a UFO.  Frederick Valentich was on a 125 mile training flight in his
single engine Cessna 182 along the coast of Bass Strait when he told air
traffic controllers in Melbourne that he was being buzzed by a UFO with 4
bright lights about 1000 feet above him.

Controllers said his last message was taped and was: "It's approaching from due
east towards me.  It seems to be playing some sort of game... flying at a speed
I can't estimate.  It's not an aircraft.  It's...It is flying past.  It is a
long shape.  I cannot identify more than that.  It's coming for me right now."
A minute later: "It seems to be stationary.  I'm also orbiting and the thing is
orbiting on top of me also.  It has a green light and a sort of metallic light
on the outside."  Valentich then radioed that his engine was running roughly.
His last words were: "It is not an aircraft."

The Australian Air Force said it had received 11 reports from people along the
coast who said they saw UFOs on Saturday night, but the Transport Department
was skeptical.  Ken Williams, a spokesman for the department, said, "It's funny
all these people ringing up with UFO reports well after Valentich's
disappearance.  It seems people often decide after the event, they too had seen
strange lights.  But although we can't take them too seriously, we can never
discourgae such reports when investigating a plane's disappearance."

Some Transport Dept officials have speculated that Valentich became disoriented
and saw his own lights reflected in the water, or lights from a nearby island,
while flying upside down.

Valentich's father, Guio, said his son used to study UFOs "as a hobby using
information he had received from the Air Force.  He was not the kind of person
who would make up stories.  Everything had to be very correct and positive for
him.  The fact that they have found no trace of him really verifies the fact
that UFOs could have been there." Guio Valentich said he hoped his son hadn't
crashed but had been taken by a UFO.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:55:44 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 57
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1836 alt.conspiracy:6701




    21-Jan-88 16:31 MST

   SYDNEY, Australia (AP) -- Police said Thursday they received two
reports of unidentified flying objects, one of which looked like a huge
egg cup, and that they were treating the matter seriously.

   Four members of a family said the object shaped like an egg cup
pursued their car along a remote stretch of outback highway Wednesday
morning, plucked it from the ground and covered it in ash, police
reported.

   Faye Knowles told police her speech and that of her sons changed
during the encounter on the highway.

   Crewmen of a tuna boat 50 miles away said a UFO buzzed their vessel a
few minutes later and their voices become unintelligible.

   "We were a little bit skeptical at first, but after investigating we
are treating the reports very seriously," said Jim Furnell, a police
sergeant in South Australia state.

   He said forensic scientists would examine the black powdery ash found
inside and outside Mrs. Knowles' car. She told police she was driving on
the Nullabor Plain from Perth in Western Australia when she first saw a
glowing object in her rear window at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday.

   "It apparently picked the car up off the road, shook it quite
violently and forced the car back with such pressure that one of the
tires was blown," Furnell said. "While this was happening the family
said their voices were distorted and it was as if they were talking in
slow motion."

   He said the crewmen of the tuna boat could not have known about Mrs.
Knowles' experience when they reported a UFO sighting in the Great
Australia Bight.

   Keith Basterfield of UFO Research Inc., an international organization
that records such sightings, said "it will certainly be the most
physical of encounters ever recorded in Australia" if the reports are
confirmed.

   A spokesman at the Royal Australian Air Force base in Edinburgh,
South Australia, said he was not aware of any military aircraft in the
area at the time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!applelink.Apple.com!showen
From: [e-mail] (Don Showen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 16:28:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Apple Computer
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1837 alt.conspiracy:6714

Zachary Harman obeys his mental programming and repeats it

>It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the
>whole Aliens thing is a big LIE.

Do you remember what implant station you graduated from?

Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!dorsaidm!magician
From: [e-mail] (Bill Carbonelli)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Looking for "Alien Visitors"-type Newsletter...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 91 07:12:03 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission ( Mail address : [e-mail] )
Lines: 18

Hi folks out there in Usenet Land...

I'm looking for an address for a Newsletter that i used to get (how i got on
the mailing list, i'll never know. Must've bought one too many gadget from
DAK, i guess)... It was a self-published thing by/for "Alien visitors"...
Had some very nice articles and poetry and stuff in it (which is why i read
the stuff... Very entertaining in a surreal sort of way)... The
publisher/editor used to speak of a man called "Rain Maker" or "Rain
Walker", who will come to whevever, and because he's there the place starts
to rain (you figure it out)...

Well, to make a long story short, if anyone has a contact address for this
group/newsletter, please Mail it over to me (please don't send it here, as i
really don't scan new messages very often)...

Many thanks in advance, and have a good one...          Bill C.

(Internet Mail to: "[e-mail]")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 91 22:21:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1839 alt.conspiracy:6727

[ Krill part 3 ...]
> sides of the same coin. This is verified in the book "The
> Undiscovered Country," by Stephen Jenkins. Jenkins was told by

Most interesting.  This is also the title of Star Trek VI.  Anyone have a
version of the screenplay?  Don't spoil it, just tell us if it has anything
to do with this book.

je<FF>
--
"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves,
only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that
there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!socs.uts.edu.au!syzygy!axolotl
From: [e-mail] (Iain D. Sinclair)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup?
Message-ID: <axolotl.683039890@syzygy>
Date: 24 Aug 91 13:18:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia (standard disclaimer)
Lines: 30

[e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes:

 >so, if anyone had seen a grey or any of the OTHER types, do you think they
 >would subject themselves to the examinations here, which almost rival those
 >on the ships??? :)

In this new hardback I flick-read in a store today, apparently
a 'grey' wandered into some Spanish doctor's office and asked for
an examination. It looked nearly human, except on close examination.
It then proceeded to tell the doc that humanity is really screwing up
our environment, and that you should stop, and we're telling you
this because the important people won't listen.

(The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.)

(Why am I posting this..?)



--
Iain Dick Sinclair       .,  [phone]
[e-mail]  '`  [phone] (fax)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Communion Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 91 03:05:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 76



Mike Corbin writes:


>
>Finally, I read the "Farewell Communion" crap.  What a load!  Strieber is
>definitely not working for the interests of his followers in that article.  He
>tells them that there is a time when the lamb must lay down with the lion and
>surrender.  In my opinion, he is so much as telling them to submit to whatever
>it is that wants them and to forget further questions or concerns.  A little
>dangerous, I must say.  Anyway, perhaps the reason that he hates mainstream
>UFOlogists so much is that exposure of Strieber's loyalty to whatever agency
>abductions represent is too great.
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

Yep....

I posted a snippet of this "Farewell" letter in a follow-up here
but it looks like it got 'buried' amonsgt all the replies to the
Strieber thread(s).

I saw on PN a few weeks ago that it was probably the same snippet that
was posted..perhaps for people reading about Strieber, we should perhaps
re-introduce this snippet again here...or not.

Frankly, I'm not really into a prolonged lengthy dissertation on Whitley
Strieber -BUT- it may be necessary to persist with this just a bit longer
so everyone following this thread doesn't get the *idea* that we are
bashing the Whit for no idle reason. It may be apparent as daylight to
both you and I WHY we have our opinions about Strieber the way that we do,
but in re-viewing the 3 or 4 extant threads going on now; I can see why
others reading this may just view it (from their perspective) that we
are just engaging in "character assasination".

First, I think we have to establish that Strieber has been working with
William L. Moore for over a year (and possibly more). I don't think
it's _enough_ that you and I implicitly understand what *that* means..
We do..but it will take some more explanation on our part to show
connectivity between cause and effect (ie...Strieber alone on "Communion"
and Strieber/Moore on "Majestic").

To properly show would require that we establish William L. Moore's heinous
part in the Bennewitz affair (Kirtland)...I have Bill English's various
letters to Moore about this on hand,Moore's reactions, etc..

Any recommendations, or are you (like me) burnt out on explaining the
Moore/Shandera/Strieber connection?

I don't have any problem that Strieber may have had a valid experience..

I _do_ have a problem with his gathering a following by his insertion of
his address in his books..his invitation to write to the author..and his
(now) abrupt change where he has left his band of followers "rode hard
and put up wet" (abandoned). This simply is NOT responsible behaviour for
someone who is very much in the public eye and who has performed a dis-service
to those who wrote in volumious letters of help. My (very personal)
*opinion* is that somewhere between "Communion" and "Majestic", that
Strieber has either been neutralized by Moore, or has in part, been in
service to the "UFO working Group" to carry out an agenda of dis-information.

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 91 03:23:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
> > Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT
> > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
> > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>
>
> >     UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded
> > organization
> >     covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and
> > origin
> >     of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the
> > profits
> >     rolling in.
>
>I have heard this theory before regarding the team that made up Project
>Blue Book.  They kept the reports mysterious just to assure continued funding
>for the project.
>

A few weeks back, I posted over 100k of Blue Book reports that Don Berliner
had compiled from his investigation when he had the notion (at the time)
to write a detailed book on the "missing reports". He released his work
into the public domain when he decided not to write the book..

Also, I've read accounts where Project Blue Book had an abyssmal track record
on files keeping..apparently there was no case correlations, no cross-referencesno follow-up to speak of on related cases by the Air Force or other military
branches that may have been involved. Berliner goes into some explanation of
this in the files I posted earlier.

Hmmmm...I note that the military wasn't lackadasial when it came to vehemently
denying that Project Bluebook Report #13 (Grudge) existed..

I had to laugh when I read somewheres that the "official" reason given by
the military/Govt for _why_ the reports jumped from #12 to #14 was that
(they felt) that #13 was "superstitious"... :-)

I guess the military/Govt thinks that we fell off the cabbage truck yesterday
and can't add 2 + 2 together...this is really a crock.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rainbow Declaration Pt1 - Humans and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 91 01:02:22 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 896
Xref: ns-mx alt.activism:15043 alt.conspiracy:6734 alt.alien.visitors:1843





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Message #1235 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 14-Aug-91  7:51
   From : ParaNet(sm) Information Service
     To : All
Subject : Rainbow Declaration, (Long)

The following is being posted by request.  It is very long (12 messages).  It
is not copyrighted according to the author, John Brandenburg, and he
encourages that everyone pass it around.  It is being reproduced in its
entirety as it appeared in the MUFON Proceedings.  ParaNet makes not claim to
its accuracy or content, and in no way endorses the material.

     THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AND HUMAN DESTINY IN THE COSMOS

                               by

                   John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D.

              (From the MUFON Symposium Proceedings)



                   John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D.

     John E. Brandenburg Ph.D. is a theoretical plasma  physicist
living  in  Alexandria, Virginia.  He is employed  by  a  private
scientific research firm in the Washington, D.C. area.
     Dr.  Brandenburg received his B.A. in Physics in  1975  from
Southern Oregon, A Masters in Applied Science from the University
of  California at Davis in 1977 and a Ph.D. in Plasma Physics  in
1981,  also at Davis.  His thesis was on confinement of a  plasma
of  very energetic ions and cold electrons using strong  magnetic
fields for the purposes of controlled nuclear fusion.  During his
graduate  studies  Dr. Brandenburg held a working  fellowship  at
Lawrence  Livermore National Laboratory and pursued  research  in
the area of controlled fusion.  On receiving his Ph.D., he became
a  staff physicist at Sandia National Laboratories,  Albuquerque,
New Mexico.  There he performed research on controlled fusion and
electron  beam  weapons.  He left Sandia in 1984  to  assume  his
present position.  His current work involves both directed energy
weapons and space defense problems.
     Dr.  Brandenburg has been involved in investigations of  the
Face on Mars and other Martian objects since 1984.  Together with
Vincent  DiPietro and Gregory Molenaar, the two pioneers in  this
area,  he is a member of the organization Mars Research and is  a
co-author  of Unusual Martian Surface Features Edition  IV.  John
Brandenburg    became    interested   in   space    travel    and
extraterrestrial  life  at an early age.  He joined  MUFON  as  a
Consultant  in Plasma Physics and is the author of  the  "Rainbow
Declaration,"  a statement of principles to govern the  relations
of peoples of different worlds.  He was a featured speaker at the
MUFON 1989 International UFO Symposium in Las Vegas, NV where  he
presented a paper titled "The Cydonian Hypothesis."
     Dr.  Brandenburg  may  be contacted  at  4732  Rouge  Court,
Alexandria, VA 22312.

     THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AND HUMAN DESTINY IN THE COSMOS

                  By John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D.


                           ABSTRACT

     In  this paper I will talk about the destiny of humanity  in
the  Cosmos as it is now unfolding before us.  I will  also  talk
about  the  Rainbow  Declaration, which is my  attempt  to  bring
together  what is good and precious from the human heritage  with
what we now know of the Cosmos, to the end that humanity's future
will  be  good  and  it will  achieve  its  appropriate  destiny.
However, this paper is really about knowledge and dialogue.


I.  INTRODUCTION:  STAR TREK OR STAR WARS?

I Corinthians 13: 9-12

     "For we know in part and we prophesy in part.  But when that
which  is  perfect is come, then that which is in part  shall  be
done away.  When I was a child, I thought as a child: but when  I
became  a  man,  I  put away childish things.   For  now  we  see
through  a  glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I  know  in
part; but then I shall know even as also I am known."
     When  we  speak of knowledge and the human  future,  we  are
speaking  of the increase of knowledge.  In the future,  humanity
will know much more than it knows now.  It will go places it  has
never  been, do and feel things it has never before  experienced.
Every  important aspect of this knowledge will be to  learn  more
about  the other peoples with whom we share the Cosmos.  Part  of
that process of learning is going on now.  However, this is not a
scientific investigation like any other we humans have done.   It
is not like studying the motion of bacteria in a test tube; it is
a dialogue.
      A  dialogue  is what occurs between two  or  more  sentient
beings; it is basically an exchange of information.  Humanity  is
probably  now  engaged  in a dialogue  with  peoples  from  other
planets that orbit other stars.  This dialogue has its origins in
the  distant past, but it seems to have only begun in earnest  in
the  last fifty years.  Many species seem to have been  involved,
but  only a few species seem to be playing an  active  continuing
role in the present course for this dialogue.  We know  something
of  this  dialogue,  which appears to be  between  primarily  our
government and the extraterrestrials.  What is reported from this
dialogue  will be discussed in this paper; however, the  reported
dialogue  will  also  be used to help create a  vision  of  human
destiny in the Cosmos.
     It  was  the consistent theme of the  popular  series,  Star
Trek,  that the human race would become a great  and  enlightened
power  in  the Cosmos and be joined in partnership  with  peoples
kindred to humanity.  This partnership, known as the  Federation,
was  made up of interstellar powers more or less in agreement  on
the ideals of democracy, freedom, and dignity of the  individual,
reverence   for  life  and  even  reverence  to  God.   In   this
Federation,  the  idea of separate species  of  intelligence  was
occasionally  transcended so that beings looked on each other  as
kindred despite their differing biological form.
     An equally hopeful, but somewhat darker and more mysterious,
vision of the human future was seen in Star Wars.  In this vision
the  humans  had created an Evil Empire and against  it  a  Rebel
Alliance   composed   of  humans  and   other   species   battled
desperately.   The theme of Star Wars was hope and  the  struggle
between  good  and evil on both physical and moral  planes,  with
good  being aided by the Force.  So there exist different  vision
of the future.
     It  is my belief that something more like the world of  Star
Trek  will  be  the ultimate destiny of humanity  and  that  this
destiny  is  something that we should strive for.  But  how  will
such  a  destiny  be  accomplished?   Can  we  avoid  Star   Wars
completely or is it also prophetic?  In particular, how will  our
interaction,  our  dialogue, with more  technologically  advanced
peoples  of  the  Cosmos, who are  already  starfaring  and  have
reportedly  already  arrived here, affect us and  how  will  this
shape our destiny?  Is our destiny Star Wars or Star Trek.
     Humanity  is  reportedly  now engaged  in  a  dialogue  with
extraterrestrial  peoples.  Ufology exists because of a state  of
honest  ignorance  of this dialogue on the part  of  the  public.
Honest  ignorance  can  be  defined  as  a  recognized  lack   of
knowledge.  The ufology movement is a brave vanguard of  humanity
that admits its ignorance of the Cosmos and those who dwell in it
and  seeks  to  erase this ignorance.  Because of  this  we  know
Ufology  will one day cease to exist in its present form  because
of  new knowledge that will appear.  Those in Ufology  are  brave
not  only because they risk ridicule from those who cling to  the
everyday, but because this is the real Cosmos we live in -- not a
fairy  tale -- and some pieces of knowledge we will gain  we  may
wish  we  did  no  know.  But learning  unpleasant  truths  is  a
essential part of maturing.  If you turn away some truths because
you  cannot bear them,  you can never really grow up.  But we  in
Ufology are determined to grow and mature and know.
     Knowledge   is  power,  knowledge  confers  authority,   and
knowledge confers responsibility.  For these reasons, governments
often  guard  certain  knowledges carefully.   One  of  the  most
important  concepts in our government's classification system  to
safeguard secrets is the concept of "need to know."   Authorities
decide  what must be done in a situation and who must do  it  and
then  portion out, ideally, only those knowledges to each  person
that  are  necessary  for them to do their  job.   Usually,  such
secrecy  and  portioning out of knowledge  occurs  in  situations
thought  to  gravely impact our nation's security  and  defenses.
The authority given the government to restrict certain  knowledge
is a sacred trust that derives from its duty to defend us.   But,
if    the    government   is   concealing   a    dialogue    with
extraterrestrials,  is it defending us from the knowledge of  the
E.T.'s  existence, or is this secrecy only part of an  effort  to
defend  us from some subgroup of the E.T.s themselves?   I  think
the  answer  is  some  of  both,  but  is  this  consistent  with
democracy?

     In  a  democracy  the  people rule  and  in  order  to  rule
effectively they seek knowledge, and they seek the responsibility
that  goes  with  that  knowledge.   In  doing  this,  they  seek
responsibility for their own destiny.
     It is wholly right that you in Ufology should seek knowledge
of  this matter.  Humanity's dialogue with the  extraterrestrials
is  a grave matter, a matter that concerns all humanity and  will
affect  the destiny of humanity.  You have a "need to know."   In
one sense the Ufology movement is part of the effort of  humanity
to  gain transcendent knowledge. However, in another sense,  your
efforts to gain knowledge, and the responsibility that goes  with
it,  is an effort to gain control of part of your lives and  your
children's  lives  and  the  destiny of  your  people.   This  is
especially   true  since  reports  of  deep   and   long-standing
government involvement in this dialogue have come out.   However,
Ufology  has  succeeded  to a degree in  entering  this  dialogue
between humanity and the extraterrestrials.
     Ufology is a player, I would argue, in the reported dialogue
between  humanity  and  the  extraterrestrials.   The  government
apparently is keeping much of this dialogue to itself.   However,
it   is  also  actively  sharing  information,  sometimes  in   a
deliberately garbled form, but information nonetheless.  Some  of
this sharing of knowledge seems to come from the individual human
need  to confide with others.  Some of this knowledge appears  to
have   been  released  as  a  result  of  decisions   by   higher
authorities to create an informed constituency among the public.
The  cultivation  of  the Ufology  movement's  knowledge  by  the
government represents, in my view, a crude form of democracy.
     In  this strange experiment in government,  the  authorities
have created a public hearing of sorts where unofficial news  and
views  are  aired  and  reactions  considered.   Ufology  is  the
multitude  who  have  showed up for  this  quasi-public  hearing.
However,  the  officials who have called this gathering  are  not
available to answer questions.  But, I think, the government pays
attention  to  Ufology's internal debates and  responses  to  the
government sponsored leaks.
     No  dialogue is one way, even if one side tries to  make  it
one  way.  A dialogue always affects both parties, even  if  only
one side is speaking.  The act of giving information to one  whom
you  know will receive it involves you with that person  or  that
people.   If a dialogue goes on long enough, information will  be
revealed  inadvertently  and  pretense  is  harder  to  maintain.
Ufology has not been a passive partner in this dialogue with  the
government.  Ufology is speaking and will continue to speak,  and
the government, even if it gives appearances of stopping its ears,
is actually listening.
     Therefore,  all of you in Ufology should consider  that  you
are part of a dialogue with the government.
     This  is not the only dialogue going of which Ufology  is  a
part.    Ufology   is   actually   in   a   dialogue   with   the
extraterrestrials through abductees and contactees.  As with  the
government,  not  all  information is very reliable,  but  it  is
information.   It  is possible, in fact,  that  extraterrestrials
monitor the reaction of the Ufology movement to gain some insight
into  humanity  in  general.  Therefore, all of  you  in  Ufology
should  consider  yourselves  as part of  a  dialogue  that  will
influence human destiny in the Cosmos.
     In  the  remainder of this paper I will discuss  three  main
points:
     (1)   It is the destiny of humanity to take its place  among
the  stars as an equal with its kindred people among  the  stars.
In  discussing  this, I will discuss the nature and  heritage  of
humanity.
     (2)  The cradle of humanity, the Earth, with its nations and
history,  is  a  microcosm  of the Cosmos  and  its  peoples  and
history.   I  will discuss how this concept is  derived  and  its
meaning  to  Ufology.  I will also,  unfortunately,  discuss  the
first problem in the present that can be addressed by this model:
The   apparent  threat  posed  to  humanity  by  one   group   of
extraterrestrials, "the grays" or Reticulians and their allies.
     (3)   Humanity should adopt the Rainbow Declaration or  some
similar set of principles as its ideal and in doing so will begin
the journey to its destiny on the right Way, the Way of truth and
light.  (Reference 1)

II.  HUMANITY AS A SUPERTERRESTRIAL PHENOMENON

PSALMS 8: 3-6

     "When  I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers,  the
moon and stars which thou hast ordained;
     What  is man, that thou are mindful of him, the son of  man,
that  thou visitest him?  For thou hast made him a  little  lower
than the angels and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
     Thou  madest  him to have dominion over the  works  of  they
hands; thou has put all things under his feet....."

      In  order  to  understand  human  destiny  one  must  first
understand  the nature and origins of humanity.  Humanity is  not
just  flesh and blood; it is partly supernatural; it is  also  the
collective mind, dreams and cultural heritage of the human  race.
Physically  we  have changed little since the stone age,  but  in
knowledge and technological ability we have changed enormously.
     We  are  a young race, just getting started.   Our  earliest
civilization dates roughly from the Tigris-Euphrates Valley  6000
years ago. (Reference 2)  In that 6000 years we have expanded and
filled  the  Earth, our flesh and blood has stood  on  the  lunar
surface  and returned six times.  Our probes have landed on  Mars
and  Venus.  We, by proxy of similar probes, have  visited  every
major body in the solar system from Mercury to Neptune.  Four  of
these probes have now escaped the solar system and the gravity of
the  Sun and are on interstellar missions.  So a little  part  of
you, the work of your hands, is now on its way to the stars.
     Six  thousand years is roughly 300 human generations  of  20
years or 100 human lifetimes of 60 years.  So this is perhaps not
even  a long time in human terms, but it is the twinkling  of  an
eye in terms of the age of the Earth or even the living things on
the Earth.  You humans, all in all, have done magnificently.
     How  did you do it?  Did anyone help you?  Let  us  consider
what  is widely reported.  In Ufology, as in many other areas  of
life,  information consists of what is reported to us by  others,
hopefully  we can verify some of what is reported, but  often  we
must simply consider the report and decide for ourselves  whether
of not we believe it.
     It  is  widely reported that humanity came into being  as  a
result of profound and continuing contact between the human  race
an an unimaginably powerful extraterrestrial being.  This  being,
or  First  E.T.,  is called in our language,  God.   I  know  and
respect  the  fact  that  there are  many  accounts,  all  subtly
different,  of this contact, but I will chiefly consult the  only
account I know well, and this account is called the Bible.
     In this account, the First E.T. is reported to have been  of
staggering  and all encompassing power but was at the  same  time
compassionate  towards  humanity and controlled in  his  dealings
with  them.  He is reported to be the creator of the  Cosmos  and
therefore  extracosmic  in addition  to  being  extraterrestrial,
having created both heavens and the earth and all they contain.
     It  is reportedly from God that humans first received  their
concepts of law and human identity and their place in the  scheme
of things.  I would claim this contact has continually linked our
ideas of what was good and pure and truthful to the heavens.   It
is because of this contact that we long to reach out to the stars
and those who live there.
     It is in this record of contact with the First E.T. that  we
first  encounter  the  human  concept  of  universal  laws,  both
physical and moral, and these are also associated with the stars.
     PSALMS,  19:1-3  "The Heavens declare the glory of  God  and
the  firmament  showeth his handy work.  Day  unto  day  uttereth
speech  and  night  showth  knowledge.  There  is  no  speech  or
language, where their voice is not heard."
     We also learned that there was more to reality than what  is
seen.
     HEBREWS, 11:1-3  "Now faith is the substance of things hoped
for,  the  evidence  of things not seen.  For by  it  the  elders
obtained  a  good report.  Through faith we understand  that  the
worlds  were formed by the word of God so that things  which  are
seen are not made of thing which do appear."

     We are familiar, in our modern age, of laws of physics being
universal.   Our  sciences  had their origins  in  astronomy  and
astrology.  But from our accounts of contact with the First E.T.,
we also are informed that there are universal moral laws as  well
as physical ones that apply on all worlds.
     It  is  also from this record that we  encounter  our  first
recognition and warning concerning the dark side of human nature:
     GENESIS,  6:5  "And God saw that the wickedness of  man  was
great in the Earth and that every imagination of the thoughts  of
his  heart  was only evil continually..."  The human race  is  an
aggressive,  predatory  and vigorous species.   It  requires  the
maximum  effort  of our intellect and compassion to  control  our
instincts  to violence and war; sometimes, perhaps  often  times,
these  are  not  enough.   However, the  First  E.T.  has  always
encouraged us to be a people of compassion and intellect.
     Curiously,  it  is from this same record of the  first  E.T.
contact  with  humanity  that  we  find  reports  of  a  possible
visitation of Earth by flesh and blood extraterrestrials.   These
E.T.s  were not only flesh and blood, but could have children  by
earth  women,  indicating they were probably  extremely  humanoid
since  they  were  attracted to Earth women  and  saw  they  were
beautiful.  Mention of this is made in Genesis 6:4.
     This  was  apparently  one  of  many  things  that  God  saw
happening  on Earth that displeased Him.  Perhaps even "the  last
straw,"  for  it  is written that He unleashed  the  great  flood
shortly after this.  The flood, that primal human catastrophe, is
recorded in the legends of almost every people on Earth and wiped
out most of humanity, including, we can infer, those offspring of
flesh and blood E.T.s.  It is written, God started over with what
was left.
     Other  than  this possible mention of flesh  and  blood  E.T.
contact  before  the  flood  in the  Bible,  which  may  also  be
mentioned  in many mythologies, I have seen no credible  evidence
of  any  overt  or historical record dating  back  to  1000  B.C.
Geologically,  the origin of homo sapiens is sudden, but  it  has
been  found  that all distinct species seem to  appear  suddenly.
This is called "punctuated equilibrium" in evolutionary  biology.
(Reference 3)
     Other  than  reportings of sightings of strange  craft  that
occasionally  appear  in  the historical record, I  can  find  no
evidence of influence by flesh and blood E.T.s on any  historical
events.  What does show up is a tradition and folklore concerning
goblins  stealing children, tales of fairies, leprechauns,  elves
and  spirits.  This tradition may indicate some E.T.  contact  on
the  fringe of human social awareness, as has been  suggested  by
Whitley Streiber.  (Reference 4)  I think, also, it reflects to a
much larger extent, human imagination and love of story  telling.
These  strange  accounts also include other things which  may  be
purely  terrestrial  but  not really part of a  reality  that  we
understand.
     Though  the records of events before the primal  catastrophe
of  the  Flood are difficult to understand, it  remains  the  one
significant  human event that may have involved flesh and  blood
E.T. contact.
     It  is  worth  noting  that the  record  implies  that  this
contact,  along  with many other things purely  terrestrial,  had
disastrous consequences for the human race because of the  manner
in which the contact was made.  It is written in Genesis 6:2:
     "The  sons and daughters saw the daughters of men that  they
were  very  fair,  and they took them wives  of  all  which  they
chose..."
     This  record implies that these unions were dictated by  the
"Sons  of God", a term used sometimes to mean angel, and  not  by
choice  to  the  Earth women.  These  reported  events,  and  the
juxtaposition  with  the Flood and God's displeasure,  should  be
remembered as we consider reports of what is occurring in our own
time.   It also must be remembered that according to the  account
of  the contact with the First E.T. in the Bible, evil is  not  a
terrestrial  invention; it was present in the Cosmos eons  before
the first human being.
     The Bible and other religious records of Earth, record  that
both good and evil are not purely terrestrial phenomenon.  Ananda
Sirisena  has  pointed out in a two-part article in  the  British
journal  Beyond  Science (now defunct)  that the  holy  books  of
Buddhism  remark  that sense-desire, which is the source  of  all
unhappiness, is to be found throughout the Cosmos.  (Reference 5)
In the Bible, it is written in Job, 15:15
     "The heavens are not clean in His sight."
     It is also written in Revelations 12:7-9 that there was  war
in  heaven between the Archangel Michael and his angels, and  the
Devil  and his angels.  These are only two of many  examples  one
could name.  In general, the records of our reported contact with
the  First E.T. report repeatedly that the Cosmos,  both  visible
and  invisible,  is full of good and evil and that  these  forces
struggle   against   one  another,  Earth  being   an   important
battleground of this Cosmic struggle.
     This  brings us to the second widely reported  E.T.  contact
that  has  influenced  Earth.   This being  is  known  as  Satan,
Lucifer, or the Devil.  Like the first E.T., he is reported to be
non-corporeal.  However, he is reported to be a created being and
part  of the Cosmos whereas God is the Creator.  His  powers  and
intellect  are reported to be unimaginably great in  human  terms
but,  like  ours, insignificant compared to God's.   It  is  also
reported  that  despite his intellectual powers, he  often  makes
mistakes  that are apparent even to humans.  His  first  reported
error  was  to try and stage an unsuccessful revolt  against  his
Creator.
     Most  of  what we know about the Second E.T.,  Satan,  comes
from information reported to be from the First E.T.  This  record
allows  us  to  make  a vivid  comparison  between  them  in  two
important  areas:  One, dialogue with humans; The First  E.T.  is
recorded  to  be  always truthful, though he  seldom  shows  more
knowledge than is required.  In contrast, the Second E.T., Satan,
is  reported  to  be a compulsive liar and  virtual  inventor  of
treachery.   It is reported he often claims to be the First  E.T.
and  often  traps  victims  with  empty  promises  of   forbidden
knowledge  and technology.  Second, relationship  with  humanity;
the First E.T. is widely reported to love the human race and  all
other  peoples  of  the  Cosmos as if  they  were  his  children.
However,  he  is  also reported to hold us  responsible  for  our
actions, which  knowing the human race, means we occasionally are
at  odds.   The  Second E.T., Satan, is reported  to  be  utterly
contemptuous  and  hateful towards humans, especially  those  who
serve  him.   His hostility is constant, though  often  expressed
through  treachery and attempts to corrupt, rather  than  through
open warfare.
     It  is  reported that though the Devil  hates  humanity  and
wishes  to  destroy us, he cannot attack openly  because  of  the
presence  of the First E.T.  Therefore, we learn that absence  of
open attack does not always mean absence of mortal hostility.  It
merely means that the Cosmos is not simple, and that many factors
constrain the action of its inhabitants.
     Humanity is thus not a purely terrestrial phenomenon.   Even
our science is full of knowledge known first from observation  of
the stars.  If the record of our contract with the First E.T. are
believed, humanity is the product of influences that are not only
extraterrestrial but extracosmic, that is, transcending even  the
stars.  If these reported contacts with God are correct, and many
believe  they  are, then humanity knows these things  because  it
knows  the Being who made the Cosmos and its  peoples,  including
ourselves.  Humanity, and by this, I mean the readers themselves,
are possessors of Cosmic knowledge, but they do not know it  yet.
However, to know something of humanity one must understand that a
part  of humanity, like its Creator, is extremely mysterious  and
some of it is unknowable.
     To know something of humanity is to know of its mystery  and
its  magic.   There is a part of humanity that only  God  himself
understands.  I speak here of a whole category of phenomenon with
the inadequate terms "parapsychological" and "spiritual" --  that
part of ourselves that is manifest in religion, and yet seems  to
exist  apart from it.  One aspect of this was termed by  Jung  as
the  collective unconscious.  (Reference 6)  This is the part  of
humanity  that  seems  to guarantee that no  knowledge  can  ever
remain  isolated in one portion of the human race, even  if  they
never tell anyone of it.  Another can be called human  prescience
--  that human capacity to write or speak of events still far  in
the  future with uncanny accuracy, science fiction being  a  vast
upwelling  of  this human phenomenon.   No  statement  describing
humanity  could  be complete without referring to  this  part  of
humanity which is mysterious and difficult to describe.
     Therefore, you should respect yourself and your people.  You
know  more about the Cosmos than you realize.  You  are  stronger
and  more marvelous than you know.  You should not  be  arrogant,
but  you should be proud.  You lack knowledge, but you are  eager
to  learn.  You are small now but you are going to  become  great
and  "becoming  is  superior  to being."  You  are  a  young  and
vigorous  people, just off the train and in the big city for  the
first time, bent on finding your fortune.  So now that we have an
image  of humanity as it was formed and is, we can speak  of  the
destiny of humanity in the Cosmos.


                     THE DESTINY OF HUMANITY

     Hints of what our destiny will be are contained, I  believe,
in  the record of our contact with the First E.T. who pointed  us
to  our goal.  He said in paraphrase, "someday if you follow  the
Way I have shown you, you can join me in the heavens of which the
stars are but a shadow."  God, in fact, showed Abraham the  stars
and said in Genesis 15:5:
     "And He brought him forth abroad, and said, look now towards
heaven  and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them.   And
he said, so shall thy seed be."
     There is also another hint, for Jesus told his disciples  in
Mark 16:15,
     "Go  ye  unto all the world and preach the gospel  to  every
creature."
     For  in  the original Greek, the word for world  is  Cosmos,
(Reference  7)  meaning  the  whole  world,  the  whole   ordered
universe.
     I know in myself, that humanity is going into space  because
it yearns to do so.  The goal of its yearning is not just to  see
strange new worlds; it is to have fellowship with the peoples who
dwell  amid the stars and share truth with them.  In a  sense  we
are  going into confirm truths that we already believe.  That  is
part  of the reason that Ufology exists, not just because  people
in  Ufology are curious or concerned but also because we seek  to
be part of that dialogue.
     We have, on good account, that such a dialogue is  possible,
as recorded in Timothy Good's book Above Top Secret.  There is an
account  of  Sid  Padrick's experience  (Reference  8)  where  he
encountered  startlingly  humanoid  beings  who  were  kind   and
respectful  and  who  invited  him  to  pray  to  God  in   their
"consultation room."  They said they worshipped the same  Supreme
Being   we  did.   This  reported  encounter,   whose   positive,
respectful  character is such a stark contrast to  most  reported
encounters,  give us hope that we will find what we seek  in  the
stars.  But you must realize we inhabit a star already.
     Our  star,  Sol, the Sun, is a beautiful  golden  star  from
afar.   Around it orbits a beautiful blue-white star of a  planet
called  Earth, for that is what our planet looks like from  afar.
Venus, Jupiter, and Mars are beautiful from Earth, but I tell you
when you see the Earth someday from the surface of Mars you  will
understand  that  the Earth is the most beautiful  planet  in  the
solar  system,  or  even in a hundred  solar  systems.   That  is
partly why other peoples have come here.
     So  I will tell you I believe it is the destiny of  humanity
to  go out into the stars and become a great nation and find  its
place  among the stars and among the great nations that dwell  in
the  stars;  nations  whose people believe in  God  and  justice,
equality,  and  good will as we do, and who, when they  read  our
Bible  or the Declaration of Independence, will rejoice that  the
same  truths  they  know are known elsewhere and  from  the  same
source.

III  DYNAMICS BETWEEN PEOPLES IN THE COSMOS

     We have now discussed humanity and its destiny, but how will
our  destiny  be shaped by those peoples with whom we  share  the
Cosmos?  In particular, is there some model or broad guideline to
consult to understand the dynamics of politics between nations or
peoples who have their genesis in different star systems?  We can
come  up with a rough model by assuming that the laws of  physics
and  biology are the same everywhere in the Cosmos.  Once such  a
model  of  cosmic  politics  is formed,  it  can  be  applied  to
understand and predict the interactions between humanity and  its
fellow cosmic peoples.
     A model of cosmic politics can be derived from biology.   We
must assume that the laws of biology are universal, so that  they
are  the same on all worlds, like the laws of physics.  Since  we
know  about the laws determining biology on Earth, we would  then
know  about  biology laws on all worlds.  We  must,  of  course,
recognize  from  the  outset  that  we  can  only  gain  a  rough
understanding at best using this method, but we must have a model
and  we  must  begin  somewhere.   So,  we  look  for  basic  and
fundamental  laws rather than detailed ones.  We will  thus  look
for  laws the describe forests rather than trees.  Once  we  have
identified fundamental biological laws, we then try to find  laws
of politics on Earth that can be derived from them.  We will then
have a rough model.
     The first law of biology can be called "the survival of  the
fittest."   This means that all life is essentially  competitive.
This means those who are more intelligent, faster, stronger, more
diligent,  more  fertile, more efficient, and more  prudent  will
eventually dominate over those who have less of these  qualities.
This seems a harsh law of nature, but in some ways it is actually
kind.   In  any  case, nature is not often known to  be  kind  or
gentle.
     One impact of the first law of biology is that  intelligence
is  favored in predators. On Earth, predators are generally  more
intelligent   than their prey.  They must be or their  prey  will
outwit  them and the predators will not eat.  The octopus is  the
most  intelligent  of  all  invertebrates  and  it  is  a  fierce
predator.  The killer whale is believed to be the smartest of the
whales and it is a vicious killer of other whales.
     The  Chimpanzee is the second smartest land animal, and  its
capacity for mayhem against other species and even other  chimps,
rivals  our own. (Reference 9)  Curiously, researchers were  slow
to recognize how murderous chimps were to each other --  fighting
between tribes and occasionally killing their own young.  Perhaps
the researchers did not want to believe the chimps were as  prone
to violence as we are.  Even when researchers found out the harsh
facts  about internal wars between chimps they were reluctant  to
report  it.  They  feared  it would horrify  people  and  dry  up
research funding.  People were not horrified; however, they  were
enlightened, and chimpanzee research in the wild continues.   The
truth  makes chimps all the more fascinating and useful to  study
if human violence is to be understood and controlled.
     Another  example  of  the correlation  of  intelligence  and
predatory  behavior is the line of dinosaurs that appeared to  be
evolving   towards  something  resembling  humanoids  before   an
extraterrestrial event wiped them out.  (Reference 10)
     It is now believed that a line of small predator  dinosaurs,
roughly  resembling  miniature  Tyrannosaurus  Rexs,  would  have
developed  into a humanoid intelligence.  They stood on two  feet
and  several species had achieved brain to body  sizes  exceeding
all other dinosaurs and even mammals then existing.  However, the
impact of a massive asteroid, a clear sign this planet's  history
has  witnessed  extraterrestrial  intervention,  devastated   the
planet and cleared the Way for humanity.
     Human  beings are predatory.  Humanity began as hunters  and
gatherers  but  hunting  behavior  did  not  cease  when   humans
discovered agriculture -- it merely changed.  The  archaeological
record  shows that organized warfare began almost  simultaneously
with  agriculture.   (Reference  11)   Historically,  tribes  and
nations have fought wars and struggled for dominance as a form of
biological  competition.   The  apparent victory  of  the  United
States  in the Cold War is demonstration that democracy and  free
enterprise, while not without their faults, have become dominant,
because  they are better and more efficient in the long  run,  or
even  the  short  run, than despotism and Marxism.   So  our  own
violent  history,  which despite its violence  has  produced  the
triumph of liberty and humanity, can be understood as a vast game
of  survival of the fittest among groups of rather predatory  and
aggressive beings.  But there is another law of biology that also
played a profound role in this and which we must also factor into
our cosmic political model.
     The  second  law of Biology is roughly "the sum  is  greater
than  the parts."  Or stated differently, in cooperation  and  in
unity,  there  is strength.  One human cell alone will  die;  one
trillion  human cells bound together, each doing its  part,  will
thrive  and  triumph.  So one human can do little,  but  a  large
number can move the Earth and someday change the course of stars.
This  second law, that cooperation leads to success, is seen  not
only in biology but in human politics and history.


                    ENCOUNTERS IN THE COSMOS

     The  HHM would say that encounters between E.T. nations  and
Earth  nations  are similar to encounters between  less  advanced
nations and European explorers and exploiters.
     Generally, the more advanced and organized the less advanced
nation was, the better it fared.
     Example:  Japan  was  politically united,  and  on  its  own
islands,  militarily  fearsome, despite having  lower  technology
than  the  Europeans.  However, faced with a massive  display  of
American naval power (the ships were carefully painted white  and
black to look impressive), the Japanese government agreed to open
up  for  trade  and diplomatic relations.  (Reference  13)   They
reorganized  their  society  and held  the  Americans  and  other
foreigners  at bay militarily, thus preserving their  sovereignty
while  most  other  small  Asian nations  are  conquered  by  the
Europeans.  They adopted Western technology and finally became  a
great power.  This did not prevent them from getting into trouble
later,  but  they  did very well  during  the  European  Colonial
period.
     The American Indians present a tragic counter example.  They
were politically disunited, had no concept of the world view  and
ambitions  of  the  Europeans  and  were  technically   backward.
However,  it was not lack of technology that caused them to  lose
their  land;  it was a lack of comprehension of the  threat  they
faced.   If  they  had  known what  they  were  facing  from  the
beginning,  they  could have swept the Europeans  into  the  sea.
Instead, they lost almost everything, land, heritage, and most of
their  population, to a slow but relentless advance of the  white
man.

                        WAR IN THE COSMOS

     The  HHM tells there will be power politics between  peoples
in the Cosmos.  Sadly, it also tells us that since "war is merely
politics  extended by other means," (Reference 14) there  must  be
war  in the Cosmos between nations.  I have already  referred  to
the  Bible where it tells of war in heaven in Revelations;  Thus,
it is written that Earth is not the only arena of war.
     I have often referred to the Bible in this talk and will  do
so  again; however, I also have spoken, in general, of  books  of
ancient wisdom of Earth and how they would be useful in  advising
us  concerning the Cosmos.  I will now begin referring to such  a
useful  book of ancient wisdom.  It is a book of the  East  where
the  Bible is a book of the West, but it is ancient and  wise  in
my  view  and  along with the Bible and other books  I  think  it
offers  humanity  great help.  This book it Sun Tzu, the  Art  of
War.   I commend this book to your study.  Sun Tzu writes to  us,
"military  action is important to the nation -- it is the  ground
of  death and life.  The path of survival and destruction, it  is
imperative to examine it." (Reference 15)
     War  occurs  in  the  Cosmos  as  part  of  a  struggle  for
dominance;  it is an aspect of the law of competition of survival
of  the fittest.  On Earth, nations go to war for  territory  and
resources so they can prosper and grow and their competitors will
wither  and  shrink, or be absorbed.  According to he  HHM,  wars
occur  in  the  Cosmos  over stars  and  planets  and  the  space
containing them.
     We  know that stars like the Sun that are single and of  its
special  range F through K type are best for having life  bearing
worlds  around them, like the Earth. (Reference 16)   The  hotter
stars  are  too short lived and the dimmer, cooler ones  are  too
unstable.  We also know that planets like Earth, that are  living
planets, with oxygen atmospheres, and favorable temperature,  are
rare.  Only  one  such planet exists in this  star  system  which
contains nine planets.  Mars may have once been a living  planet,
but it is now dead.  According to the HHM, people will fight over
land and ocean and resources like those found on Earth. Therefor,
the HHM says that the space containing stars like the Sun  around
which  orbit planets like the Earth, with intelligent  beings  or
not  on  them,  are the things over which people  of  the  Cosmos
probably fight wars.  They fight, because if you can have such  a
planet, you can settle a million individuals on it, and they will
become  a billion in a few centuries.  If they can have ten  such
planets, a people can prosper and become great; if a people loses
ten such planets to a competitor, then they will become weak  and
despised...their seed will not be as the stars of heaven.
     War  between  advanced  peoples both  of  whom  may  possess
nuclear  weapons  is probably highly risky, even  if  one  side's
space  technology  is  highly superior.   Nuclear  weapons,  like
gunpowder on Earth, is probably a great equalizer in the  Cosmos.
In addition, space, by definition, allows cultures to develop  in
great  isolation  from each other, and thus have  very  different
levels  of  technology.  For these reasons, wars  in  the  Cosmos
probably  seldom  take place between equals.  War on  Earth  most
often  comes  about  from  a  perceived  imbalance  of   military
capabilities.   Life  on Earth is not fair; probably  neither  is
life  in the Cosmos.  So we would expect some peoples will  carry
out  wars of conquest or extermination against their  weaker  and
less  advanced  neighbors.  Since these wars will  involve  armed
conflict  between very different cultures and species, they  will
probably be very cruel, as such wars are on Earth.  In predicting
this,  I  am supposing that some peoples of the Cosmos  will  act
more like biological entities rather than moral civilized states.
In  saying this, I do not say all peoples of the Cosmos will  act
ruthlessly towards their neighbors, only some of them.
     On  Earth  we have nations that are great and  powerful  and
others  that are merely powerful. It is a dream  that  scientific
knowledge and technological power lead to moral enlightenment  in
a  nation,  but  we  know on Earth that  some  nations  can  have
enormous  wealth  and  scientific and  technological  power,  yet
commit unspeakable crimes and aggression against their own people
and   others.    Nazi  Germany  was  for  a   period   the   most
technologically advanced power on Earth, with ballistic missiles,
jet  fighter  planes,  and an active  program  to  build  nuclear
weapons.  No power on Earth could rival it for a period.  Germany
before this had been considered a center of theology and culture.
Yet  in  a  few years, Germany regressed  into  a  nightmare  and
committed unspeakable crimes against humanity.
     Technology  and morality do not go hand in hand on Earth  or
probably  anywhere else in the Cosmos.  One has only to  look  at
our own society to see this.  For some nations, technology merely
provides irresistible temptations to abuse other nations.
     Nor  does the fact that a people dwell among the stars  make
them moral and just.  We dwell on a star, and it sits among other
stars,  but  we  must constantly struggle with  ourselves  to  do
right,  and sometimes we fail at this.  Therefore, according  to
the  HHM  the Cosmos is as harsh and desperate a place as  it  is
beautiful.   The laws of biology dictate this, and  Earth  merely
reflects  it.  Morality and enlightenment must  struggle  against
criminality  and darkness in the Cosmos as they do on the  Earth,
and sometimes this struggle is armed.
     Given the preceding discussion, a likely scenario for war in
the Cosmos is as follows: (1) an advanced space power  encounters
a  less advanced power; (2) the more advanced power displays  its
power hoping to cow the less advanced power into submission;  (3)
if  this ploy succeeds, the advanced power subjugates the  lesser
power  without war; and (4) The subjugated people may  be  merely
enslaved  or  else exterminated and the planet settled  with  the
victorious  species.   Sun Tzu says "The best policy  is  to  use
strategy,  influence,  and  the  trend of  events  to  cause  the
adversary  to  summit  willingly." (Reference  17)   That  is,  a
military  victory  can be had at little cost by  first  achieving
psychological victory over the enemy.
     One  successful psychological ploy that was used with  great
success on Earth in analogous situations was to convince the less
advanced natives that the more advanced were gods.  This ploy was
used  by Cortez, who made ingenious use of the Quetzacotl  legend
in  his attack on the Aztec empire.  Cortez also used  calculated
displays  of  cannon  fire, horses,  and  other  technologies  to
convince the Aztec envoys that he possessed supernatural  powers.
Montezuma,  the  King  of the Aztecs  was  almost  hypnotized  or
"spooked" by the Spanish.  Finally, when the Aztecs realized  too
late  that  the  Spanish were just gold-hungry  flesh  and  blood
people like themselves, the people killed Montezuma for betraying
them  to  the  Spanish.  cortez by this time had  raised  up  the
Indian  nations  long enslaved by the Aztecs, and so  managed  to
conquer  an empire of millions with only 800 men.   Pizzaro  also
pulled  off such a conquest again by "spooking" the Inca  emperor
into believing he was divine.  So, a former pig farmer with a few
hundred men conquered another empire of millions.

     However, let us suppose that the less advanced power is very
tough  minded  and refuses to be cowed by  the  advanced  powers'
superior  technology.  Let us suppose also that the lesser  power
rejects  as psychological ploys the advanced power's attempts  to
claim  divinity, and that these attempts to attain  psychological
advantages merely harden the will of the less advanced people  to
fight.   In this case, two things could happen: (1) The  advanced
power will withdraw or decide to establish normal and  respectful
diplomatic  ties with the lesser power.  (2) The  advanced  power
may  choose  to  wage  war  on  the  less  advanced  power   when
psychological ploys used alone have failed.  Here the outcome  is
not nearly so predictable as one might imagine.
     War  between technological unequals is probably the norm  in
the  Cosmos  rather than the exception.  However,  as  on  Earth,
technology  is only one of many factors is war.  The factors  are
primarily:

     1.  Relative  numbers of military forces -- does  one  side
         have overwhelming numbers?
     2.  Moral  and  discipline  of the  forces  --  can  it  be
         maintained in the face of losses?
     3.  Length of supply lines -- can a large military effort be
         sustained for long by both sides?
     4.  Political unity of opposing power groups -- can one side
         exploit divisions in the other?
     5.  Technology  -- can the high tech of one side  be  easily
         countered by the low tech of the other?
     6.  Will  -- are the less advanced people  more  willing  to
         resist  than  the  more advanced are  willing  to  press
         attacks?
     7.  Other Powers -- will other powers stay out of the war or
         intervene on one side or another?
     8.  Which  side  chooses the Way --  one  side  or  neither?
         (Reference 18)

     As  was discovered by the United States in Vietnam  and  the
Russians in Afghanistan, technological superiority alone is not a
deciding  factor against adversaries who are  tenacious,  clever,
are willing to die rather than submit, who have high morale,  and
who  confront the advanced power on their home territory.   These
wars   also  showed  the  sensitivity  of  advanced   powers   to
casualties, even when the advanced power may not be known for its
concern for human life, as was the case with Russia.  One Russian
was  quoted  as  saying  "30,000 dead was  one  day's  losses  at
Stalingrad,   but  in  Afghanistan  it  seems  too  much."    The
difference  was  that 30,000 Germans died also and  the  Russians
were  fighting  for  their homes and  lives.   Death  on  foreign
hostile  territory,  far  from home, at the  hands  of  primitive
natives  is  especially grievous to  advanced  peoples,  because,
economically,  a trained member for their society is more  costly
to replace than a member of a more primitive society, especially,
if  he  must  be trained in the use of  high  tech  weaponry  and
transported   great  distances  onboard   expensive   transports.
therefore,  if  a less advanced society can  maintain  ferocious,
long-term resistance against an advanced aggressor operating  far
from  home,  with limited forces, the less  advanced  people  can
triumph.   the  more advanced people will simply  find  they  are
bogged down and taking losses in an unwinnable war far from home,
and they will leave.  In such a triumph, morale and, if possible,
religious  zeal  on  the part of the less advanced  people  is  a
decisive  factor.   I repeat, in a conflict where  a  technically
advanced  power is waging a war of aggression on a less  advanced
power,  the  morale  and  will of the lesser  power  is  what  is
decisive, not technology alone.  Sun Tzu, though he wrote of war,
as  also  a great moralist.  To him a key factor in  war  was  to
follow "the Way." (Reference 18)
.lm5
    "The  Way means humaneness and justice.  In ancient times,  a
    famous minister of state asked a political philosopher  about
    military  matters.   The  philosopher  said,  'Humanness  and
    justice  are the means to govern properly.   When  government
    is carried out properly, people feel close to the  leadership
    and think little of dying for it'."

    He also said: (Reference 19)

    "Those  who  use  arms will cultivate the Way  and  keep  the
    rules.   Thus,  they can govern in such a way as  to  prevail
    over the corrupt."

.lm0
"Those  who  use its superior technology to try and  oppress  and
destroy  less advanced neighbors does not know of the Way.   This
is true on Earth, and I think this is true throughout the Cosmos.
     If a people departs from the Way to oppress their neighbors,
then  neither the brilliance of their technology  and  intellect,
nor  all their clever words can disguise it.  Sadly, this  brings
us to the subject of the present situation regarding humanity and
some of its fellow peoples of the Cosmos and what forty years  of
E.T. contact have taught us.

--------- Continued in Rainbow part 2 ---------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: FILE: Whitley Strieber FAREWELL Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 91 01:11:12 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 431
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1844 alt.conspiracy:6735



I'm posting this full and complete text of Whitley Strieber's
last Communion Newsletter. This is his FAREWELL.

This text *is* copylefted and I have _not_ received permission
to publish here. It's being posted for informational purposes only.

------Begin included text -------------------------------------------




"The Communion Letter" - Farewell,  Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3,
No. 1.  Copyright 1991,  Wilson  and  Neff,  Inc.   Dora Ruffner,
Editor, PO Box 10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235.  Anne Strieber,
Executive Editor, 496 La Guardia Place, New York, NY 10012

=================================================================
============

FAREWELL, By Whitley Strieber.

     This is the last issue of The Communion Letter.  We have run
it for two years, and have had a wonderful time doing so.  But we
never intended to continue indefinitely.   Like the related books
and the Communion groups, it  had  a definite and finite purpose.
For the present, that  purpose  has  been  fulfilled.   Everybody
whose subscription still has  issues  to  run will be sent a cash
refund for the balance.  The letter ends its run in a state of
excellent financial health and  with  a robust subscription list,
so there will be no delay in returning money.
     The letter has been a tremendous success from the very first
issue, and I  would  like  to  thank  everybody  who  subscribed.
Because we had so  many  more  subscribers  than  expected,  back
issues are available only in limited quantities.
     Now I would like  to  address  the  question  of  why I have
terminated the letter.  The reason  is that I do not feel that it
is productive to  deal  with  the  visitor  question  any further
publicly until there is  something  more  definite known.  Should
events warrant, I will send out periodic communications, but they
will be in  letter  format,  will  be  free,  and will be sent to
everybody who has written me.
     The presence of UFO's, at  least,  has  already been proven.
The problem is not one of whether  or not they exist, but rather,
what they are.
     I view the continued refusal of the  scientific community to
address the issue as  slightly  daft,  but  I  understand it very
well.   I have gained the  friendship  of numerous scientists and
some government officials who  are  certain that our observations
and experiences represent a genuine  unknown.  To a man, however,
they are afraid to address it openly because of their fear of
public destruction in the press.   They are horrified at the idea
of being identified with the UFO community, whom they regard as a
kooky backwater plagued by the fuzzy thinking of losers with poor
academic credentials,  who  are  motivated  by  superstition  and
insane jealousies.
     The press and  the  UFO  community  stand  together  against
further progress in the field.   Until  organizations  like MUFON
and CUFOS disintegrate or  become  discredited,  and the press is
allowed  to  discover  that  there  are  people  with  strong and
respected credentials working on the subject, further progress is
unlikely.
     Before I sign off, I would like  to  address a few questions
that have been bothering me.  The  first is that of the Communion
groups.  Because of these groups,  I was falsely accused of being
a cult  leader.   In  fact,  the  groups  were  operating  as  an
alternative to a very nasty little cult run by people so
startlingly ignorant of what they are doing that they do not even
understand that they are brainwashing their victims.
     During the course of a  defamation  suit  I lodged against a
particularly harsh critic,  large  numbers of his research papers
were transmitted to me.  I was disgusted to discover that no bona
fide members of Communion groups had been extensively interviewed
by this man.  Instead, his primary  source of information was the
amateur hypnotists I had formed the Communion groups to fight!
     I was not attacked because  there  was any legitimate reason
to do so.  I was attacked because I was a large, publicly visible
target and could thus afford my attackers more publicly.
     The Communion groups  existed  for  two  reasons:  first, to
provide a social forum free  of  charge  to  interested  parties;
second, to offer an alternative  source  of support where one did
not need to by  hypnotized,  and  where  open-minded  questioning
replaced the looney certitudes  offered  by UFO fanatics.  I even
went so far as to require the group leaders to sign forms stating
that they would not charge  money,  and  that they would maintain
the integrity of the question in their meetings.
     I found it quite shocking  that  groups  formed  to combat a
cult would themselves  be  identified  as  cultic.  But the media
leaped to the breach, hungry as  it  always is to spread the lie,
and I became identified on  national  television as a cult leader
similar to Jim Jones.  Only when the  young man who had made this
accusation stated in publicly available  court papers that he did
not really believe it, did I  drop  my suit against him.  Because
of the notoriety, members of  UFO  cults and "reporters" began to
try to invade the Communion  groups.   For this reason, they were
canceled.  Because of this, witnesses wishing social contact with
others like themselves must be denied  the healthy alternative of
the Communion groups.   All  that  remains  available  is the UFO
junk, with the attendant risk of being made into a hypnotized
zombie.
     I would like now to move onto other subjects.  Since this is
my final statement on such  matters,  I  would like to deny a few
rumors.  The fact that I am not denying  all rumors does not mean
that those I ignore are true.   They  are simply too stupid to be
worthy of comment.

* I am not  a  government  agent.   There  is  some  truth to the
allegations that I have contact within  the U.S. military and the
government.  I will not deny this.   But all of my activities are
pointed in one direction: disclosure.

* I am not a skinflint.  The Communion  Foundation has given away
a lot of money, and I have tried hard  to be financially generous
in every way possible, and possess the records to prove it.  Even
Budd Hopkins has been generously treated, and I have the canceled
checks to prove this.

* The "white paper" Mr. Hopkins allegedly  produced about me is a
tissue of  intentional  distortions  designed  to portray me in a
falsely negative light.  But  his  apparent sending of this paper
to dozens of UFO investigators, in an effort to discredit me, was
effective.  Such people are eager to believe negative information
about those more successful  than  they.  Jealousy is an illness,
and it is highly  contagious,  and  the  UFO community is sick to
death with it.

* There exist no legitimate audio  tapes of me admitting to being
an  alien,  a  government   agent,   a  sexual  pervert,  or  the
camp-follower of little  grey  men  from  Zeta  Reticuli.  I have
never said anything of the  kind.   These  tapes are no doubt the
creations of people who have been  playing games in a sound room.
If you want to know what I think, read my books.

     Now that I have finished  with  that,  I  would like to tell
you, as clearly as I can, my  present  thinking on the subject of
visitors and related phenomena.
     First, I am certain  that  we  are  not  dealing  with alien
encounters as defined by the UFO community.  This is a deeper and
more subtle business.   The  Communion  Foundation  recorded over
three thousand narratives of  experience  out of the nearly forty
thousand I have so far received.  The documented ones were chosen
simply on the basis of the fullness  of the narrative, not on its
content.  Only  a  very  few  of  these  spontaneously  described
anything remotely  resembling  the  so-called  "typical abduction
experience" that has been  concocted  by  the UFO community.  And
these, for the most part, were  from  people who had already been
exposed  to  UFO  literature.    To  have  a  "typical  abduction
encounter," you must almost certainly  be first be exposed to UFO
stories and literature and/or  be  hypnotized  by an "expert" who
has himself been exposed to, or advocates, this belief system.
     Thus, I consider hypnosis to be almost  worthless, except in
cases where it is  administered  by  a  medical professional to a
relatively uncorrupted individual.   Hypnotism by UFO experts and
the psychologists who  support  them  does  not  open the door to
truth.  It opens the  door  to  fantasies  based  on  the  modern
folklore of the alien and the  flying  saucer  - and it opens the
door to fear.
     Most people who have had  the  visitor  experience  are  not
afraid; they are not angry.  They are perplexed.
     We carefully researched  some  of  the  most spectacular UFO
claims, and found many of them to be essentially fallacious.  For
example, the stories about alien bases hidden under the Archeluta
Mesa in New Mexico probably  derive  from twisted tellings of the
ghost stories and creation  myths  of the Jacarilla Apaches whose
reservation surrounds the mesa.
     Most of the stories about  crashed  flying  saucers are also
unsubstantiated.  Only one, the  Roswell  incident, stands out as
demonstrably strange.  I was  able  to do some research into this
affair which must remain  confidential,  but it convinced me that
the Air Force obtained, without  a  doubt, some material from the
desert north of Roswell, New Mexico, that it could not explain at
the time.  It would  be  interesting  to  see  if modern analysis
might reveal more about this material.  At the time, an elaborate
cover-up was instituted to  conceal  the  fact that the Air Force
did  not  know  what  it  had.   Since  the  cover-up  was  never
abandoned, it must still be  in  place.   I  can  assert with the
certainty of direct  personal  experience  that  elements of that
very complex social organism known as the U.S. government possess
some extremely strange information - at the very least - which is
being methodically concealed  not  only from the public, but from
the Congress as well.
     To keep  these  secrets,  elements  of  the  U.S.,  British,
Australian and  Brazilian  governments  have  all  at times taken
extraordinary measures.  U.S. government  agencies appear to have
engaged in the illegal  propagandizing  of the American people by
spreading so-called  "disinformation"  about  this subject.  From
the beginning, the agencies involved seem to have been willing to
blatantly break the law in  their  effort to protect the secrets.
They have  almost  certainly  failed  to  provide  Congress  with
information it deserves under the law.
     Everything I have ever done in regard  to the government has
been directed toward  the  goal  of  disclosure.   But  this is a
sensitive,  complicated  situation,  and  it  isn't  going  to be
changed overnight.  It has come  about  because the people within
the government who are  holding  the  secrets  ill understand the
nature of the issues involved.   They  think that they are hiding
the fact that  eerie  aliens  are  present,  that  these supposed
aliens engage in certain disturbing and enigmatic activities, and
that they cannot be controlled in any way.
     This is not a true  impression  of  the  situation.   If the
secret intelligence agencies  understood  what  they were dealing
with, they would see that the secrecy is meaningless.
     In my three books about the  visitor  experience, I tried to
maintain the position which  I  still  hold  today,  and which is
expressed  in  large  type  in  the  frontispiece  of  Communion:
"Instead of shunning the  darkness,  we can face straight into it
with an open mind.  When we do that, the unknown changes. Fearful
things  become  understandable  and  a  truth  is  suggested: the
enigmatic presence of the human mind winks back from the dark."
     Unfortunately,  this   position   did  not  please  the  UFO
believers or the media.  I do  not  accept  most UFO doctrine, at
least not as it is expressed by American believers.  The media is
even worse.  They  spent  three  years  trying  to  cast  me as a
"self-proclaimed  alien  abductee."   Almost  without  exception,
their approach to what I was trying to communicate was beyond the
stupid:  it  was  intentionally   irresponsible.   They  knew  my
position  but   chose   to   distort   it   in  the  interest  of
sensationalism.
     There is a very simple reason  that  we  have made so little
progress understanding UFOs and the  visitors.  We are a world in
the process of going blind: We are  blind to the existence of the
soul, and thus also to the ancient  and immensely conscious world
from which it emerges.
     Ironically, if aliens  are  here,  we  are not going to find
them in the sky. Our own minds  are  where we will find them, for
the mind is the door to  their  world  -  a more real, more true,
more alive world than ours.
     Now I would like to  approach,  in  an  oblique manner, some
ideas about the visitor experience, its origins and its nature.
     First, it is a natural  phenomenon.   The  profound truth of
this statement cannot  be  overemphasized.   The  moment you come
face to face with the visitors,  you  cannot fail to be struck by
the  fact  that  they  are  not  highly  contrived  technological
presences,  but  simple,   natural   creatures  -  almost  naked.
Witnesses  who  have  seen  them  up  close  and  remembered  the
encounter will often say things like,  "I thought he was a little
animal at first," or "if felt like part of me."  The same witness
might say both things, and be right  both times.     The visitors
are beings, natural  objects,  living  things  - at once separate
from us, yet part of us - and  they  are also a message.  I would
like now to address the content of  the message, insofar as I can
understand it.
     Our cultures have, as the ages have progressed, desensitized
us both to the soul and to our animal  nature.  They have made us
more and  more  viewers  and  less  and  less  doers.   About two
thousand years ago we began watching  plays that demonstrated the
acts of the Gods.  The trouble was,  these were inner dramas, and
externalizing them was a mistake.
     When religion ceased to  be  the  format  for  relationships
between man  and  nature  and  became  a  means  of  deifying our
internal yearnings and  conflicts,  we  began the long process of
going soul-blind.
     Even so, there is  a  sense  of  rightness  to  our  present
situation.  We are failing in  our  attempt to subjugate nature -
and that is as it should be.  Despite all the trouble that we are
to see, we will gain from  this  misadventure  we  call civilized
life.
     In the end, nature will drive  us  back  to the forest.  Our
assault on her will leave us profoundly wounded, but also full of
wisdom.  This is what we came out  of the forest to find: we seek
to know ourselves, and the only  way  to  do that is to plumb the
depths of our potential, both for good and for evil.
     By becoming animals again I do  not  mean to suggest that we
will grow fur and long teeth, but rather that we will become once
again "as lilies of the field,"  surrendering  our every material
need to nature's own provender.
     Won't we starve then?  We may never find the courage to seek
an answer to  this  question.   But  there  will  come a day when
surrender is forced upon us.           For a long time I wondered
why one individual  attracts  the  attention  of the visitors and
another does not.  Why would it be that one journalist came to my
cabin and had an  encounter,  and  another  did not?  Why would a
weak,  hysterical   fool   have   elaborate   contact,   while  a
well-educated, competent scientist would not?
     I found out why.  People who  have  encounters  share a deep
and very special kind of yearning.   This goes much deeper than a
surface desire for a better  life,  a  better political system, a
cleaner environment.  I think  that  few people experiencing this
yearning would be able to sense its  presence at all, except as a
vague feeling of loss sifting down from their dreams.
     The visitors are evolution at work.  In one sense they point
to the future, in another they  are  the  future.  They represent
higher mind preparing us for a  world  that  hasn't happened yet.
For example, the amazing performance of the devices we see in the
sky has given  rise  to  research  programs  devoted  to  plasmic
propulsion and anti-gravity.
     Our own future  thus  is  drawing  us  into  itself.  At the
moment  of  penultimate  cultural,   economic  and  environmental
crisis, mankind will  also  discover  the  secret  of gravity and
become able to propel himself  in  large  numbers deep, deep into
the body of the universe.
     This is why we have  been  seeing  flying  saucers since the
first moments  we  might  usefully  even  have  conceived of such
possibilities.  This is  why  the  display  themselves.   What is
greatest and best in us is calling us forth.
     Of course people with strong and fixed beliefs fear and hate
the very idea of all this.  The  strongest  believers  in western
culture   are   not   religionists,   they   are  the  scientific
fundamentalists.  In fact,  fundamentalism  of all kinds is not a
renewal of belief,  but  its  death  knell.    When  faith fails,
belief takes  its  place.   Faith  is  deep  and quiet; belief is
shallow and shrill.  The  existence  of scientific fundamentalism
means that scientists  are  already  aware  that  their system of
beliefs has failed.
     The visitors point to  the  transformation  of  belief  into
question, and lead us to the  discovery  of true faith, which has
nothing to  do  with  the  worship  of  gods  or  technology, and
everything to do with trusting the dark.         This they key to
whom they choose:  they  choose  the  ones  who  have  run out of
alternatives, who have  no  inner  choice  left  but to trust the
dark.  When a person who yearns  inwardly  for change reaches the
psychological breaking point,  the  visitors  may come in through
the cracks in that person's wall of  belief.  There are things at
large in the night of the soul; the visitors live there.
     Do not mistake me: I do  not  for  an  instant  ascribe this
awesome phenomenon to some  comprehensible  psychological origin,
nor condemn it to  living  only  in  the  fragile  atmosphere  of
thought.  I am speaking of  something  conscious  and intelligent
and richly alive, that uses the  human  mind as its path into the
physical universe.
     When  it  does  this  its  appearance   is  limited  by  our
expectations.  We expect aliens, so  aliens are what we see.  But
the actual content of visitor experience can no more be described
by the narrative of encounter than  a sphere's objective form can
be described by some Flatlander  observing  its transit through a
two-dimensional plane.
     Evolution begins, always, with  destruction.   So it is easy
to mistake the visitors for predators.  What is the secret of the
lamb lying down  with  the  lion?   The  lamb  sees that the full
expression of his life requires him to surrender to the lion.  To
fully express himself he must serve nature, and so also the lion.
     Life is not a Walt  Disney  cartoon.   The  lion is not evil
because he eats the lamb.   Rather,  he  is simply hungry, and he
has a right to his hunger.
     Our whole moral order is  flawed.   We do not understand the
requirements of the predator -  not  because we are prey, but for
the opposite reason: we  are  predators  ourselves,  which is the
real motive  for  so  much  of  the  destruction  and  unbalanced
behavior that rocks our lives.  We cannot accept what we are.
     Because we have no faith in  ourselves,  we have no faith in
nature, and we cannot bear the  discipline  of trusting the dark.
Faith is beyond religion.   It  has  to  do with loving one's own
sinews and secrets.  To  do  this  one  must  face the fact that,
inside ourselves, we are not  alone.   Every  dark thing that any
human being has ever done  involves  us all.  It is terribly hard
to face this.  One must not forget  that all the good in humanity
is there too, shining in the murk of our souls.
     When I realized that the  awful  look  I  kept seeing in the
eyes of the  visitors  actually  reflected  the  terror  of  this
situation, I understood that they  were part of us.  I was seeing
the reflection of my own soul.
     When we look at the  visitors,  we  look  at ourselves.  The
lights in the sky at once  deceive  and  inform: they suggest the
presence of aliens; they portend the  coming of man.  For man has
not yet been born.  Earth is  fat  with  flesh: she is aching for
the  days  of   harvest.    Our   aim,   both   collectively  and
individually, is to carry back into our timeless home a clear and
objective impression of what we found here.  We are the voyagers,
our bodies and brains are the spaceship.
     But do not imagine that our home is figurative or imaginary.
The lair of the visitors  is  real.   I  have  gone deep into it,
found that is has walls and  trees  and lights.  You can lie down
with them; indeed, you can even walk in places where new forms of
man are being invented.
     When  I  first   noticed   the   visitors,   I   would  have
"encounters."  Then these encounters focused into a relationship.
The visitors accepted the role  I  laid  out for them, and became
pilots for me in the  night.   They  took  me  into the shoals of
fear, and then left me to founder.  Instead I struggled, at least
at first.   I  have  learned  since  that  the  point  is  not to
subjugate   fear,   but    to   use   it   as   a   window   into
self-understanding.  Taste your fear,  taste your self.     Now I
see  them  as  a   higher   level   of   mind,  eager  to  spread
transformative potential in our  foundering  societies.   We have
burdened our concept of  the  soul  with  myth and folklore, have
made the dramas of the gods into entertainments.   Now it is time
to recover the soul's ancient  potency,  and  begin to form a new
relationship with the numinous.    We  must abandon myth, abandon
folklore, abandon culture,  abandon  all the engines of deceit by
which we have concealed  our  real  natures  from ourselves.  The
only way to proceed is to  accept  that the soul has an objective
reality and - at the present
moment - we haven't got the faintest idea what that means.
     I know what interests  the  visitors.   It  is  not love and
light; the heaving  of  desperate  minds  draws them.  The reason
that they first began to be visible  on a large-scale basis after
World War II had to do with the  tremendous  shocks that assailed
us then.  We began to live in  daily  terror  of the atomic bomb.
Simultaneously we discovered  that  human  beings were capable of
anything: men had engineered  the  Holocaust,  and men could most
certainly drop the bomb.
     It was no accident that the visitors  appeared in the middle
of America's  secret  weapons  testing  areas  and  close  by the
world's only  operational  atomic  bomber  wing in 1947: this was
where our desperation pointed them, this was the nexus of fear.
     But what are they?  I cannot answer  that question directly.
I know what they are, and yet... I don't.  To understand why this
would be so, it is necessary to  refer  to the indeterminate laws
that  govern  the  movement   and  nature  of  electrons  and  to
simultaneously consider the actual, physical nature of thought.
     Thought is an electronic event organized within the cells of
a brain and mediated by their chemical  condition.  Since thought
consists of electrons, it is in  its  essence as indeterminate as
they are.  And so are  the  visitors.   It  is perfectly possible
that they are from the future,  from  within  us and from another
world all at once.
     This  seems  like  a  hopeless  contradiction,  a  piece  of
intellectual   posturing   worthy   only  to  be  swept  away  by
hard-headed  engineers.    But   it's  not.   Unless  one  thinks
indeterminately about the  visitors,  one cannot think about them
usefully and correctly.
     I have gone deep  into  their  world.   The  more  subtle my
understanding of them has become,  the richer my relationship.  I
will go on, as deep as I can, daring  everything.  I will stop at
nothing, go into every  dark  place,  keep  on until my breath is
gone.  Thank you for traveling  with  me a little while.  Will we
meet again?

EOF

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rainbow Declaration Pt2 - Humans and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 91 01:05:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 938
Xref: ns-mx alt.activism:15044 alt.conspiracy:6736 alt.alien.visitors:1845




-------Rainbow Part 2 (conclusion) ------------------------------



         FORTY YEARS OF UFOLOGY:  WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?

     A  goal of this paper was to factor into our view  of  human
destiny  what  we have learned from forty years of  contact  with
E.T.s.   In  particular, what does the HHM do to unravel  for  us
what  is  reported  concerning the  last  forty  years.   Several
observations can be made.
     The  first and primary observation is that, at least on  the
surface everything appears well.  Humanity rules and occasionally
misrules,  the Earth.  No overt signs of E.T. contact  are  seen.
In   the   last  forty  years,  humanity,  itself,   has   become
spacefaring,  advanced  in power, and in some  ways,  has  gained
wisdom.   Except  for a popular preoccupation with  E.T.  contact
fantasies,  no outward sign of E.T. Earth dialogue  is  apparent.
The  second observation is that, like many situations  on  Earth,
much  is  being  concealed.  Concealment is  usually  a  sign  of
conflict.
     Sun Tzu wrote: (Reference 20)
.lm5
    "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.   Be
    extremely  mysterious,  even to the point  of  soundlessness.
    Thereby, you can be the directors of the opponent's fate."
.lm0
     The  groups of extraterrestrials who seem to have long  term
interests  here seem to be concealing their true  intentions  and
the governments of Earth are concealing their true posture toward
the extraterrestrials.
     To learn anything from the past forty years of Ufology,  one
must have a method of interpreting both the government's and  the
E.T.s' actions.  We have such a method in the HHM.  What does the
HHM  tell  that we have learned about the past forty  years?   It
tell us the following:

     1.  We  are not in a region of space controlled by  any  one
         E.T. nation; we know this because many species visit us.
     2.  Most E.T.s seem to have adopted a policy of benign  non-
         interference in Earth's affairs.
     3.  Most E.T.s are quite humanoid.
     4.  Three groups seem to be attempting to carry out  a  long
         term activity here.
         (a) Reticulians or "grays" -- A species reportedly  from
             Zeta Reticuli 36 light years from Earth.  (Reference
             16)   These  are  the  short,  big-eyed,  big-headed
             aliens.
         (b) The  Talls -- similar to the Reticulians  but  more
             humanoid, blonde, blue-eyed -- origin unknown.
         (c) Nordics -- very humanoid, Scandinavian appearance --
             star of origin unknown.

         It  must be stated that is is not clear to  what  extent
         these three species' intentions towards Earth coincide.
     5.  Some  E.T.  contact has  been  extremely  positive  and
         strongly suggests that we will one day become a part  of
         some community of cosmic peoples of like beliefs to  our
         own.
     6.  There  does not appear to be  any  Galactic  government
         protecting  primitive  planets  like  Earth  from   E.T.
         contact.
     7.  Some E.T.s appear to be quite hostile to humanity.

     This  last  point  is  an  unpleasant  and  difficult   one.
However,  it merely means the Cosmos is like the Earth,  and  you
live   on  Earth,  so  you  can  deal  with   this   possibility.
Unfortunately,  it appears that the E.T.s with the most  interest
in  Earth  are  also  the most hostile.  How  could  it   be  any
different if humanity is involved?


THE SECRET STAR WARS:  THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LAST FORTY YEARS

     It  is my analysis, based on the HHM, that  the  Reticulians
(or grays) are implacably hostile to humanity.  (figure 1)  As to
the  Reticulian  goal, there can be little doubt, for  they  have
come far, stayed long, suffered great losses, and expended  great
resources, yet they will not reveal it to us.  But, their actions
reveal  their  goal:  to have the Earth  for  their  own.   Their
actions  are not consistent with anything else.   Our  government
apparently  realized  this  at some point in  the  distant  past,
perhaps  as early as 1947.  The government has kept  this  secret
locked up in Dreamland with its captured discs.  It is my  belief
that the fact of Reticulian hostility is the actual great  secret
underlying  the  entire  government  cover-up  concerning   UFOs.
However, this truth can no longer be kept secret; it is  apparent
from both Reticulians' behaviors that are widely known in Ufology
and the government's reactions to them.  I would argue that while
it  may  have been useful to have kept this secret  in  the  past
(that is, the fear engendered by the knowledge of hostile  aliens
might have been more dangerous than the aliens themselves), it is
now  more dangerous to keep it secret, because secrecy is  now  a
hindrance to effective defense.
     Ufology  has withheld judgment for a long period  concerning
the  behavior of the Reticulians. This was justified because,  in
the  past,  data  was scanty and  unreliable.   We  have  avoided
judging the Reticulians' actions by human standards because  they
were  not human, and we like to withhold judgment even on  humans
until we have some basic level of knowledge about them.  We  also
have tended to place less credibility on reports of  Reticulians'
atrocities and hostile acts because they frighten us, and because
they  are  at  odds with our picture of E.T.s as  the  hoped  for
"space brothers,"  the angelic saviors of humanity.  However, the
truth  appears to be that the truly benevolent E.T. nations  want
little  to do with us, and that humanity has only God and  itself
to look to for salvation.
*****************************************************************
Omitted:  "Figure 1."; Text reads: The Hostile Reticulian.   Out
of numbers of people in our cosmic neighborhood, the  Reticulians
have  demonstrated  implacable hostility to humanity.   But  this
hostility is not irrational, we both want the Earth and only  one
can  have  it.  They must be, and will be, opposed by  all  means
necessary.
*****************************************************************
It appears our government has been involved in a Secret Star Wars
with the Reticulians.  This Star War is sometimes cold, sometimes
hot  and has been punctuated by cynical truces and  cease  fires,
but Star War is the best term for it.  Is this government posture
justified; I would argue, yes, absolutely.
     The  time  is  now  ripe for  Ufology  to  make  a  judgment
regarding  the behavior of the Reticulians and their cohorts.   I
give you my judgment: the emperor has no clothes, the Reticulians
and  their crimes are naked.  It is widely and reliably  reported
now that the Reticulians are engaged in horrifying behavior.
     1.  They abduct and terrorize people beginning  often  with
         children.  (Reference 21)
     2.  They mutilate cattle and leave them for their owners  to
         find.  (Reference 22)
     3.  Their breeding program is an abominable  crime  against
         humanity.  (Reference 23)
     4.  They kill people, only whether it is murder 1, 2, or  3,
         is debatable.  (Reference 24)
     5.  They invade our airspace and destroy our warplanes  and
         pilots sent to defend our airspace.  (Reference 25, 26)
     This  pattern  of behavior by the  Reticulians  indicates  a
complete disregard for human rights, life, or dignity.  Some have
said that those are crimes by human standards, but perhaps not by
Reticulian  standards.  I argue that this is Earth, and  humanity
and  its standards rule on Earth, so if they are crimes by  human
standards,  then as far as we are concerned, they are  crimes  by
any   standard.   I  further  argue  that   murder,   mutilation,
abduction,  and  hostile intrusion into a planet's  airspace  are
crimes on any planet.
     The  HHM gives an astonishing and horrifying  interpretation
of Reticulian behavior:

Reticulian Behavior     Human Parallel    Primary Meaning/Purpose

Abduction:              Kidnaping and     Terrorization,
                        Abduction         Domination

Sexual Procedure:       Rape/             Terrorization,
                        Molestation       Domination

Talk in Riddles to      Old Human         Psychological power
to Abductees:           Interrogation     plus maintaining
                        trick             emotional distance from
                                          victim

Tissue Sample:          To "cut"          Demonstrate power
                        someone

Animal/Human            Old human ploy    Terrorization --
Mutilation:                               frustrated expression
                                          of rage

Claims of               Cortez in         Psychological warfare
divinity and to         Mexico and        to induce surrender
have influenced         "I made you
history:                everything
                        you are
                        today"

Desire for Secrecy:     Mafia,            Disguise military
                        Terrorist         weakness
                        groups

     It  is  even reported that the Reticulians have  claimed  to
have invented Jesus Christ.  (Reference 27)  If this is what  the
Reticulians  have  claimed,  it  is  a  contemptible  lie.    The
Reticulians  by  their  actions  have  shown  themselves  to   be
completely  ignorant of Christ's teachings.  Even the  devil  can
quote  scripture, and appear as an angel of  light.   (References
28, 29)  This claim concerning Christ is in my opinion, again,  a
naked attempt to gain psychological domination over humanity.  As
awful  as  such  behavior is, it clearly  indicates  their  utter
disrespect  for  human religious beliefs and is  thus  clearly  a
warning.   For  Christians  this  makes  our  conflict  with  the
Reticulians particularly apparent and mortal.  For it is written.
.lm5
    I John 4:3

    "And  every spirit that confesses not that Jesus  Christ  is
    come  in the flesh is not of God and this is the  spirit  of
    the antichrist..."
.lm0
     To  a Christian, what could be a simpler  decision.   Either
the  Bible  or the Reticulian is lying, and the  Reticulians  are
commonly  reported to be liars about even petty things.   So,  it
would  not  surprise  me if the Reticulians soon  claim  to  have
invented  Moses,  the Ten Commandments, and  the  electric  light
bulb.  Ignore these claims.  Our conflict with the Reticulians is
a  mortal one in that we are dealing with a power that wishes  to
destroy  everything we regard as precious and holy in the  Earth.
In  my  view,  surrender  to  the  Reticulians  is  suicide   and
holocaust; it is unthinkable.
      It is obvious that, when analyzed by HHM, the  Reticulians'
actions have strong parallels in every record of human oppression
and terror.  The Reticulians resemble an Earthly terrorist  state
such  as Iran, Libya, North Korea, or the Mafia.  I  would  argue
that its strongest parallel is Nazi Germany, because of its utter
disregard  for  human values and its  abominable  crimes  against
humanity  seen  in its breeding program.  This  would  mean  that
humanity's  introduction  to  the Cosmos has  actually  become  a
confrontation   with  a  latter  day  Axis  alliance   with   the
Reticulians  playing  Nazi  Germany, and the  Talls  and  Nordics
playing the roles of Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan.  Like  the
Nazis, the Reticulians are bent on conquest.  There can be little
doubt as to their goal: to seize the Earth for themselves.

     This,  I would argue, is the real secret of the  past  forty
years,  not that E.Ts have come to Earth, but that hostile  E.T.s
have  come  to Earth.  In response, the government has  tried  to
lock  this terrible truth away from public awareness.   Like  the
publicly known Star Wars concept, it has a bizarre dual existence
as  the stuff of both tabloid headlines and the blackest  of  the
black programs.
     The  arrival  of this Reticulians Axis has  triggered  every
possible  defensive  action  by our government  and  other  world
governments,  and I think this is justified.  The government  has
particularly made every possible attempt to gain understanding of
Reticulians technology.  It has been reported that the government
has even entered into agreements with the Reticulians and allowed
them sanctuary on some military bases.  Why would a government do
such  a  thing  if  it believed the  Reticulians  were  vile  and
hostile?   They would do it because they must have knowledge,  as
Sun Tzu states: (Reference 30)
.lm5
    "A major military operation is a severe drain on the  nation,
    and  may be kept up for years in the struggle for  one  day's
    victory.   So  to fail to know the  conditions  of  opponents
    because  of  reluctance to give rewards for  intelligence  is
    extremely  inhumane,  uncharacteristic  of  a  true  military
    leader,  uncharacteristic of an assistant of the  government,
    uncharacteristic  of  a  victorious  military  leadership  to
    overcome others and achieve extraordinary accomplishments  is
    foreknowledge.
         Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and  spirits,
    cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation.
    It  must  be  obtained  from  people,  people  who  know  the
    conditions of the enemy."
.lm0
     So,  our government may have done such things.  This  covert
Star Wars involves espionage and counter espionage, and it is not
pleasing  to look upon.  However, the more vile and  hostile  the
Reticulians, the more necessary such dialogue with them  becomes.
In addition, the government would attempt to keep this  situation
secret  from  its  own people by whatever  means  possible.   The
government,  in a sense, has been trying to preserve  the  "Prime
Directive."   Unfortunately, this has required the government  to
lie  continually  to its people, among other things that  it  has
done.   Our government has, in general, done what governments  do
when  they  are  threatened with war by a  powerful  and  unknown
enemy.   Now,  it is becoming plain that this  situation  can  no
longer be kept secret.
     One  would immediately protest that if the  Reticulians  are
implacably hostile to humanity,  why don't they attack since they
are  so  powerful?   My first response is that many  of  us  have
enemies, but when they attack openly, it is usually a relief; for
the  most  part,  treachery  and intimidation  are  the  rule  in
conflicts between individuals and nations.  My second response is
that humanity has enormous military power on Earth's surface  and
in  its atmosphere, and the Reticulians are a space  power,  with
few forces available and far from home; so they are powerful  but
so are we.  They are more advanced, but they are not as  powerful
as  they want us to think.  My third response is that the  Cosmos
is  probably a complicated place, and these  complications  place
constraints  on  Reticulian actions just as  they  constrain  the
actions of Earth nations.
     What  can be done about this situation?  I would argue  that
much  can  be done and this situation is  neither  hopeless,  nor
beyond  us in Ufology from making a contribution.   However,  one
must not avoid the impact of this realization -- that humanity is
probably confronted with a powerful and merciless enemy.

           GOD, GUTS, AND GUNS AGAINST THE RETICULIANS

     For  me, the impact of the Secret Star Wars, the concept  of
the  Reticulians  as implacable enemies of humanity  and  of  our
government, brought me closer to God.  However, I went through  a
classic grief reaction.  First, there was fear and white-hot rage
alternating  with  denial and terrible grief.   then,  there  was
despair and nights of prayer.  Then, there was courage and  hope.
Finally,  there  was also resolve:  God is with humanity;  if  we
must fight the Reticulians, God will fight for us also.  I  would
argue that he already fights for us, and that the strength of His
arm was seen at Roswell, before anyone even knew we had an enemy.
(figure  2)  For there, in one stroke, a Reticulians' craft  fell
even  as  we celebrated the Fourth of July,  and  our  government
found  the  Reticulians'  craft  shattered  and  the  bodies   of
Reticulians scattered about as food for the buzzards and coyotes.
We  thus knew from the onset that the Reticulians were flesh  and
blood  and not invincible or infallible.  We also knew  they  had
crashed  while  spying on what was then one of  our  most  secret
defense  installations,  showing our  government  their  possible
hostile intent.  So, God has helped us from the beginning, before
we even knew we needed help.
     We  are much stronger militarily than we were in 1947.   The
human  race has never been more technologically advanced or  more
united than it is now.  I believe we are only a breakthrough away
from a unified field theory that will allow us to control gravity
with  electromagnetism.  When we achieve this we will be able  to
duplicate  much  of the Reticulians'  technology  and  eventually
improve on it.  I am myself working on such a theory, and I  know
many others are also working on it; may God help us in our  work.
Finally,  it  is  known  that  weapons  we  already  possess  are
effective  against the Reticulians and their ships.  Many of  the
reported  crashes  of alien ships were not accidents;  they  were
victories  in a secret war with a secret enemy.  Many  brave  men
have died already to defend their country and their people.   Let
us remember their sacrifice.
     So,  with  God's  help,  I  found  courage  and  resolve  to
fight  the  Reticulians and their Axis.  I see reason  for  grave
concern,  but I see reasons to be encouraged also.  We will  win.
We  will win, because God is with us, and we seek His  help.   We
will  win  because we are strong and brave and ready to  die,  if
necessary;  and  we will win because we have  already  shown  our
weapons are powerful against the Axis; and while they may rule in
space,  we  rule on Earth, and in its atmosphere.   We  will  win
because necessity is the mother of invention, and we do not  need
to duplicate Reticulians technology to render it useless to them.
So God, Guts, and Guns are our key allies in victory.

*****************************************************************
Omitted: "figure 2"; Text reads:
The evening of July 4, 1947, in a field near Roswell, New Mexico.
The  irony  of fate dictates, that as the Reticulians  and  their
craft  lay fallen and broken, the nation celebrates  Independence
Day.
*****************************************************************

     Much more could be said about this matter and will be  said;
however,  this  paper  is not about the  present  but  about  the
future.  So, let us now consider how what we have learned in  the
last forty years will impact our future.  In particular, what can
we in Ufology do to positively impact the human future, given our
knowledge of the past forty years.
     Concisely summarized:  The past forty years of Ufology  have
taught us that the Cosmos is like the Earth and that the dynamics
of  nations  in the Cosmos resembles the dynamics of  nations  on
Earth.   On Earth we have seen powerful advanced nations  try  to
oppress weak and less-advanced nations.  We now see a  repetition
of that struggle of nations in a vaster arena with the past forty
years being a struggle between two astonishingly powerful  groups
of  nations  in the Cosmos, humanity and the  Reticulians'  Axis.
There  are  apparently a cloud of other cosmic  nations,  "silent
watchers,"  also  monitoring these events.  So, we  have  learned
something, but what can we do with this knowledge?
     You in Ufology are the only group outside of the  government
that  has the slightest inkling of what the real human  situation
is.   I  have  spoken  of a problem: I will  now  tell  you  what
positive step you can do to help this situation.  The key concern
is that humanity's destiny, so far as it is under the control  of
flesh  and  blood,  is  in  its  own  hands.   So,  it  is  human
intentions,  not  the  intentions of the  Reticulians,  that  are
important.  So, what are your intentions?


IV  THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

     The Rainbow Declaration was written as an attempt to declare
what  the  people of the Earth, humanity,  should  agree  amongst
themselves  and what they should declare to their fellow  peoples
of the Cosmos as to their beliefs and intentions.  Its themes are
equality  and fellowship before God of all peoples of the  Cosmos
and  the basic rights of all peoples.  The prominent  mention  of
God  in  this document is wholly appropriate, I  believe;  and  I
cannot  conceive of a document discussing such basic  rights  and
truths  without  mention  of God.  If there  are  laws  that  are
universal,  then only God can establish them and command  respect
for  them.  If all people are part of a great family,  then  only
God  can  be its head.  I borrowed heavily from  great  works  of
human heritage and science fiction.  Such borrowings are intended
as acts of homage rather than plagiarism.
     The   Rainbow  Declaration  is  also  dialogue.   It  is   a
declaration to God that we recognize our place in the stars.   It
is  a  declaration to the government that we want  to  known  the
truth,  even if it hurts, and that we want the  extraterrestrials
to  be  dealt with in a unified front with the other  nations  of
Earth.   Finally,  it is a declaration to  the  extraterrestrials
themselves that we are ready for an open and equal dialogue  with
them,  that we expect the rights of all peoples to be  respected,
and  that  our  expansion into the Cosmos will not  be  at  their
expense.   In  particular, it will put the Reticulians'  Axis  on
notice that we view their conduct here as unacceptable.

                    THE DECLARATION ANALYZED

     The  Preamble to the Declaration is essentially a  statement
of  who  we  are as a people and our concerns as  people  of  how
precious  the Earth and its environment is to us.  I call for  an
end to slaughter of the whales, because I want all  victimization
of intelligent beings on Earth to stop; and the first step is  to
end our victimization of these intelligent, friendly creatures of
the sea, who were honored by special mention in Genesis as one  of
God's great creations.  (Reference 31)
     The first article states that relation between humanity  and
other  peoples  of the Cosmos should be open and  public.   there
should   be   no   secret  treaties   between   terrestrial   and
extraterrestrial  powers.  The document states that all of  these
relations should be handled through the General Secretary of  the
United Nations, actin in consultation with the Security  council,
and that the Security Council should ratify all agreements.
     This  may  strike  some of you as a  surrender  of  American
sovereignty to the United Nations, which many of you have a  poor
opinion  of.   However, the United States sits  on  the  Security
Council as a permanent member and has veto power over anything it
does  not  like.   (Reference 32)   Reportedly,  in  the  present
situation,  the United States is acting as an ambassador  to  the
Cosmos on humanity's behalf.  Considering all that has reportedly
transpired,  I  do  not think this reflects well on  us,  and  we
should  give  up  the  job.   The  United  Nations  is  a   human
organization and like humanity has many flaws and frailties,  but
the  United  States,  in  my opinion,  would  do  better  leading
humanity  as a loyal member of the United Nations than trying  to
pretend it speaks for humanity.  Much of humanity would  probably
resent  this deeply if they knew the United States were acting  n
this role.
     Article  two  begins by greeting our fellow peoples  of  the
Cosmos  and asking them to pay careful attention to the  list  of
basic  rights.  It also says that we think all peoples are  equal
in God's sight and this may be a revolutionary concept to some in
the  Cosmos.   Much  of  the  rest  of  the  document  is   self-
explanatory, except for the part about genetic code.
     The reference to genetic code deserves special  explanation.
It  was  decided  that this code must be  protected  because  the
genetic code of a people is an instruction book on how to live on
their  planet of Genesis and how to fight the many bacterial  and
viral  infections  found there.  Therefore, to  take  a  people's
genetic  code,  outside  of an open  scientific  exchange,  is  a
hostile   act  and  indicates  an  alien  power  is   considering
colonization of a planet with its own species.
     The final right is the right to assert and defend the rights
listed.   This  is not a fairy tale document; it was  written  in
recognition  that  some people, some nations, and  some  species,
understand only force.  Some in the Cosmos obviously believe that
might  makes right; this is not a new idea on Earth.   Many  have
believed  it in our history, but they were proved  wrong.   right
makes might, friends, and I have written The Rainbow  Declaration
that its truth might strengthen you.
     Finally, the Rainbow Declaration closes with the statements:
that  all  peoples  ought  to treat all  other  peoples  as  they
themselves desire to be treated, and that humanity's highest goal
is to join, as an equal partner, in the community of the  peoples
of the Cosmos.  The Rainbow Declaration is as follows:

                     THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

We, the people of Earth, do make this solemn Rainbow Declaration.
We Acknowledge our common childhood before the Creator, God,  and
Judge  of  all  the  Cosmos,  both  visible  and  invisible.   We
recognize  the planet Earth as our Planet of Genesis,  our  home,
and our hereditary treasure.  We pledge to keep and preserve  the
Earth  for  all humanity for all generations.  We call  upon  all
humanity to treat one another with kindness, justice, and  peace.
We call upon all humanity to work together to ease the effects of
hunger,  disease,  and  overpopulation.  Let  there  be  no  more
killing of the whales, great and small, and let humanity, and the
beauty of the Earth which is humanities.

ARTICLE One

In  true Unity there is strength and general benefit;  therefore,
on all matters concerning extraterrestrial peoples we shall be as
One.   We  recognize the office of the Secretary General  of  the
United  Nations,  acting  with  the advice  and  consent  of  the
Security  Council, as the sole representative of humanity in  all
dealings  with extraterrestrials.  All relations  and  agreements
will  be open and public, and all agreements must be ratified  by
the Security Council to be in force.

ARTICLE Two

To  our fellow peoples in the community of the Cosmos, we  extend
greetings; we recognize you as fellow children of the Creator  of
the Cosmos.  Please give careful consideration to our declaration
that it might serve as a basis for good relations.

Section One

We  hold  these truths to be self-evident, that all  peoples  are
created  equal  and  are  endowed by  the  Creator  with  certain
inalienable rights.

Section Two

The  right  of  Possession of their homeworld,  their  Planet  of
Genesis.  No one shall take any portion of their world from them.

Section Three

The  right of Sanctity of Planet of Genesis from alien  intrusion
or  interference.   No  alien visitation shall  occur  until  the
people realize their Unity and achieve space travel of their own;
this  is  the Prime Directive for all space-faring  peoples.   No
alien  spacecraft  shall  make close approach,  or  assume  close
orbit,  or  make  any landing, except openly and  by  consent  of
global authority.

Section Four

The  right of Possession of Genetic Code.  No alien shall take  a
people's  Genetic  Code  for any  use,  except  under  reciprocal
scientific exchange, negotiated openly by global authority.

Section Five

The  right to permanent occupation of all bodies  orbiting  their
Planet of Genesis of the sun of their Planet, which is their Star
of  Genesis,  and permanent authority over the  space  containing
these  bodies. No alien bases may be established  permanently  on
bodies or stations orbiting a Planet or Star of Genesis, but must
be  evacuated upon landing by the people of this Planet or  Star,
except  there  shall be negotiated a  treaty  granting  temporary
lease.

Section Six

The  right  of Freedom of Peaceful Navigation of Space  shall  be
enjoyed  by  all  peoples  except where  it  conflicts  with  the
Sanctity of Planet of Genesis.

Section Seven

The  right  of peoples to Assert and  Defend  the  aforementioned
rights  and  the right to give and receive  aid  consistent  with
These rights, when these rights shall be endangered.  In case  of
dispute, the burden of proof-of-innocence shall fall on those who
are  alien,  for it is the burden of the strong and  advanced  to
help preserve the rights of the weak and less advanced.

Final Article

We pledge to uphold these rights and principals in all  relations
with all peoples we shall encounter, whether we be aliens or they
in these encounters.  We declare that all peoples should seek  to
treat  all  other peoples as they themselves would desire  to  be
treated, and that all peoples of the Cosmos should seek  peaceful
and  mutually beneficial relations with each other.   We  declare
that it is our deepest desire that humanity might take its  place
as an honored and valuable member of the community of peoples  of
the Cosmos.

              OWNERSHIP OF THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

     The  Rainbow  Declaration was written by my hand, and  I  am
very proud of it; however, it does not belong to me.  It  belongs
to whomever embraces it and believes its truths and affirmations.
The  Declaration is, for this reason, not copyrighted and  anyone
may  reproduce or sell copies of it with my blessings.  It is  my
gift  to  humanity, because of humanity's faith and  courage  and
strength.   Perhaps  a  better declaration could  be  written;  I
encourage  anyone to try, but I desire, rather, that the  Rainbow
Declaration will be embraced by you for now, so that humanity can
move forward into its destiny.

              THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AS NECESSARY

     I believe the Rainbow Declaration, or some similar statement
of principles, is vital to the future of humanity.  Without  such
a document it will be harder for humanity to find the Way to  its
true  destiny.   The history of humanity is a  history  of  great
documents  that state transcendent principles.   These  documents
and declarations have served to light the Way of humanity and not
only articulated the consensus of the people but helped form it.
     I  therefore  urge  that the  Rainbow  Declaration  or  some
similar  declaration  be endorsed by the major  organizations  of
Ufology  and  from them to the Congress, and then to  the  United
Nations,  so  that all of humanity might come together  on  these
vital issues while we have time to discuss them objectively.
     Before  the future can occur, it must be imagined.  This  is
self-actualization.  Let us imagine and proclaim for ourselves  a
future  where  humanity is a light to the Cosmos, rather  than  a
blot  upon  it  or a victim of it.  Let it  be  that  when  other
peoples  of  the Cosmos think of us they imagine  a  "Rainbow  of
Light."  Let us look into the future.

V  ADVICE TO A YOUNG SPECIES

     You  are  a  young vigorous species and new  to  the  cosmic
scene.  You are strong and full of promise.  Here is some  advice
for you.

     (1)  Trust in God, Guts, and Guns to preserve you among  the
stars.

     (2)  Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

     (3)  Do justly to all people and preserve the family of life
on all worlds.

     (4)  Never, never give in to bully boys with fancy toys.

     (5)  Talk softly, but always carry a big stick.

     (6)  A people becomes great because of what it loves --  not
because of what it hates.

     (7)   Boldly go where no one has gone before, and seek  your
kindred and your destiny among the stars.

VI  SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

     I have tried to convey to you my understanding of the  human
situation and the destiny o humanity.  I hope I have succeeded in
causing you to think in new ways about the past, the present, and
the future.
     I  have  spoken to you of the future and of an  increase  of
knowledge.  I have spoken of the day when Ufology as we know  it,
will pass away and will become exoanthropology, the  outstretched
hand  of  humanity  to other  peoples.   For  Ufology  represents
knowledge  in part, and when knowledge that is whole comes,  that
which  is  in  part must pass away.   Exoanthropology  will  then
become the forefront of humanity reaching out to other beings  in
the Cosmos.
     I  have told you we are most likely involved in  a  dialogue
with  other people of the Cosmos.  I think that if this is  done,
our  long journey to reach humanity's destiny will begin  on  the
right path and with the right guide.
     Life on Earth is sometimes harsh and brutal.  Good does  not
survive  or triumph on eArth merely because it exists.   It  must
continually  struggle.   I see no reason to believe life  in  the
Cosmos should be any different.
     I see on Earth the triumph of good, Goodliness, justice, and
democracy,  but  only  after  a long  and  bitter  struggle  that
sometimes looked hopeless.  Earth is part of the Cosmos -- not an
anomaly  of it -- and good triumphs here.  It must  also  triumph
elsewhere.
     It is possible that Mars holds the same drama recorded there
as  we see on Earth, but this drama ended tragically  there.   If
this is the case, let us never forget what Mars teaches us.
     Our participation in the dialogue of the Cosmos tells us the
same  message.  I think there is much good in the Cosmos as  well
as  evil; we know this from the reports of  friendly,  respectful
contacts we have heard, and we know it from the good we see  here
on  our  own  world and in our own people.  This is  how  I  know
things will be well in the end.
     However, if we are to achieve this good, we must strive  for
it,k  and  we  must declare our allegiance to  it.   We  must  be
prepared for struggle to ensure the triumph of good.  to see  our
true  path, we must have open eyes and minds.  We must  be  brave
and  force  ourselves  to  comprehend what  we  do  not  want  to
comprehend,  but which is true and must be accepted.   Only  then
can our light truly shine in the Cosmos.
     I tell you again that based on my analyses, the  Reticulians
and  their Axis allies mean to destroy humanity and possess  this
planet  for  themselves.  The character, depth, and  duration  of
their  activities  here can indicate nothing else.  You  must  be
prepared  to  use  any  means necessary  to  stop  them  in  this
intention:  to surrender is death -- to fight them is life.
     I  say further that if you are not prepared to  accept  this
sad  truth, even as a possibility, then you are not really  ready
to  know  the truth about the last forty years.   I  believe  our
government  can no longer keep this Star Wars Secret any  longer;
to  fight the Reticulians will require a level of  resources  and
public sacrifice no secret program can ask.  To gain victory over
the  Reticulians,  mobilization,  not secrecy,  must  become  the
government's first priority.  The terrible truth must be let  out
to be confronted by the government and ourselves and all of Earth
in  the broad daylight.  It is only then that this threat can  be
overcome.   You  have a role to play in this  conflict.   I  have
given you the Rainbow Declaration.  It is a powerful weapon;  use
it.

     I  believe, with God's help, humanity is strong enough,  and
brave  enough,  and clever enough, to triumph  in  this  conflict
which  we  did  not  begin.  The Reticulians  may  be  a  Goliath
technologically,  but  morally and ethically, they  are  pygmies;
this is the root of their defeat.
     You  may  see in the Reticulians an  ancient  and  brilliant
race; I see a forlorn and empty people, fallen and corrupted from
the state wherein they developed the technology they now possess,
debasing  themselves on the Earth, victimizing the  helpless  and
crudely terrorizing the defenseless.  Their actions reveal  their
weaknesses -- as it is said "what you are shouts so loud I cannot
hear what you are saying."
     The fact that a nation should come to us from another  star,
riding  in  vessels  of  brilliant  technology  and  yet   commit
unspeakable  crimes here is shocking; yet it is quite  consistent
with our understanding of elemental evil from the ancient  books.
It  is  curious that Reticuli means "net," and the  net  is  used
throughout  the Bible as a symbol of evil, misfortune,  and  also
testing.  As it is written in Ecclesiastes 9:11:

         "I  returned and saw under the Sun that the race is  not
         to  the swift nor the battle to the strong, neither  yet
         bread   to   the  wise,  nor  yet  riches  to   men   of
         understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but  time
         and chance happened to the all.
         "For a man knoweth not his time; as the fishes are taken
         in  an  evil net and as the birds that are caught  in  a
         snare;  so are the sons of man snared in an  evil  time,
         when it falleth suddenly upon them."
     We  also  see the net used as symbol of testing  in  Matthew
13:01  and in the last, gentle moment of John's record of  Jesus,
(Reference 33) as perhaps an allegory of a testing of the nations
of Earth, which like the fish netted in the story number  roughly
150.  So, perhaps someone who has known this all would occur  has
left  these  mysterious symbols of this knowledge.   So,  let  us
seek  the Way and the truth and the light, and oppose  evil  with
all our might.
     The Reticulians and their Axis do not know the Way; if  they
did, they would not do the things they have done here.  As it  is
written,  "by their fruits you shall know them."  (Reference  34)
So comfort yourselves in God and in the brave heritage of  Earth.
Perhaps a great storm comes, but all is calm now, and after forty
years  of the Reticulians's attempts to dominate here, the  Earth
still stands, and humanity still stands, more brilliant and  more
powerful than ever before.  So, let us be of good courage; if the
Reticulians  are  here  to destroy us, then  they  are  obviously
having  a difficult time.  For Sun Tzu instructs us:   (Reference
35)

         "There  fore  I have heard of military  operations  that
         were  clumsy, but swift, but I have never seen one  that
         was  skillful  and  lasted a long  time.   It  is  never
         beneficial  to  a nation to have  a  military  operation
         continue a long time."

     If  it  is so, and I suspect it is, our  government,  rather
than being a villain, is actually a hero in many ways as are many
of  our  abductees, who have resisted the terror tactics  of  the
Reticulians.   It is mainly the government that has  opposed  the
Reticulians  for forty years.  Let us remember also that  if  the
Secret  Star  Wars scenario is true, then many brave men  of  our
nation  and many other nations have died fighting in a  war  that
few even guessed existed, their loved ones never knowing why they
died or how.  This same government made up of men and women  like
ourselves and prone to the same mistakes, has struggled  mightily
to  both hold the Reticulians' Axis at bay and at the  same  time
carry on a dialogue with them to try and gain desperately  needed
knowledge of their technology.  If this is so, then it is  little
wonder  that the truth has been hidden and why those who knew  it
have  kept this truth with such determined secrecy.  For  no  one
can  keep a secret like a man who believes he holds  truths  that
will  devastate  those whom he loves.  So, let us not  judge  our
government  nor condemn them for the mistakes they may have  made
in  this struggle.  I have not walked in their shoes and  neither
have you, so let us stand with them.

                             SUMMARY

         In summary, I have stressed three main points:

              (1)  That it is the destiny of humanity to find its
              greatness and its kindred among the stars.

              (2)   The  humanity is prepared  for  this  destiny
              because the Earth is a microcosm of the Cosmos  and
              its people, with the dynamics between people in the
              Cosmos resembling the dynamics of nations on Earth.

              (3)  That in order to find the Way to its  destiny,
              humanity  must  make  a  document  similar  to  the
              Rainbow  Declaration  its creed and guide.   It  is
              only  in this way that humanity can find the  right
              Way to its true destiny in the stars.

     Finally, trust in God, for He made the Cosmos both seen  and
unseen  and  all it contains.  Surely He has  helped  us  already
against the dangers of the Cosmos.  But He has also allowed these
dangers  to come upon us for His own mysterious reasons.  Let  us
not  disappoint  him  in our dealing  with  these  dangers.   God
delights in courage and bravery.  Be people of faith, like it  is
written,  who  "turned  to  fight  the  armies  of  the   aliens.
(Reference  36)   Joyfully  go  forth to  seek  the  wonders  and
challenges that lay beyond the present and which are our destiny.
So   humanity,   beloved  children  of  Earth,  reach   for   the
stars...boldly go...
                           REFERENCES

1.  John  E.  Brandenburg, MUFON UFO  Journal,  p.  15,  October
    (1989).

2.  T. Walter Wallbank, Alistair M. Taylor, and Nels M.  Bailey,
    Civilization  Past  and Present 3rd Edition,  p.  14,  Scott,
    Foreman, and Company, Glenview, Illinois (1967).

3.  Preston  Cloud,  Oasis in Space, p.  402,  W.W.  Norton  and
    Company, New York (1988).

4.  Whitley Streiber, Transformation:  The Breakthrough,  p.  10,
Beech Tree Books, William Morrow, New York (1988).

5.  Ananda Sirisena, Beyond Science, U.K.  (out of print).

6.  Carl G. Jung et al, Man and His Symbols, p.55, Doubleday  and
    Company, New York (1964).

7.  James  Strong,  The Exhaustive  Concordance  of  the  Bible,
    p.1189, Abington Press, New York, Copyright 1890.

8.  Timothy Good, Above Top Secret, P. 293, William  Morrow  and
    Company, Inc., New York (1988).

9.  Jane Goodall, The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior,
    p. 529, The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, London
    (1986).

10. Robert  T.  Bakker,  The  Dinosaur  Heresies:  New  Theories
    Unlocking The Mystery of the Dinosaurs and Their  Extinction,
    p. 371, William Morrow and Company, New York (1986).

11. Civilization Past and Present, p. 16.

12. Carl Sagan and Iosef S. Shkolovskii, Intelligent Life in  The
    Universe, Holden Day, San Francisco (1960).

13. L.S.  Stavrianos, The World Since 1500,  A  Global  History,
    Prentice Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, N.J. (1971).

14. Carl Von Clausewitz, On War, p. 119, Penguin  Books,  London
    (1968).

15. Sun Tzu, translation by Thomas Cleary, The Art of War, p. 41,
    Shambhala, Boston, and Shaftsbury (1968).

16. Terence  Dickenson,  "The Zeta Reticuli  Incident,"   p.  7,
    Astromedia   Corp.   (publishers   of   Astronomy   Magazine)
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin (1976).

17. The Art of War, p. 67.

18. Ibid. p. 43.

19. Ibid. p. 91.

20. Ibid. p. 104.

21. "Transformation: The Breakthrough," p. 94.

22. Linda  Moulton  Howe,  An Alien  Harvest,  p.  355,  Pioneer
    Printing, Cheyenne, Wyoming (1989).

23. Budd Hopkins, Intruders: The Incredible Visitations At Copely
    Woods, p. 118, Ballentine Books, New York (1987)

24. Jacques  F. Vallee, MUFON 1989 International  UFO  Symposium
    Proceedings, p. 32.

25. Jorge Martin, MUFON UFO Journal, p. 20, January 1990.

26. Above Top Secret, p. 273.

27. John Lear, Private Communication.

28. The Bible, Luke 4:9-12.

29. The Bible, II Corinthians 11:14.

30. The Art of War, p. 168.

31. The Bible, Genesis 1:21.

32. John A. Garraty, The American Nation, p. 777, Harper and  Row
    Publishers, New York (1975).

33. The Bible, John 21:6-11.

34. The Bible, Matthew 7:20.

35. The Art of War, p. 58.

36. The Bible, Hebrews 11:34.

              DISCLAIMER BY THE MUTUAL UFO NETWORK

     This  article is based upon compiled material researched  by
John  E.  Brandenburg,  Ph.D.  from  numerous  sources  per   the
references  indicated at the end of his paper.   Contingent  upon
his study and research into this vitally important problem,  this
is  his  personal  scenario, evaluation and  predictions  to  the
mystery  behind  the alien/entities conflict and  their  possible
intentions for the people of the planet Earth.  Some readers  may
consider  that his entire scenario is nothing more  then  science
fiction relating to the present and future.
     Historical   events   and  the  Bible  support   the   past.
Historians remind us that we should heed the past with a jaundice
and   educated  eye,  because  experience  gained  and   mistakes
committed  provide the wisdom for future decisions in  our  lives
and  that of our worldly constituents.  We must never lose  sight
of the fact that yesterdays science fiction is tomorrows  reality
--Buck  Rogers  yesterday  and NASA space  travel  today.   As  a
physicist,   Dr.   Brandenburg,  has   presented   his   personal
explanation  and  forecast for the future as it  relates  to  the
visitation  of extraterrestrial entities to the planet Earth  and
the serious implications to mankind of their apparent intent.
     The  theme of the 1990 symposium proceedings is  "UFOs:  The
Impact  of E.T. Contact Upon Society."  This paper has  been  Dr.
Brandenburg's scholarly attempt to address the theme as he  views
today  and  the  subsequent tomorrows  within  the  near  future.
Conservative  Ufologists  may  attribute  the  majority  of   his
predictions  to  science  fiction, whereas  thinking  people  and
futurists, conceivably, will incorporate his recommendations into
their  future  planning  in order to  sustain  the  freedoms  and
lifestyle  that we have grown to appreciate.  If his scenario  as
forecast  is  true  and becomes a reality, all of  us  should  be
vitally concerned for our future and well being.
     Trying  not  to be repetitious, I must  reiterate  that  the
disclaimer on the inside cover of the proceedings applies to  Dr.
Brandenburg's  paper, as well as to all other  published  papers.
It is surprising to learn how few people read the disclaimer  and
automatically  assume  that John is speaking for the  Mutual  UFO
Network.   Dr.  Brandenburg  is speaking for himself  on  a  very
controversial issue that deserves to be exposed, heard and read.

                                   Walter H. Andrus, Jr.
                                   MUFON International Director
                                   and Proceedings Editor

PARANET FILE NAME:  RAINBOW.DEC

EOF

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Communion Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 91 16:41:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

fyi..those authors include their addresses, but they do not write -back-
from my experience; they do not send you mail about their new books or
changes of heart. in fact, i do not know WHY they put their addresses in
their books. probably just so that after you write them, you can sit and
wonder daily how long til the helicopters will fly over YOUR house.


--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: FILE: The Meier Case & Its Spirituality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Aug 91 01:15:27 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 532
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1847 alt.conspiracy:6737





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



                                 UFO CONTACTEE
                       The Meier Case & Its Spirituality

                             By James W. Deardorff


 Jim Deardorff is a retired professor (emeritus) from the Department of
 Atmospheric Sciences at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon, a
 former senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in
 Boulder, Colorado, and a fellow of both the American Association for the
 Advancement of Science.
 In the 1980s his interest shifted towards study of the UFO phenomenon, and in
 1986 he retired early in order to study the Meier case and its implications.
 Since then, he has devoted nearly full time twords becoming a New Testament
 scholar in order to better investigate a document discussed in this article:
 the Talmud Jmmanuel.  His upcoming book on the subject, Celestial Teachings:
 The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus) will be available
 this year from Blue Water Publishing.  (See resource list following article.)

                                    * * * *

 Among those who investigate UFO cases, the Meier case is well known and needs
 no introduction.  Among others, if it is known at all it is most likely
 because of the book Light Years by Gary Kinder, which became available to
 most bookstores in 1987.
 Eduard Meier is a 52-year-old Swiss citizen who reported that his main series
 of UFO contacts commenced in 1975 from human-looking beings; they told him
 they came from the Pleiades in certain UFO-like craft which they call
 beamships.  For the Cherokees, Navahos, and Incas, who claim to be decended
 from sky-gods who came from the Pleiades, this possibility might not seem too
 surprising.
 From 1975 until 1978, Meier was contacted by one of several Pleiadeans,
usually through mental telepathy, in order to arrange a time, usually late at
night, to have face-to-face contact meetings.  These meetings occurred about
once every ten days, on the average, but only after Meier had successfully
reached the contact point unaccompanied by others.  These contacts were held
in the hills several miles southeast of Zurich, with the contact discussions
on most occasions taking place right in the Pleiadean's beamship.  Meier's
primary contactor was a Pleiadean woman who gave her name as Semjase.  The
topics of the conversations raged all over, from small talk to science and
history to spirituality.  After the first several contacts, during which
Semjase had much to tell Meier about why he had been selected, he was allowed
to ask her numerous questions.
 Interspersed with these contacts, the Pleiadeans supplied Meier with 19
daytime occasions, in 1975 and 1976 and again 1981, on which he could
photograph from one to four of their space craft at a time.  This was for
support of the reality of his contacts when describing them to others.  As a
result, he ended up with a collection of over 500 color photographs of their
craft hovering both near and far, and sometimes partially eclipsed by branches
of a foreground tree.  On six of these occasions he also had an 8mm movie
camera along with him with which he obtained movie-film sequences.  All this
was far too much for most ufologists who learned of it; first the European UFO
organizations and then the American ones, by the late 1970s and early 1980s,
roundly rejected the case, declaring it must be a hoax.

 It was an American investigative team headed by Wendelle Stevens, a retired
Air Force colonel, which looked into the case in greatest detail, from 1977
on.  Stevens and his associates found all kinds of evidence of genuineness in
the photographs, and no evidence that a hoax had been commited.  They could
find no means available by which Meier could have faked the objects in the
photos (which in many instances could not possibly have been small models
close to the camera, as we shall see); nor could they find any means by which
Meier could have faked the photos themselves, and no financial means by which
he could have paid others to achieve these ends.  There are also some two
dozen secondary witnesses who support the authenticity of the case -- people
who, for example, saw UFO lights at night or dusk just before or after Meier
attended a contact meeting, and others who photographed peculiar circular
areas of grass depressed into a counterclockwise swirling pattern, on the day
after a contact meeting, at spots where Meier reported Semjase's beamship had
hovered close to the ground.  (The grass would continue to grow out
horizontally for weeks afterward, rather than growing vertically or dying.)
 There are four named witnesses who saw Meier "materialize" once in their
midst just after a contact meeting, and one of them witnessed the same on a
second occasion.  According to Meier, this was done through the use of
Pleiadean technology, when the beamship was hovering invisibly nearby.

 The first book to support the case, written by Lee and Brit Elders, and Tom
 Welch -- members of Stevens' investigative team -- appeared in 1979 and was
 like an annotated photo-album.  In addition to large blow-ups of many of the
 color photos, UFO...  Contact from the Pleiades, Vol. 1, included some
 quotations of what Semjase and other Pleiadeans had told Meier.  In 1983 they
 came out with Vol. 2.  In between, Stevens authored his own book on the case
 giving voluminous details -- a book now out in print, as are Vols. 1 and 2.
 One of Meier's photos, the "sun-glint" photo, is shown above right (not
available for this article, please refer to "UFO fro the Pleiades, by W.
Stevens," page 436, picture #174) .  According to Stevens' data, the photo was
centered twords the south west, so that the setting sun, on March 29th, 1976,
would have been off to the right of the photo.  The foreground is in the
shade, but golden rays from the sun are clearly visible in the original color
photograph, reflecting off the hovering object's upper right side in two
streams extending down across the object's facing underside.  Since the tree
which is apparently in front of the object is in the shade, along with the
rest of the foreground, the object must have been somewhat more distant
in order to have intercepted the last rays of light from the sun.  It must
then have had a diameter close to what Semjase told Meier -- about 23 feet.
The tree could not have been a model, since Stevens has a picture of it taken
a year and a half later when it was in leaf.
 Another point of reality in this photo is that the reflected golden rays,
made visible by the smog often present over much of Europe and especially just
east of Zurich, should not have been visible if the object had been a small
model up close to the camera, even if the foreground had been illuminated by
the sun.  There would not then have been enough viewing distance through the
sun's rays to render them visible, unless the smog had been do dense that the
hills in the distance would have been obscured.
 The second photo shown (opposite page, top left [not available for this
article, please refer to "UFO from the Pleiades," page 383, picture #66]) is
from a series in which the beamship posed on various sides of a fir tree.  Two
professors of the forestry at Oregon State University to whom I showed some of
these photos had no difficulty identifying the tree as a mature abies alba
(European silver fir).  Hence it could not have been a model tree, with a
model UFO attached.  Soon after Meier took that series of photos, the tree top
turned brown, as often been noticed on other instances when the UFO came too
close to some vegetation.  Still later, the tree disappeared, and when Meier
quizzed Semjase about this, he was told that they had "changed its time."
Thus, that the tree no longer exists in the here-and-now as continuing
evidence by which the UFO's diameter might be judged.  Supporters of the Meier
case can look upon this as an indication that these Pleiadeans feel a
responsibility tword living things with which they interact, while detractors
ignore the reality indicated by these photos because they feel that it should
not be possible for any alien civilization, no matter how far advanced over
us, to perform such an act.
 The more photographs Meier accumulated, and the more his experiences with the
Pleiadeans came to the attention of ufologists, the more incredible his case
appeared to them.  It became evident that if the case were genuine, it would
mean that these alleged extraterrestrials, or ETs and those aliens responsible
for more "ordinary" UFO sightings worldwide, presently have a covert strategy
of dealing with us -- one which never provides enough evidence to satisfy
scientists and skeptics, but nevertheless lets their presence and some of
their capabilities be known to others who are able to accept their potential
reality.  If they have such a strategy, it would mean that such ETs are more
experienced than we, are at least as smart or smarter, and have some sort of
ethical code designed not to send our civilization into a sudden culture
shock.  Such conclusions are not yet acceptable to most ufologists, hence very
few of them pursued the case far enough to learn what it was the Pleiadeans
had told Meier.  Of those who did, some were offended to learn that the
Pleiadeans espouse a spiritual philosophy which is largely at odds with Judeo-
Christian concepts.  This only fueled their hostility twords the case.

 It was early in his life that Meier was first contacted, via telepathy, by a
Pleiadean male.  But in his twenties his contacts were taken over by a female
who said her race was a close collaborator with the Pleiadeans, and from
another universe.  Only in the last couple of decades have some scientists
postulated the existence of multiple universes.  However, the thought that
there could ever be any communication or travel between universes is entirely
unacceptable by today's science.  The thought that any one human could be
selected out for such contact is equally unacceptable.
 It has been found that many of these abduction victims had been subject to
recurring UFO incidents, often dating back to childhood, so that it is now
becoming evident to most ufologists that ETs do single out particular people
upon whom they wish to experiment, or with whom they wish to communicate.
Still, if certain subjects are supplied with extensive messages from the ETs,
while not being treated as traumatically as are the abductees, they are
considered to be frauds unworthy of study by the UFO organizations.  Hence,
the contactees, like Meier, remain mostly ignored.
 During some of Meier's early ET experiences, in the 1950s and 1960s, he was
urged to learn all he could, through first-hand experience, about Earth's
various religions.  This he did in travels to India and the Mideast, and by
the mid-1970s he was prepared for the spiritual philosophy to which the
Pleiadeans educated him.  It is a philosophy emphasizing the immortality of
the individual spirit or soul, and its purpose in life of learning -- learning
even when it means making mistakes and learning from the mistakes.  The
learning goes on in successive lifetimes, or reincarnations, over which time
the soul gradually evolves and accumulates memories and knowledge normally
unavailable to us except as feelings of conscience.  Their philosophy also
involves living in harmony with nature, avoiding stripping a hospitable planet
of its resources, avoiding pollution of the environment and over-population,
refraining from nuclear industries and armaments, and avoiding excesses and
extremes.  They stress the holistic approach, and the bringing together of
logical reasoning and physic power.  Needless to say, these Pleiadeans take a
dim view of the adverse treatment by governments and institutions of Earth's
peoples and environment.

 Now, all of this represents concepts common to many other ET contactees'
messages, concepts common to the New Age movement, and concepts common to the
Amerindian heritage.  Partly for this very reason, ufologists have tended to
reject it all as too banal to be worth study.  They can also point to various
inconsistencies between different messages allegedly stemming from ETs, and to
apparent absurdities within some of the messages, as reasons to dismiss all
contactees.  Instead of studying the communications openly to attempt to learn
why they may possess certain puzzling aspects, ufologists reject the messages
by assuming that if they contain anything other than the truth as 20th century
science knows it, the messages must represent hoaxes or the result of
misguided imaginations.  One reason for this behavior is that if they treat
these messages seriously, they fear ridicule from scientists whom they are
trying to woo into the field of ufology.  They greatly fear the possibility of
being taken in by some giant hoax, even if they cannot begin to explain how
such a hoax could have been carried out.  And they fear the criticism of
scientists sympathetic to CSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation
of Claims of the Paranormal) if they adopt a stance that the claims of any
genuine contactees ought to involve aspects of an advanced technology totally
beyond our understanding.

 The Meier case stands out from all the other contactee cases and their
messages, however, in being the only one supplied with very extensive
photographic evidence in support of its overall reality.  Hence the fear of
being taken by a hoax is greatest of all for this case.  Yet, interspersed in
Meier's evidence are ambiguities and unexplained oddities which can keep
skeptics satisfied that their criticisms are justified.  This would again seem
to be part of an ET strategy, if the ETs possess a level of ethics which
forbids forcing their views upon the majority of a planet's population.
Meier's contact notes, as well as many other contactees' messages, do profess
this philosophy of non-interference on a societal level.  The strategy will su
cceed as long as skeptics and scientists insist that all of a UFO witness's
testimony and all of a contactee's evidence must be proven genuine beyond any
reasonable doubt; failing this, the witness is declared mistaken and the UFO
contactee guilty of a hoax or hallucination.
 Gary Kinder's 3-year investigation of the Meier case, leading to Light Years,
 confirmed among other things that Meier's 35mm color film had indeed been
 processed through normal commercial channels.  Kinder was also able to obtain
 further opinions from scientists and technicians to the effect that either
 the objects were truly hovering in the distance, or Meier was an extremely
 clever hoaxer.  Analysis of certain metal samples Meier claimed to have been
 given him by Semjase, and of a sound-track recording Meier had taken of a
 beamship while is was hovering invisibly, produced similar statements
 supporting their strangeness and seeming impossibility of hoaxing.  However,
 the UFO organizations had long since commited themselves to debunking the
 case, and since Kinder was not himself either a ufologist or a photographic
technician, his positive findings made no visible impact upon the UFO
organization leaders.

 Certain aspects of the case seemed too incredible for Kinder himself to
accept, and he was not interested in its spiritual side.  Thus, he failed to
even mention what is perhaps the most remarkable feature of the case.  It is a
document, called the Talmud Jmmanuel (TJ), a translation of which fell into
Meier's possession in the early 1970s, and which reads as if it is the
original writing of the teachings of Jesus.  The original ancient document is
said to have been written in Aramaic, but to have been destroyed by those who
felt threatened by its existence.  Before its destruction, however, the
translator, a Lebanese ex-prist who knew German, mailed the section he had
translated to Meier, whom he had met in the 1960s.  Later, the translat
or was killed by an assassin for his efforts.  Meier, in turn, was told by
Semjase that this was Earth's most important writing, and that he should
distribute it to interested and sincere parties.  According to Meier's contact
notes it was no accident that while in the Mideast he met the man who the
Pleiadeans had prompted to locate the TJ, and became its recipient.

 The TJ would seem to represent the logia, or sayings of Jesus, which the
 early second century bishop, Papias from Caesarea, had in mind when he wrote
 "Matthew compiled the logia [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each
 interpreted them as best he could."  Scholars have been pondering the meaning
 of this sentence ever since, with the early 20th century theologian, Burnette
 Streeter, suggesting it might mean that these logia had no authorized
 translation.  This in turn would imply that they had been heretical, and
 required heavy editing by the Christian scribe of Jewish background who
 attached Matthew's name to his new gospel.
 Meier learned from the TJ's translator that the document did not make its way
 to the Palestine area until around the turn of the first century, when a copy
 embedded in resin was buried in the Jerusalem area, to remain there for about
 1900 years, while another copy (or the original) apparently found its way to
 the early Christian church to form the basis of the gospels.
 The TJ is briefly mentioned in the chief booklet disparaging the Meier case,
one written by Kal Korff, once a young associate of the ufologist William
Moore.  However, none of its remarkable aspects were noted, perhaps because of
its heretical contents, or because of the intention to debunk the case.  The
TJ explains most of the outstanding questions which have plagued Christian
scholars for centuries, but in a manner much more creative than one would
expect from any hoaxer or group of New Testament scholar-hoaxers.  Its
emphasis on the "power of the spirit" can explain why the Gnostic movement
suddenly flourished in the early second century.  From it one can deduce
interesting relationships between the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, and the
ir origins.  About 21% of its content is very similar to that of Matthew,
another 23% is recognizable as having parallel passages to those in Matthew,
but with different meanings, and nearly all the rest is fresh material --
mostly heretical from a Christian viewpoint.  An example of the latter is this
TJ verse:

 There is no eye that is equal to wisdom,
 no darkness equal to ignorance, no power
 equal to the power of the spirit, and no
 terror equal to spiritual poverty.

Here, and elsewhere in the TJ, "spirit" refers to the individuals spirit.
 An example of a minor difference between verses of Matthew and the TJ is:

 Matthew 13:54
 and coming to his own country
 he taught them in their synagogue....

 TJ 15:68
 And he came into his father's city,
     Nazareth,
 and taught in the synagogue....

 Few scholars even know that this verse of Matthew has been criticized, three
years after the TJ came out in print, for not naming Nazareth explicitly, as
if the compiler of Matthew did not wish to name the town which once rejected
Jesus.  Also, "the ir synagogue" has been criticized as reflecting the later
viewpoint of a writer or scribe at a time when the split between Judaism and
Christianity was still taking place.  The TJ suffers from neither criticism.
 Meier's very limited school education does not lend itself to the hoax theory
here.  His schooling did not extend past about the seventh-grade level, due to
his ET contacts as a youth.  He is thus an extremely poor candidate to be a
hoaxer who could contact biblical scholars and bribe them into writing a
gospel which creatively solves a host of New Testament problems.
 An example where the verses are similar but the messages are quite different
is:
 Matthew 5:3
 Blessed are the poor in spirit,
 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 TJ 5:3
 Blessed are they who are rich in spirit
 and recognize the truth, for life
 belongs to them.

 Scholars of Matthew have had trouble with this verse for many decades,
arguing that "poor in spirit" must mean either poor in material possessions or
humble.  The implication from the TJ is that the compiler of Matthew preferred
"poor in spirit" as a condition which would encourage followers of the new
religion to accept its teachings rather than rely upon one's own knowledge and
conscience.  The TJ similarly avoids some 180 other criticisms of Matthew
which various New Testament scholars have made, some of them only after 1978,
and another 60 criticisms which can be deduced in hindsight.
 In the TJ, Jesus bears the name Immanuel (but spelled with a J), with Paul
implicated as the man who assigned the name "Jesus" in order to support his
theology of "God saves us from our sins," which the Hebrew-derived name,
Jesus, implies.  Now, Paul also taught resurrection, while Jmmanuel teaches
reincarnation, amongst many other things in the TJ.  It is interesting that
Paul had been a Pharisee before his conversion on the road to Damascus, and
that the Pharisees had believed in resurrection after death (not
reincarnation) since about the first century B.C.  This, combined with several
passages within Matthew which suggest that Jesus or his disciples had been
discussing reincarnation, lends much the plausibility to the TJ text and its i
mplication that the earliest writings upon which the gospels are based
received very heavy editing around the turn of the century, some 50 years
after Paul's interpretations had taken hold.
 One concept in Matthew's gospel which is to be found in the TJ is the value
of striving for righteousness.  An even more important one is the Golden Rule:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  The Golden Rule bears a
close relationship to cause and effect, and to karma, which inevitably
accompanies the concept of evolution of the soul, which Jmmanuel taught.

 It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from
observations quite independent of any religious teachings.  Data have been
accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied
childhood cases of the "reincarnation type."  In these cases, of worldwide
distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will
be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or
she were actually someone else.  Often the child makes enough statements so
that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a
particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the
child in question.  Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type
(four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved"
cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved
cases.  After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life
memories generally fade away.
 In most contactee cases, not just with the Meier case, and apparently with a
large proportion of abductees as well, the subject, as a result of his or her
UFO experiences, ends up believing in the reality of reincarnation.  This
phenomenon has close links to the prevalent belief of reincarnation within the
New Age movement.  Of course, it is also an old belief having been part of
many cultures including various Native American peoples, such as the Lenapes
of Delaware and New Jersey, the Hopis, the Pueblos, and Eskimos -- especially
the Tlingets of southern Alaska -- and of many South Pacific Peoples.

 The TJ bears a direct relationship to the UFO phenomenon.  For example, the
voice at the baptism of Jmmanuel in the Jordon River comes from the "metallic
light" into which he enters and is then taken away for intense education for
forty days and nights.  While the TJ's text is largely unacceptable to both
Christianity and Judaism, it cannot be discussed or examined openly by Western
scholars whether they are Christian or not because of such UFO aspects.
Furthermore, since its alleged Aramaic version was said to have been
destroyed, the TJ translation can be quickly dismissed on the grounds of lack
of hard evidence by any who do examine it only cursorily.  Thus, it is nothing
that any skeptic with fixed opinions need feel threatened by.
 The TJ adds another dimension to the Meier case.  Detractors already must
assume that Meier was skilled in the rapid writing (without making any
revisions) of voluminous conversational novels which read like self-consistant
and very interesting contact notes, that he had collaborators exceedingly
skilled in fake photography with access to very expensive equipment, and that
he had great magical talents with which to deceive secondary witnesses.  With
the TJ, they must also assume that he had gained access to the services of one
or more apostate New Testament scholars who were very knowledgeable and
creative.  All this they must assume he accomplished with no money available
by which to reimburse the unknown accomplices.  It is clear that if Meier and
his evidence are not taken at face value, he would have needed several
accomplices to obtain even less credible photographs of hovering UFOs than he
has -- perhaps ten or fifteen accomplices by some estimates -- since he lost
his left arm just above the elbow in 1965, and could scarcely have deployed
23-foot models of UFOs all by himself.  If his evidence is taken at face
value, his accomplices were the Pleiadeans.
 According to Meier's contact notes, the Pleiadeans were themselves aided in
their Earth operations by several other ET races working cooperatively with
them.  However, another ET group with less power is also mentioned as working
against them whenever they could.  In this respect Meier's experiences suggest
that some things never change!
 There has not been space to discuss but a fraction of all the evidence and
details which support Meier's photographs and reports, nor space to discuss
but a fraction of the complaints of critics.  One of these complaints is that
the Pleiades is an open star cluster only some 70 million years old -- far too
young by our understanding to contain any hospitable planets.  Before the
Pleiadeans had moved to the Pleiades, Meier was told, they had emigrated from
a planet within the constellation we call Lyra.  When Meier asked Semjase
about the habitability within the Pleiades, her reply was too occult to be
understandable, involving mention of a parallel set of "time-shifted
dimensions."  This kind of response is of course frowned upon by skeptics.
Although they realize that an alien civilization which can visit Earth may be
many millennia ahead of ours in technology, they continually revert to the
thinking which says that late 20th century science ought to be able to
understand all things reported by a genuine contactee.  Otherwise, they feel,
the case should be rejected on "scientific" grounds.

 However, one of the primary complaints -- that if anyone claims to have had
many different occasions upon which he or she, and scarcely anyone else, was
able to take photographs of hovering UFOs, they should be dismissed as some
kind of nut or egomaniac -- now needs reconsideration by ufologists.  Between
November 1987 and May, 1988, a man with the pseudonym of "Ed" of Gulf Breeze,
Florida, was supplied with 18 opportunities to photograph hovering UFOs of two
or three different physical shapes.
  Several members of our nation's largest UFO organization, MUFON (Mutual UFO
Network), soon kept a close watch on Ed's activities, but he kept receiving
opportunities to photograph hovering objects with his Polaroid camera when the
MUFON personnel and others (except sometimes for his wife) were not around.
These UFOs usually seemed to have a base diameter of from 8 to 15 feet.  After
Ed's 16th UFO incident, the MUFON investigators realized that his experiences
were ongoing, so they supplied him with a stereo camera with sealed-in film on
February 10th, 1988.  However, the hovering object Ed later photographed with
this camera, on February 26th, was determined to have a length of only 3 to 4
feet, causing detractors to pronounce it a model.
 For better future estimates of the size and distance of such a relatively
small UFO, the main investigators decided Ed needed a stereo camera system
with more resolving power, which they instructed him how to put together.
Then, on May 1st, with this camera system he photographed a hovering object
whose base diameter was later analyzed, through triangulation, to be about 14
feet, at a range of about 475 feet out over water.  The object had the same
crown-like appearance as what Ed had photographed earlier with his Polaroid
camera, in one frame of which three of them are shown together.  After May 1,
1988, it appears that Ed experienced an abduction event, and though he may
seem to be a contactee with respect to his photographic opportunities, he has
actually been treated as an abductee in all other respects.
 The MUFON investigators can see much reality in Ed's photographs, and cannot
come up with any plausible scenario of how he could have fraudulently
manufactured any significant fraction of the evidence, especially since there
are over a hundred other people in the area who have apparently witnessed
similar UFOs over the same half-year period.  Yet, other ufologists, mostly
from other UFO organizations, keep in mind only the ambiguous aspects of the
case and remain very negative about its reality .  It is clear that if the
case is no hoax, it would mean that UFO intelligences have a sophisticated
strategy of dealing with us, and this is still an unacceptable thought to
many.  Hence, we see that skeptics who explore a case which contains some
unacceptable aspects, simply dismiss those other aspects which support
genuineness.  In a case like this involving several thousand pieces of data
input, they can confine their attention to the numerous ambiguous aspects
without wondering if the ambiguities might reflect the presence of an advanced
technology.  The same apparently holds true for the Meier case.

 If the Meier case was meant for educating some segment of humanity, it would
appear that the Gulf Breeze case was meant for educating ufologists!  Should
that case ever receive solid endorsements of genuiness from this country's UFO
organizations, there is likely to be some demand for re-exploring the Meier
case.
 In the meantime, it is up to each interested individual to decide for himself
or herself, after obtaining all accessible information, whether or not the
Meier case seems genuine.  It is especially instructive, after thoroughly
digesting the data and photographs within the materials on the case authored
by Lee and Brit Elders, Wendelle Stevens, and Gary Kinder, to access one's own
odds that Eduard Meier could have come up with the extensive color photographs
and other credible evidence in his possession if he had not received
continuing ET help.
 For the person who is more interested in a summary of what is to be learned
from Meier's experiences and ET communications than in the evidence for or
against the case, a quotation from Meier's wife, Kalliope, from Vol. 2 of
UFO...Contact from the Pleiades by Lee and Brit Elders, well expresses it:
 "In June of 1976, seven people were waiting with me for Billy [Eduard] to
come back from a contact.  He came and said to us, 'go with me to another
point.'  We went and waited.  It was daylight and one of the boys told us to
look up into the sky.  It was our first sighting in the day.  The ship was
very big but got smaller as it rose, and I clearly saw the detail around the
top of the ship.  I saw little ports, and the whole UFO seemed to be light.
The children, three other woman and one man saw it too.  There are many lights
going across the sky at night and I cannot be sure what they are, but this I
am sure was the ship of Semjase.  I didn't believe it before because I had
never talked about UFO's or seen one.  But after this day...I believe.
 Now the UFO's are secondary, the information from the Pleiadians comes first.
We have to learn to live together...man and woman, different countries,
different races and different worlds."

 For literature which debunks the Meier contactee case, write William Moore,
 4219 W. Olive St., Suite 247, Burbank, CA.  91505.
 For information on video tapes which tell the positive side of the story,
 showing some of Meier's photos and movie-film footage, and especially for the
 video called "Contact," write Lee or Brit Elders at Genesis III Publishing,
 P.O. Drawer JJ, Munds Park, AZ.  86017.
 For information about purchasing the Talmud Jmmanuel, write Eduard Meier, Ch-
 8495, Hinterschmidruti/ZH, Switzerland.
 For more information about the Talmud Jmmanuel, please write Blue Water
 Publishing, P.O. Box 230893, Tigard, OR.  97224, for the availability of the
 book Celestial Teachings:  The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel
 (Jesus), By James Deardorff.

 For other information concerning this article, please write the author at the
Department of Atmospheric Sciences, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR.
97221.


July 6, 1991:  UPDATE
 The updated English/German version of the Talmud Jammanuel can be purchased
from:  Wild Flower Press, P.O. Box 230893 Dept. CT, Tigard, Oregon 97224.

EOF

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: File: Oh Krill Part 4 (conclusion)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:45:00 GMT
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 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 > Date: 21 Aug 91 04:03:12 GMT
 > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy

 > Although you can say the O. H. Krill file is a fraud if it's intended to
 > be
 > a genuine alien- or government-authored document, I feel that it's
 > important to realize that it contains many quotes from other sources,
 > and
 > therefore might still be useful *if the sources can be verified as
 > reliable*.

I agree, but that is the ingredients of disinformation.  Most of the stuff contained in the document is stuff that can't be verified which may be legit government projects not related to UFOs, but have a classification which won't permit public disclosure.  That is the problem with this stuff:  sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Apro Contact
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:43:00 GMT
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 > From: [e-mail] (Jeff Beddow)
 > Date: 22 Aug 91 21:39:35 GMT
 > Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > Distribution:world

 > Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO?

 > They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a

 > few years ago and I wonder what happened to it.

APRO is no longer.  Upon the deaths of Jim and Coral Lorenzen, the organization folded.

Mike

--
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: One More Thought On Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:50:00 GMT
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 > From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
 > Date: 24 Aug 91 03:23:35 GMT
 > Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > A few weeks back, I posted over 100k of Blue Book reports that Don
 > Berliner
 > had compiled from his investigation when he had the notion (at the time)
 > to write a detailed book on the "missing reports". He released his work
 > into the public domain when he decided not to write the book..


Could you please send these to me via netmail at: [e-mail]

Thanks Don.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!goanna!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre
From: [e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:01:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1851 alt.conspiracy:6745

<<<* Sorry guys but this isn't a sighting report (bloody vi editors) !
     Last night I saw a film called Hanger 18...about a UFO capture in
     Bannon County New Mexico. I'm not sure if it was meant to be
     fiction or not, the blurb at the beginning seemed to infer it was
     based on fact. Is this supposed to be loosly based on Roswell and
     Hanger 19 ? What did the Space Shuttle have to do with any of this
     and has an astronaut *ever* died in space ? Quite confusing really
     and any light you can shed on this would be appreciated very much.
     Hanger 18 was destroyed at the end of the movie by the CIA/USAF.
     Probally the most realistic part of the whole bloody movie !!!
     GRE.


  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> ||
||___________________________________________________________________||


--

  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 14:14:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 17

I heard on the news today that a famer in Columbia was abducted and had
an implant placed in his shoulder. He says he has a message for
President Bush. Did anyone else hear this? Does anyone know more?

Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to
aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting
to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge?

Any info would be appreicated. Please post so all can enjoy!



--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 18:41:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 66
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1853 alt.conspiracy:6747

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans) says:
>
><<<* Sorry guys but this isn't a sighting report (bloody vi editors) !
>     Last night I saw a film called Hanger 18...about a UFO capture in
>     Bannon County New Mexico. I'm not sure if it was meant to be
>     fiction or not, the blurb at the beginning seemed to infer it was
>     based on fact. Is this supposed to be loosly based on Roswell and

Yes, Gary Collins, the former host of Hour Magazine was indeed a space
shuttle astronaut who went into entertainment to avoid being killed
by the men in black.  Darren Mc Gavin, one of the scientists in the
movie also has a degree in astrophysics.  O.H. Krill was his adviser
in grad school.  Indeed, there have been numerous top secret shuttle
missions which have shot down spacecraft, but the NSA secretly launches
them from Fiji (not Phoenix), with the code name "Vula Binaka"...

>     Hanger 19 ? What did the Space Shuttle have to do with any of this
>     and has an astronaut *ever* died in space ? Quite confusing really
>     and any light you can shed on this would be appreciated very much.
>     Hanger 18 was destroyed at the end of the movie by the CIA/USAF.
>     Probally the most realistic part of the whole bloody movie !!!
>     GRE.

Well, beyond the 12 shuttles shot down by the Greys in the period from
1984-1989, no.  This was in retaliation for our search and destroy missions
on their reconaissance craft.


Well, I'll bet you're about to flame me to death, but here's the real poop,
and boy do I mean POOP.  Hangar 18 was a Schick Sun Classic Production.  These
are the boys and girls and greys who brought us such masterpieces as _The
Outer Space Connection_, the source of that rumor that a radio message from
Flight 19 stated "Don't come after me, they look like they're from Outer
Space!", The Mysterious Bigfoot, featuring such antics as famed psychic
Peter Hurkos figuring out that a briefcase brought to him by the production
staff of a bigfoot movie, indeed contained something related to bigfoot,
_The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the
quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that
failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed
up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the
projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The
Bermuda Triangle Mystery_ which had some of the most exciting re-usage of
stock footage from "Atlantis, the Lost Continent", ever seen, _In Search
of Noah's Ark_, with still more exciting re-usage of footage from _The
Bible_, and many other classics of postmodern cinematography...

In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation,
would you like to buy some Russian Farmland?

Scott

>
>
>  ___________________________________________________________________
>|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]                  ||
>||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> ||
>||___________________________________________________________________||
>
>
>--
>
>  ___________________________________________________________________
>|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]                  ||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.dreams
Subject: FILE: Dreams.txt - Dream or vision of things to come?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:10:04 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 845
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1854 alt.conspiracy:6748 alt.dreams:3772





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------




    INTRODUCTION:

    I am submitting this  file after  a great deal  of soul-searching. I
    have at no time  considered myself to  be any  different than anyone
    else. When the events that are recounted below occurred, I seriously
    considered seeking professional  help.  Instead, I turned within and
    performed my own private introspection.  I discovered that I can now
    approach these incidents and accept  them  as  factual  and  go from
    there.  I do not expect anyone to believe or  to  even actually read
    this file.  But, I feel that is necessary to at least "go-public" as
    part of the healing process.

    GROUNDWORK:

    I am at this writing 38 years old. I am divorced and have custody of
    my  two teenaged  sons.  I  am  ex-Navy  and  work  in  the computer
    communications field.
    I am an amateur  writer and investigative  correspondent for several
    publications. Most specifically, I write for Firefighters.

    I am not one of "God's Green Berets"  in terms of religion. Nor am I
    involved  in  an New Age,  Wicca,  or any other "alternative" belief
    system.
    I like to consider myself  as just a "regular  guy".  At the time of
    the dreams, I had been separated from my wife and had just filed for
    divorce.  I was living at 130 Foothill Court in Morgan Hill CA. This
    is a bedroom community located 35  miles south of San Jose CA. I was
    deeply involved  in  research  on  a  book  that  I  was  writing on
    corelationships between the ZODIAC killings in  the Bay area  in the
    70's and the Green River Killer of Seattle of the 80's. I relate all
    of this information in that I feel that it is necessary that  I "set
    the  stage"  of  exactly  what  was  going  on  in  my  life  and my
    preoccupations of the time.

    THE DREAMS BEGIN:

    In late May of 1989, I was poring over a large amount of data that I
    had recently received regarding the Green River  Killer. My research
    assistant,  Laura Xenos,  and I had spent  the  better  part  of the
    evening  cataloging  the new data  and  correlating  it  to existing
    information.  My youngest son, Danial, was staying with my sister in
    Seattle for the summer vacation and my oldest son  Mike was visiting
    a girlfriend in San Jose.  At about mid-night,  Laura and  I decided
    that we were both exhausted and decided to knock off for  the night.
    I convinced Laura not to drive all the way back to San  Jose and she

                                    1










    went to sleep on the couch in  my den.  I retired to my  bedroom and
    went to sleep.  However,  like all good parents, I kinda had one eye
    open to insure that Mike made it home OK.

    At precisely 3:15am I  awoke.  My bed was situated in  my bedroom in
    such a manner that when the bedroom door was open,  I could see down
    the hallway to my sons bedrooms. When I awoke, the hall light was on
    and there was a person  standing in door  of my bedroom.  As you are
    probably aware,  when you awaken from a deep sleep,  it is difficult
    to focus on bright lights.
    This being the case,  I shielded my eyes from the hall  light and in
    my best imitation  of a parent trying  to be hip I said  "  Yo dude,
    Isn't it a little late for you  to be getting in???".  The person(?)
    standing in the door said  in a calm and quiet voice  "Go  to sleep,
    You will  remember".  I recall  saying  something to  the  effect of
    "Yeah,  right" and I rolled over and went to sleep. At 5:00am I woke
    up,  sitting  up.  That is to say I became  aware that  I was  in my
    bedroom and that I was sitting up in bed.  I had no  recollection of
    sitting up, just that I was sitting there.

    Being of a hopeless parental mind,  I stormed into my sons  room and
    woke him up to chew him out for getting  in at 3:00am.  Mike told me
    he had arrived at 12:30  and watched the end of the Carson  show and
    went to sleep.  My son has never lied to me and this would  not have
    been a circumstance that he would feel that he had to lie to protect
    himself (he's bigger than me). Confused, I went in and woke up Laura
    and asked her if  she had come  to  my room the previous  night. She
    said that  she had been  asleep on the couch all night  and  had not
    risen until I woke her up.

    I was duly troubled by the events  of the previous evening.  For the
    rest of the day I had a nagging feeling that there  was something in
    my mind that was just out of reach. It is like when you are supposed
    to do something for someone but just can't remember exactly  what it
    was. There was a guilty feeling that I couldn't identify.

    Over the course of the day I dismissed the feelings and the thoughts
    that  had bothered  me that morning.  By the  end of the  day, I was
    ready  to  go  to  bed (the  first occurrence  happened  on a Friday
    night).  Mike had gone  off and was going to  spend the  night  at a
    friends house in San Jose and I was relishing the  thought of having
    the house empty and quiet to  myself.  I went to bed  at about 10:30
    and drifted off to sleep. At this point I am not sure if both of the
    below described dreams  occurred  on  the same  night or  if one had
    occurred the night  before  and  had  emerged  when  the  second one
    materialized. I do know that these dreams were in vivid color. I can
    CLEARLY remember that point.  I usually do not remember  the details
    of my dreams. But, in this case the details are clear and the colors
    are extremely clean and concise.

    DREAM 1, IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS

    I am in a large room.  It is not unlike the pictures I have  seen of
    the United  Nations General Assembly  Hall.  At one end is  a raised

                                    2










    dais that has several people(?) seated at it. There is a lot of gold
    and silver in the clothing  that  the people around me  are wearing.
    The  floor is  a fine  pastel blue not quite robins  egg  but close.
    There is a heated argument taking place between a man  on  the floor
    and the people(?)  on the dais.  I cannot see his head or  face (the
    man on  the floor).  Where  his head  would be  is  a  helical light
    alternating  white and black (like a barbers  pole).  it  is turning
    counter-clockwise.  That  is if you were  facing him,  the helix was
    turning from my right to left.  It had the appearance  of "screwing"
    down into his shoulders.  He is wearing a "toga"  that is iridescent
    blue/black and flashes when  he  moves his arms.  I  cannot  see his
    hands as the arms of the toga cover them.  I am suddenly  aware of a
    presence to  my  left.  I  cannot  see who it  is.  A quiet voice is
    talking to me.  I am being told that  the little man  in the silvery
    blue/black  robe  is   "Lucifer",   ambassador   from   the  Satanas
    Federation. He is declaring the rights of the Satanas to do what the
    please. The Council is advising him that the "experiments" must end.
    If the  Satanas Federation does not obey  the "Doctrine"  then there
    will be war.
    At this point I remember  straining to  hear what the  voices. There
    were no voices. It was more a lot of high pitched whines and growls.
    It  sounded a lot like  a beginning violin  player  combined  with a
    beginning clarinet player.  When I asked what the "doctrine" was, my
    off-stage dis-embodied voice told me that it  was that  no one could
    interfere with another culture.


    Fade to black.......


    DREAM 2, The 21

    I am in a place without definition.  there is a  pinkish blur around
    me.  It can be  likened to  what a  movie-maker would use to  have a
    dream-sequence in a movie.  In front of me is  a group of  people. I
    count 21  people standing in a  "triangular"  or a delta grouping in
    front  of  me.  At the point or apex facing  me is a  smallish woman
    about 5  feet tall.  She has black hair (raven black) it is straight
    and  severely cut  straight and even with  her shoulders.  She has a
    pale white complexion. Her eyes are striking. They are crystal clear
    and  the  bluest  blue  that  I  have  ever  seen.  They  are almost
    luminescent.  Her lips  are vivid red.  I am  sure that there  is no
    make-up on her face.  Around her are the other 20  people.  They are
    all dressed in pale blue robes bound at the waist with  a white rope
    or cord.  I cannot see their feet.  From my  left,  a voice tells me
    "This is  your  people"  "You are the protector".  I remember saying
    "Yeah,  right,  I am a protector,  I am overweight, wear glasses and
    can barely defend myself".  The voice didn't miss a beat,  "You will
    be changed". I can remember being both confused and curious. I asked
    the voice "  What am I supposed to do?, Who are these people?, Where
    are we to go? (I just knew we were going to go somewhere)"
    The voice replied "You will meet them when  it is time,  You will be
    the protector,  You will go over the river, past the mountain to the
    valley"

                                    3










    I was getting a little  agitated  at  this point.  "Am I supposed to
    lead these people like Moses or something?"  The voice answered that
    "She is the leader,  you are the protector". "to show that you are a
    protector, we are placing the mark of the protector on your vibronic
    (sic?)  aura to show others that you are a protector". At this point
    I  am suddenly holding a white ceramic molding  that  looks  kind of
    like a heart with one side gone.  Not a human heart mind  you, but a
    "romantic"   heart.  The  voice  says  "This  is  the  mark  of  the
    protector". "You will know from your memories when it is time to go"
    Again I was confused "What memories?"  The voice then  told me about
    Bio-Chemical memories that are implanted in the DNA structure of the
    receiver and can be activated at will.  I didn't understand  what he
    was telling me and I really cant even begin to recount it but I knew
    that I didn't understand it and that try as  I might to  absorb what
    he was saying I couldn't grasp it all.  There was a great deal about
    Cerebrum synapses and the bio-chemical programming being superior to
    crystal implants.  I am not a doctor or a clinical type so it didn't
    mean a great deal to me.  I remember the dream most vividly, but the
    clinical details of this  portion of the  "conversation" remain just
    out of reach so to speak in my mind.


    Fade to black.....

    THE NEXT DAY, AND A VISIT TO THE SUPERNATURAL.

    When  I awoke on  Sunday  Morning,  I was disturbed.  I had full and
    complete remembrance of these dreams at  this point.  Not only did I
    remember  each detail most  fully,  the dreams had been in  color. I
    could not ever remember  ever having a dream in  color.  The face of
    the black haired  woman was vivid in  my  mind.  I thought about the
    dreams all day.  I worked on my manuscript through most  of the day.
    When I went to bed Sunday evening,  I was still thinking  about her.
    That night I had the same dream(s) again. Now I don't know if it was
    induced by me re-living the experience in my mind of my own volition
    or if there was an outside influence.  Regardless,  I had the dreams
    again.  I continued to  have  the dreams  for several nights.  I was
    getting paranoid and scared. By Friday, I was afraid to go to sleep.
    I had been  awake for about  36  hours.  At  this  time  I  had been
    "dating"  a woman who was active in the more esoteric aspects of new
    age. I was aware of her beliefs but we never talked about it. I told
    her that I was not going out Friday night  with her,  and I told her
    that  I was disturbed by  some  dreams  that I kept having.  At this
    point,  I  had told  NO-ONE  about these dreams.  I  was afraid that
    people would think that I had gone "around the bend".
    Linda  convinced me to talk  to an acquaintance  of hers that  was a
    "channeler". I had no bloody idea what a "channeler" was or what the
    did.
    I agreed to see  the channeler.  That night I visited  a woman named
    Amaya.  I was nervous  about  all  of  it  partially  because  I was
    exhausted and partially I didn't know  what to expect.  Amaya was an
    older woman.  she was smallish and very delicate looking.  She had a
    soft quiet voice and was extremely polite.  She offered me a  cup of
    herb tea and  told me to  relax.  I told her that I had  been having

                                    4










    some dreams  that  were disturbing me  and that Linda  had said that
    maybe  she   could  help.   At  this  point  she   looked  extremely
    uncomfortable and asked if she could invite  another person  to join
    us.  I  didn't know what  to think.  I said sure,  no problem. I was
    uneasy though.  I didn't know if this was satanic or if  we going to
    cut a calf or what.  In a few minutes a man named Roger came  to the
    house.  Amaya then explained that she had invited Roger over because
    while she was talking to  me she  was being overtaken by  a powerful
    force, more powerful than anything that she has ever encountered and
    she wanted Roger to be  there in case he  was needed.  Amaya told me
    that there was someone who wanted  to talk to  me most emphatically,
    she said that it was  as if her body  were being  wholly attacked by
    sandpaper.  She said all of her nerve endings were being stimulated.
    She looked frightened.  Roger asked if she wanted to go through with
    it.  She said she didn't know.  At this point, I didn't know what to
    think.  I felt that I could be in the middle of a con job or a gypsy
    scam or whatever.  Again it is important for me to relate that I had
    still not told ANYONE about the content of  the dreams.  Roger got a
    tape recorder and set it up and told me  that I could  have a record
    of the events.  I was becoming convinced that it was a con-job. Then
    the  most  incredible thing that I have  ever  witnessed took place.
    Amaya was sitting across the table from me in her kitchen,  the tape
    recorder was on the table between us.  Roger was sitting to my left.
    All of Amayas facial features began to change. I don't mean that she
    distorted her face, I mean they CHANGED!. Her long thin face changed
    to a more round face,  her cheeks puffed out as if  she had suddenly
    gained 20 pounds. Her complexion darkened almost to that of a Latino
    or Arab.  Her eyes took on  a almond  shape and drew  back not quite
    into an oriental look. When she opened her eyes, they were no longer
    blue,  they were black!  That is there  was no color  just two black
    holes in the white.
    When she spoke,  gone was the soft quiet voice.  What came out was a
    loud booming voice. It had a distinct accent that was kind of like a
    Jamaican but more Spanish.

    What follows is a direct transcript of the tape that was made:

    You are indeed a protector.
    You were chosen many lifetimes ago
    You have been trained for this duty throughout your lifetimes
    You volunteered for this.
    You will be changed for this duty.
    You have been given memories  that  will be activated when  you need
    them.
    We  have  done  this  because  your  technical-analytical  mind will
    question
       these memories and you will not accept them.
    You can quit this duty whenever you decide.
    You have a free-will
    Your Vibronic (sic?) aura bears your mark
    (ROGER> "Let me see if I can detect it"
    --Roger begins to run his hands around me not unlike a  mime doing a
    'wall'   routine.
    (ROGER> "There is something here"

                                    5










    It is as I have told you, you bear the mark of the protector.
    (ROGER> "Here is what is there"
    --Roger hands me a piece of paper that has a pencil  drawing that is
    EXACTLY    the same as the white ceramic molding that I had  held in
    the dream.
    The girl is the leader. You are the protector.
    The dreams are real.
    You do not have to fear them.
    They will end tonight.
    There will be more dreams when you need them.
    Do you wish to be a protector?
    (ME> "Yes"
    Do you have any questions?
    (ME> "Yes, Many of them"
    You may ask.
    (ME> "Are there more than the people I saw?"
    There are other groups.
    Each 21 has its own protector.
    This 21 is for you.
    (ME> "The girl with the black hair is the leader?"
    She is  the leader  but she does  not  lead  the  way  that  you are
    thinking.
    She will be an example for the others.
    They will follow out of their own free-will.
    (ME> "How do I find them?"
    When it is time, They will find you.
    They will know you by your mark.
    You will know them by the mark.
    (ME> "What mark do they have?"
    When it is time, you will know.
    (ME> "Why is this happening now?"
    You are being awakened to allow time for you to be prepared  for the
    duty.
    Other protectors are being awakened now to prepare them.
    The time is approaching for you to begin your duty.
    When the world declares war on the South, it is time.
    (ME> "What does that mean?"
    You will understand in time.
    (ME> "Who are they?"
    They are the minds and the experiences of your race.
    (ME> "What about my family?"
    There will be more than just the 21.
    You will have many people in your care.
    The 21 are the core.
    You are the protector.
    (ME> "Does that mean that my family, my sons, will be with me?"
    Yes.
    (ME> "Are you from the future?"
    The future is like a river.
    It goes in a direction.
    There is no way of telling if there are eddies and backcurrents.
    If you place a piece of wood in  the water and track  its movements,
    then place a second piece of wood in the same spot in the water, the
    current will  never take  the same  route.  To ask if I am  from the

                                    6










    future cannot be answered in a way that  you will  understand. Leave
    it be said that I am from A future.
    (ME> "When you say that I was trained many lifetimes ago what do you
    mean?"
    You were a warrior.
    You fought many battles.
    You died many times.
    You volunteered when you were what you call a Comanchero.
    (ME> "What is that?"
    Your people call them Indians.
    They were the last pure spirits of your race.
    We spoke to them.
    We were what they called the Bird Tribes.
    --There is a period of quiet
    Do you have any other questions?
    (ME> "I know there are but I can't think of any."
    There is a malevolence, an evil as your race perceives it.
    It is dominating your plane.
    We cannot interfere.
    You must defend yourselves.
    We go now.


    --end of tape.

    NOTE--The above is  a direct  transcription from  the tape  that was
    made during the session.  This has been validated by  three separate
    persons.

    Amaya at this point seemed to deflate.  Her face changed back to its
    original configuration. She was panting and covered with sweat.

    I was both relieved and quite scared. I didn't know what to think.
    After she had recovered,  Amaya asked if  she  could  listen  to the
    tape.  I asked her if  she didn't  remember what was said.  She said
    that she had been in a "pink place"  while we had spoken.  She asked
    me the name of who I had talked to.  I had not asked.  She said that
    she didn't  know who it was wither,  but,  she said that  it was the
    most powerful  experience that she had ever  had.  I asked her  if I
    owed her anything.  She said that she usually asked  for  $75.00 for
    the services.  (This immediately fortified my belief that this was a
    scam) She said that she couldn't accept anything this time.
    I tried to force the money on  her.  (I  think that I  was trying to
    justify my own beliefs that this  was a scam).  As I  was leaving, I
    left $50.00  in a candy dish by  her door.  I felt better  for it. I
    went out to my car and took off for home.  I got about  3 miles from
    home and reached into my shirt pocket for my gas credit card, I came
    out with the 2 twenties and the ten that I "thought" that I had left
    in the candy dish. (Scary thoughts went through my head).

    That night I slept the sleep of the wicked. I had no dreams and woke
    up Saturday morning feeling refreshed and better than I have felt in
    years.


                                    7










    DREAM 3, THE CHURCH OF DISBELIEF

    There were  no  dreams  for several months.  My son Mike  helped his
    girlfriends  family  to move up  to Spokane in Washington  state and
    decided to  spend the summer  up  there.  Laura and  I  continued to
    research my book material and my relationship with Linda  wilted and
    faded away.  I was planning to take my  vacation and  take a camping
    trip up  to  Spokane and pick  up  my  son Mike,  and  swing over to
    Seattle see my son Danial (he had asked if he could go  to school in
    Seattle).  Laura was going to tag along to keep me company (strictly
    a platonic  relationship).  During  the course  of the  trip, We had
    stopped for the night at a campground just outside of  The Dalles in
    Oregon.
    I had hooked up my trailer and was  making a campfire.  I stoked the
    fire and was watching it. I became aware of Laura asking me if I was
    OK.  I  remember  looking at  my watch  and seeing that it  was only
    7:00pm saying that was ok and  that I was  going to sit  by the fire
    for a while.  Then Laura seemed to be shaking me asking me  if I was
    ok.  I said that I had "just told her that I was fine" She said that
    that had been almost 5  hours ago. I looked at the fire. It had gone
    out and was cinders. I was perplexed. I had just been looking at it.
    Hell,  I had just started it.  I looked at my watch. it said that it
    was  about 7:15pm.  Laura showed me her  watch.  It said that it was
    well past midnight.  My watch was running and didn't  appear to have
    any damage. I was a bit confused. I was very tired. We went into the
    trailer and I went to bed. That night I had another dream.

    I was in the air.  Flying I guess.  I was looking down on an area of
    trees  and green grass.  There was a river that  snaked  through the
    area.  There  was a community of  houses  nestled in a  crook in the
    river.  Amongst the houses was a small white  clapboard  building. I
    swooped down,  circling the white building. As I approached a ground
    level,  I could see the steeple.  It was a church.  It resembled the
    caricature  of  the  country  church.  I  circled  the  building and
    suddenly I was standing in the grass behind  the building.  It was a
    warm evening.  The sky was just darkening.  I could smell  the newly
    mown lawn as I approached the rear of the building. There was a door
    standing open.  I went into the building.  I seemed to  have entered
    the  church  from  behind the pulpit.  Standing at the pulpit  was a
    rather  overweight  man that  was emphatically  trying  to make some
    point.  I  couldn't  hear  what was  being said.  There was the same
    screeching  that  had been  present when  I had been  in the council
    chambers in  the other dreams.  I looked at  the congregation. There
    were looks of shock and disbelief on their faces.  Sitting among the
    congregation,  there were several people(?)  that had the same helix
    in  place of their  head.  When I saw them I  suddenly felt enraged.
    Each of them rose and quickly left the building.  I rushed out after
    them.  When I got outside, they were gone. The Voice was suddenly in
    my ear  (off  to  the  left  again),  "They  are  everywhere"  I was
    informed.  "They discredit those who suspect the truth" I turned and
    went back  into  the church.  The  overweight  man was still  at the
    pulpit,  the  congregation  still in  shock.  It  was as  if my dash
    through the church had not even been noticed. I was confused.


                                    8










    fade to black.....


    DREAM 4, THE BREEDING TEMPLE

    The remainder of the trip was uneventful. We went to Spokane, picked
    up Mike  and went  to  Seattle.  My  son Danial was  staying with my
    sister. When we all descended upon my sisters house, it was a little
    crowded.  I  opted to  sleep  on  a  rollaway  bed  in  the rec-room
    (converted garage). The first night there, I decided to walk down to
    the local 7-11  about three blocks away  for some milk.  You can see
    the store from  my  sisters front door.  I  had what  I felt  was an
    uneventful walk to the store,  I bought the milk and  returned home.
    When I  walked in the door,  my sister  jumped up off the  couch and
    demanded to know where I had been.  My sons came rushing out  of the
    bedrooms and before I knew it there was everyone asking me  if I was
    ok.  I continued to tell them that I had just  went to the  store. I
    was then  told that I had been  gone  for several hours and  that my
    sister had called  the police  and listed  me  as  missing. The 7-11
    clerk had told the police that I had been there and bought  the milk
    and had left.  When I checked the  milk that I had purchased, it was
    still cold,  as if  it had just been  removed from  the cooler. That
    night I had another dream.

    I was standing on a hill. There were evergreen trees all about me. I
    was at the edge of a clearing that went down  one side  of the hill.
    The clearing was green and grassy.  Sitting at the foot  of the hill
    was a building.  It was a stone (granite?) building that had columns
    in the front not unlike  the Lincoln Memorial  in  Washington  DC. I
    have  no  remembrance of  coming  down  the hill  but I  am suddenly
    standing in front of the building. I go into the building and in the
    anteroom  there are trappings (tapestries)  on  the walls.  They are
    black and there are gold foil ideograms (characters)  on them. It is
    reminiscent of oriental writing but with a more Aztec look to it. (I
    don't know why I thought that it was Aztec, I wouldn't know Aztec if
    it bit me)  I pass through the anteroom and enter a room  that has a
    "tank"  in it.  When I say tank, I mean that it was like there was a
    pool with the sides made of glass.  You could see into  the tank and
    the liquid hat was in the tank was a pale blue in color.  It was not
    unlike blue milk  in consistency.  As I enter the room  I can  see a
    woman in the liquid at one end of the  tank.  The tank appears to be
    about 6  feet wide,  8-10 feet long and about 2 feet deep. The woman
    is middle aged (40's ?),  short blonde hair.  She has a "sprinkling"
    of  freckles  on  her face  and chest (she  is  nude)  She gives the
    appearance of  being  very  complacent  and  pleased.  Her  eyes are
    closed.  She bears a  striking resemblance to Barbara  Bel-Gedes (of
    Dallas fame)  but younger.  She is sitting in the blue liquid  up to
    her chest.  I can see her breasts .  The Voice is there with  me. He
    tells me that she is part of the "breeding stock".  There  is motion
    at  the other end of  the tank.  I  turn  and I  can  see  a "child"
    suspended (seemingly)  just off the surface of the liquid. The child
    is about 8-10  years old.  He seems to "float" towards the woman. As
    he passes in front of me I can see his penis.  It  is  long and thin
    and I am reminded of a knife blade. As he approaches, she raises her

                                    9










    legs and he mounts her and they copulate. The Voice tells me that he
    (the  child)  is  one of  her offspring and  that  this  breeding is
    necessary to "strengthen the strain".  The Voice tells me  that once
    impregnated,  she will  be  kept in the liquid  as it is  a "stasis"
    solution that  accelerates fetal growth.  In  the  third  month, the
    fetus will be removed and she will  once  again be  impregnated. The
    fetus  is  placed in another "growth"  tank and  the stasis solution
    will allow for rapid development. When the fetus(?) has developed to
    what can be  likened to a  8-10  year physical development, they are
    "born"  out of  the stasis  solution.  At this point  their brain is
    empty. there is no personality development no maternal bond. Call it
    what you like.  They (the fetus)  is like a PC sitting there with no
    programming other  than the DOS.  the body functions are  there, but
    they  have  no  drive,  no  purpose.  The Voice tells me  that these
    humans(?)  are the Drones.  They are just slaves to perform tasks at
    the discretion  of the malevolence.(Note-the  Voice never identified
    the others as  anything more than  the Satanas or  the malevolence).
    When I ask if the woman is there of her own will, The Voice tells me
    that she is  one that  had been  "taken"  and there are hundreds and
    hundreds of others  that have been  "taken"  for breeding stock. The
    Voice told me that occasionally the malevolence  enhanced the strain
    by  introducing an "outside fetus".  These are  usually removed from
    the maternal unit (his words not mine)  between the  third and sixth
    month of gestation. They are then placed in the stasis and developed
    and introduced as breeders.

    Fade to Black....

    DREAM 5, BACK AT THE TEMPLE

    I can remember awakening and feeling quite confused and disturbed by
    what I had seen.  The day was totally uneventful, that next night, I
    had the same  dream.  This  time  when  I entered the "temple"  I am
    slightly off to one side of the tank.  There is a different woman in
    the tank.  This time it is a younger woman very slight of build with
    long red hair  that  hung  down  and was in  the blue  liquid. I was
    struck  by  the length of her hair.  The  scene was the same  as the
    previous night,  except  that in this  position I  now saw something
    that  I didn't see  the previous visit.  This time I  could see that
    standing in  the liquid,  wearing a  "robe"  that was the exact same
    color as the  liquid there were small people(?).  There were  one on
    each side of the woman.  They were holding her at  her shoulders and
    legs.  As the "child approached,  I could now see that  he was being
    held by two of the same  beings(?).  The Voice informed  me that the
    breeding   temples  were   run  by  Drones.   The  malevolence  only
    occasionally visited or showed up.  I felt the rage  building inside
    of  me again similar  to that which I had experienced  at  the small
    white church.

    Fade to black......

    DREAM 6, WAR

    I returned to my home  in Morgan Hill.  There was  no unusual events

                                    10










    for several weeks. Then one night the last dream occurred.

    I am in the middle of a pitched battle.  I appear to be in  a bombed
    out  building or structure of  some kind.  I am with a  small blonde
    man.  He has bright blue  eyes.  He is handing me a  silver metallic
    cylinder about two feet long and about 5-6 inches in diameter. It is
    heavy.  At one end there is a red lens like a magnifying  glass. The
    other end is sealed and is silver and metallic. On the side of it is
    a small hole that goes into the cylinder  at an angle.  He hands the
    cylinder to me.  He then shows me how to hold  it.  My thumb goes in
    the hole and my fingers wrap around the cylinder.
    I hold it under my arm against my side like a football. My left hand
    supports the cylinder  under the front near  the  lens.  He explains
    that it is an ionic projector.  It is a weapon  that is used  in the
    war.  He tells me that it is used  to disrupt the  nervous system of
    the enemy.  All about us there are explosions and flashes  of light.
    He turns and picks up  another cylinder  and  pokes  out  through an
    opening in  the wall  there is a  hum as the  cylinder projects what
    looks  like red  light.  It is not like a  laser,  it is more like a
    searchlight.  I see the "enemy". It is a lizard like creature. It is
    about 8 to 10 feet tall. Very thin and bony. It is moving slowly and
    deliberately.  I  point my  "weapon".  I don't know how to  fire it.
    "Push  with  your  thumb"  the blonde says.  I do so.  The red light
    flashes on my target.  It crumples to the ground.  I can now see its
    weapon.  It  looks like  a Viking  sword about  4  feet  long. There
    appears to be a handle  at right  angles to the blade  about halfway
    down the blade.  There is an enormous flash of bright  blue light. I
    turn to look at the blonde  man.  There is just a pile  of black ash
    where he had been.  Suddenly The Voice is there. He is telling me to
    go..  I don't know where to go.  I am confused. I am angry. Where is
    the blonde man?

    I am suddenly in a pink place not unlike that of DREAM 2. there is a
    silver metal table in front  of me.  Laying on the table is  a small
    figure.
    It has a large  head and enormous almond  shaped eyes.  There are no
    ears and two holes where a nose should be. The mouth has no lips. it
    is slightly open forming a oval in the  lower part of the  head. The
    neck is  extremely thin  and does  not look  like it would  have the
    strength to support the massive head.  The Voice is telling  me that
    this is the enemy that I will have to fight(?).  He tells me to turn
    it over. I reach out and push the body onto its side. It is cold and
    rather damp. It feels like a lizard, leathery and soft. I am looking
    at the back of the head. There is a hole (oblong) at the base of the
    neck where it meets the head.  The Voice tells me that the creatures
    have two brains.  Anterior and Posterior. (I have since learned that
    this  means   front  and  rear),   The  creatures   use  the  brains
    simultaneously. Because of this, it is almost impossible to kill the
    creatures.  If shot,  unless shot in both the front and  rear of the
    head, the creature continues to live. One of the brains is dead, but
    the  other continues to  carry on.  If one of  the brains  dies, the
    "power" is now diminished but not terminated. I asked The Voice what
    the  "power"  was.  He told  me  that these creatures  (I have since
    learned that  these are what  are called  GREYS)  have  a telepathic

                                    11










    capability.  this is limited however.  They have to be very close to
    you to  telepathically link.  They have learned to  overcome this by
    implanting a "crystal"  on the optic nerve of humans (its  about 2-4
    microns in  diameter).  This crystal is "tuned"  to the frequency of
    the "intruder".  It seems that each of the GREYS has a unique mental
    frequency that allows mental  privacy.  If they want to communicate,
    they "switch"  to a mental frequency that is for  communicating. The
    "hosts"  (humans)  are not  on that frequency.  The crystal implants
    allow  the "intruders"  to attach  to  the mental  processes  of the
    "host".  For  the PC  literate in the reading audience,  it  is like
    using a PC Anywhere or Carbon Copy software. The remote suddenly has
    full and complete control over the host.  The Voice informed me that
    there are many "controllers"  among the GREYS. Each "controller" has
    20  to 30  "hosts"  that he maintains. The crystal also enhances the
    range of the telepathic "power". While without the crystal, there is
    a certain amount of telepathic communicative ability at an extremely
    limited distance,  the crystal allows for the "control"  of the host
    from  a distance  that  can be several  miles away.  Thus a "pod" of
    GREYS can summon up an army of 100  to 200 humans and direct them to
    do  what  ever  they want.  (The Voice told me  that the malevolence
    (GREYS) operate in groups they call "PODS" of 8 to 10 with one being
    the leader).  Killing off the human "hosts"  does little to diminish
    the threat.  The "controller"  has to be taken out. This is what The
    Voice was trying to show me.

    The Voice told me that there have  been many cases of  a malevolence
    being shot by a human.  But,  because of the bony plate that divided
    the brain cavities,  the posterior brain continued to function. This
    bony plate is what  we would  call bullet-proof.   In many cases the
    human was given the impression that the  shot had no effect.  A shot
    to the body had little to no effect. The Voice told me that when "in
    the  field"  the malevolence wore  a suit  that  was  made  up  of a
    material that had a molecular density 100  times  what  is common on
    our  planet.  A bullet would not penetrate the  material.  The Voice
    told me that other then shooting them in the head frontal  and rear,
    The only other approach  was a penetration at  the rear  of the head
    where the neck  meets the head.  A  straight penetration for  3 to 5
    inches will sever the cerebral cortex.  It seems that the two brains
    communicate with each other via a "wire"  (nerve bundle) that passes
    through  the bony plate.  The Voice stated that  a knife blade  or a
    gunshot (dicey but possible)  would immediately "kill"  it if it was
    hit in this area.  I asked how this  one had been  killed. The Voice
    told me that he had been  killed "in the  war"  and was here to show
    "protectors" what to do. I told The Voice that I didn't think that I
    could kill  anything.  The  Voice said  that  I  would  when  it was
    necessary. For the first time, I asked The Voice who he was. He told
    me that he was a "teacher" and could not tell me any more than that.

    I felt satisfied with that answer (although I don't know why). I was
    warm all over.

    Fade to black....

    POSTSCRIPT

                                    12











    That was the last dream that I have had to date. Several things have
    occurred that  are  almost  miraculous  in  nature  from  that time.
    Without apparent effort,  I have lost about 65 lbs. I received a job
    offer that relocated me from CA to WA.  Much in my life  has settled
    and I am content.

    I have related the events listed above as  part of something  that I
    feel the need to do. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I
    am not a prophet of  doom  or,  like some others,  trying to line my
    pockets by pretending to be some kind of authority.  I am just a guy
    that seems to have been thrust into an unusual  circumstance. Ignore
    it?  no chance. I am sure that I have had these dreams. Whether they
    reflect reality or not remains to  be  seen.  At this point I merely
    know what I know.  I  have come to  accept what has occurred  and am
    continuing my life.  I refuse to go to the mat and  try  to convince
    anyone that what has occurred is real.  If you chose  to not believe
    it,  so be it.  If you choose to believe that what I have related is
    true, so be it. I know that it occurred. Since that time I have done
    a  lot of  reading and learning  about  the  UFO  community  and the
    promoters and the nay-sayers.  I am certain that I will be de-bunked
    and called a phony and all the rest.  Confidentially, I don't give a
    ragged rats ass. I know what I know.

    Hasta La Bye-Bye

    Randy Terpstra

EOF

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: MUFON: The Investigators Edge Handbook
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:18:07 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1015
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1855 alt.conspiracy:6749


I thought it might be interesting to post this here and let you see
what kind of attention to detail is paid in investigating UFO's. This
comes from the MUFON handbook called "The Investigator's Edge"..

If I can get ahold of other UFO organizations procedures that would
be allowed to the general public, I'll post them as well.

This file, is a *compilation* of several files dealing with the same subject.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                         THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE SERIES
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     The Investigator's Edge series of instructional and informative files,
compiled primarily for the MUFON Field Investigator, originally started out as
information from Dan Wright's newsletters to State Directors, but has since
included exceptional information for a number of newsletters currently being
published by various State and Assistant State Directors from all over the
country.

     Each IEDGE*.TXT file is from a newsletter submitted to the MUFONET-BBS
Network by the author, or from a MUFON Member who has experience/training in a
certain specialized area of scientific or humanitarian endeavor.  Each file in
the series is pertinent, informative and educational and is to be used as a
tool by the Field Investigator to assist him/her in her field work of
investigating UFO and UFO-related cases.

     If you feel you can contribute a bit of informative information of use for
the above purpose, please either upload the file to a MUFONET-BBS Network
member board, or send via U.S. Snailmail to:

                                   John Komar
                      Administrator - MUFONET-BBS Network
                        State Director/Tennessee - MUFON
                             4769 Lake Ridge Drive
                            Memphis, Tennessee 38109

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Dan Wright's Mufon Newsletter
Dan Wright
Deputy Director, Investigations
228 S. Fairview
Lansing, MI 48912

August 28, 1989

THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE

Witness integrity is a critical area to be covered in the investigator's
report, yet it is often the most difficult area to assess.  Few of us have
much formal education in psychology, and even that type of training might be
insufficient in certain cases.

Much has been said and written about hoaxed claims, which nearly always entail
a dramatic close encounter story wherein the teller was the intended subject
of the intruder.  Other indicators to look for include:

(a) precise details expressed with confidence regarding measurements, vehicle
    design and so forth,

(b) if multiple witnesses, total agreement on all aspects of the original
    account,

(c) instant answers to questions posed,

(d) the conveyance of a message or indication of purpose by the alien
    intelligence, and

(e) a desire for publicity by the reporting person.  Some accounts are genuine
    despite these appearances, but they do serve as caution lights.

Exaggeration and embellishment are not the same and both must be considered.
The former overstates a descriptive element - proximity, size, brightness,
velocity and the like - that would normally be perceived in an event of that
type.  If an object seen at dusk in a populated area is estimated to have been
thousands of feet in the air yet a foot in diameter at arm's length, one would
suspect an exaggerated apparent size.  [Otherwise, police phone lines would
have been jammed followed by headlines in the morning news.]

Embellishment, by contrast, adds elements or details thereof that were not
part of the actual observation.  This might become evident when comparing
original statements made immediately after the incident (to police, the
investigator or someone  else) with a later re-telling.  For example, the
object was lost from view below the tree-line and (the witness later deduces)
landed.  Perhaps a faint glow within the woods is added in the re-telling as
well.

Taking leave of the facts in either of these fashions might be quite
unintentional on the part of a person who both wants to impress you, "the
expert", in such matters. Thus, when questioned (s)he tends to fill in any
gaps in what was truly heard and seen.  Still, if repeated at various points
of the account, the entire event may be called into question.

A "true believer" is readily identifiable by a large crystal adorning
his/her necklace, the flying saucer belt buckle, and the autographed copy of
Shirley MacLaine over the mantle.  Seriously, this type of individual tends to
have just enough knowledge of the UFO subject to be half convincing on the
surface.  Certainly, randomness being a factor in the sighting annals, one of
these "Children of the New Age" or just plain UFOnut may have had a real
experience.  However, as the sign reads on those windy mountain passes,
proceed with extreme caution.

If a bookcase is in view, a quick scan of its contents is always in order and
may be very illuminating.  In the recounting, these persons often tend to
digress into a series of previous nocturnal light sightings (which sound
suspiciously similar to airplanes, satellites and planets) and to offer firm
opinions on the origins, purposes and/or lessons of alien visitation.  For, at
the heart of the true-believer mentality is a fervent desire to be in contact
with mysterious forces - of the UFO variety or otherwise.  By itself, this is
harmless.  But, being a prisoner of one's passions, IFOs are easily
transformed into UFOs, and a genuine observation can trigger a delusion of
meaningful communication.  Lest we succumb to the temptation of seeing an
abduction behind every bush, it bears reminding that there are still lots of
gullible folks out there with active imaginations and a need to be part of the
action.

Attached is a "Survey of UFO/Metaphysical Interests," a list of questions
which you and your members may find useful in sorting through matters of
witness integrity.  It is intended for use in those iffy cases, although the
first five are suitable for general audiences.  Also, investigators should be
cautioned not to raise such questions until all other relevant information has
been discussed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

               SURVEY OF UFO / METAPHYSICAL INTERESTS

Date _____________________       Witness _________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________

 1) What books have you read on the UFO subject? ____________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

 2) Are you familiar with: Whitley Strieber? ____.  Budd Hopkins? ____.

    Project Bluebook? ____.  MJ-12? ____.

 3) Have you found that tabloids (Enquirer, etc.) offer information on UFO
    incidents that you can't get elsewhere? ____.  Do you have a favorite
    tabloid? ____.
                  __________________________________________________________.

 4) Where do UFO's come from? _______________________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

 5) Have you reached a conclusion as to why they are here? __________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

 6) Are particular kinds of people selected for UFO encounters? _____________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

 7) Do you think psychic people have a better chance of seeing a UFO than
    others? ____.

 8) Would an astrologer be able to predict the likelihood of a UFO encounter
    for a client? ____.

 9) Do you feel you were destined to have an UFO experience? ____. Why? _____

    _________________________________________________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

10) How can UFO's go so fast? ______________________________________________.

    How can they just vanish into thin air? ________________________________.

11) Do you have an impression of what an alien looks like? __________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

12) Did you see the movie: "E.T." ____.  "Coccoon" ____.  "Starman" ____.
    "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" ____.

    Do you feel these portray what aliens are really like? _________________.

13) Do you suspect that aliens live their lives much like we do? ___________.

14) Is it fair to assume that alien visitors mean us no harm? ______________.

    Why do you feel that way? _______________________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

15) If you could select a friend right now to be in the same circumstance,
    would you want him or her to experience what you did? ____.  Why? _______

    ________________________________________________________________________.

16) Have you ever tried a past-life regression? ____.  What did you find out?

    _________________________________________________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

17) Have you attended a "channeling" session? ____. Were you impressed? _____

    ________________________________________________________________________.

18) Have you ever had an episode of being outside your body? ____.  What hap-
    pened then?
               ______________________________________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

19) Is there a particular color that has a special meaning for you? ____. Why

    ________________________________________________________________________.

20) Have you ever had "Tarot" cards read for you? ____.  Did they turn out to
    be accurate?
                ____________________________________________________________.

21) Has anyone ever done "automatic writing" for you? ____.  What did you
    learn?
          __________________________________________________________________.

22) What happens after this life is over? ___________________________________

    ________________________________________________________________________.

MISC. _______________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


INVESTIGATOR ________________________________________________________________


THE INVESTIGATOR EDGE

                           from the 1-2-90 issue of
                            Dan Wright's newsletter

In a recent case occurring in Florida (related below), two men standing
long a road were distracted by the sudden, excited barking of numerous
dogs.  They then noticed bright aerial lights approaching and observed
a large anomalous vehicle.

On a windy night in March 1980, two women and their eight children
watched as a 12 - 15 - foot object of undefined shape within a glowing
aura approached and remained some 50 feet from their door, performing
feats and color changes over a 2-hour period.  At various points, each
of three dogs was let outside, yet none appeared to notice the
intruder.

As noted by Allan Hendry "The UFO Handbook" (Doubleday, 1979), animals
do not share the technological fantasies and anticipations of humans.
Pets such as dogs and cats, moreover, possess more acute senses, most
notably hearing, and can detect emanations which we cannot.  [Whether
an animal can detect microwaves, low-strength magnetic fields or
minute static charges is not known.]  Consequently, if an animal
reacts during the reported observation, it is inferred that
*something* was there to be sensed.

The expectation that animal reactions are linked closely with UFOs is
a preconception in the consciousness of the American public.  To state
the obvious, animals can't speak for themselves, so the interpretation
of their actions is left to the human witness.  Cats have been
reported to arch their back, hair standing on end, at the sight of a
strange airborne vehicle.  Of course, the sight of a strange cat would
have caused the same result.  UFOs have long been linked to dogs
howling, barking, or cowering.  Dogs likewise howl at the moon and
bark at just about anything, including the barking of other dogs.
Some dogs cower whenever an adult looks at them.

You should also keep in mind that pets are often closely attuned to -
and influenced by - the moods of their masters.  Thus, if a person is
acting excitedly or fearfully at the perception of a UFO, the animals
in his/her presence may well exhibit a strong response also.

Hendry concludes this chapter of his excellent book with an
observation:  "Clearly, while animals have different motives for
response to UFO and IFO stimuli than humans, the range is just as
complex and baffling to sort out."

We do seek to compile all the evidence available on animal reactions
to genuine UFOs.  When milk or egg production drops afterward, when
an animal is injured or when its behavior is described as totally out
of character, something physical seemingly caused it.  Animal reactions
will be included in our computerized records, sorting both by species
and type of reaction.

In Chapter VIII of the MUFON "Field Investigator's Manual", Ray Fowler
reminds us that a Form 4 should be completed (and mention of the
reaction included in the "Personal Account" section of the Form 1) for
all anecdotal evidence.  If the animal displays symptoms of residual
radiation, a Form 10 should be completed and a radiological
examination conducted as part of the treatment administered.  Where
physical evidence is apparent (e.g. an injury or significant loss of
fur or feathers, the animal should be photographed and a Form 6 filled
out.)

A final point:  The investigator should never ask a witness whether
animals were present.  This is a leading question and only encourages
the witness to speculate on behavior that may not have been otherwise
regarded as extraordinary.  Reactions (or a lack of reaction) regarded
as unusual at the time will in all likelihood be volunteered by the
witness.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mutual UFO Network              Newsletter
103 Oldtowne Road               Dan Wright
Seguin, Texas 78155             Deputy Director, Investigations

                     November 1, 1989

THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE

The witness has just concluded his account of a dramatic, prolonged close
encounter with an object of unusual shape, including exterior trappings.  You
ask that he spend a few minutes in sketching the vehicle's design.  After a
bit, he produces a two-dimensional, asymmetrical scrawl and says sheepishly,
"Never could draw."

The woman has described two identical entities in her bedroom that she was
permitted to inspect in a conscious awareness for long minutes.  Asked to
reduce to paper what they looked like, she prepares with some care a drawing
that is nevertheless remindful of a 4-year-old's rendering of Daddy.

Sound familiar?  Conquering such a problem is really not at all mysterious, as
every major police department long ago discovered:  An artist is brought in to
work with the witness to reconstruct the villain's appearance.

For the limited purpose of devising an accurate rendering of a craft or
entity, the facilitator need not be either a professional artist nor have
formal MUFON membership (though the latter is certainly preferred).  At least
some several million people have a marked ability in this area and have taken
some classes.  Frankly, given the horrible drawings that so typically
accompany case reports, anyone with an acumen for drawing would be appreciated
and should be utilized.

The reality in our business - and in the art world generally - is that
vehicles and portraits involve fundamentally different skills.  So, consider
the idea of having two persons available to press into duty.  In that CE-1s
are far more commonly reported than CE-3s or CE-4s, a person with *mechanical
drawing* skill will likely be valuable more often.  For the occasional entity
case, someone who has had an art class in human anatomy would be the wiser
selection.  Certainly, someone who has both types of abilities is ideal.

A few considerations in utilizing an artist:  First, of course, the person
must realize that, in agreeing to offer this assistance, (s)he may be called
upon with no forewarning - even raised from his/her bed on occasion.  Second,
the drawing is to be a faithful rendering of what the witness describes, i.e.
without artistic license.  [Certainly, questions of the witness along the way
are both appropriate and necessary.]  And third, when the drawing is completed
to the client's satisfaction, it should be *signed and dated* by both the
client and artist.  Naturally, the investigator must clarify in the case
report that the drawing was made with the assistance of the person named.  For
the sake of objectivity, the witness should be asked to attempt a drawing
without assistance before the expert is brought to bear, and that drawing, no
matter how crude, should accompany the report.

It cannot be overemphasized that we as an organization fail to make critical
ties among UFO events occurring at different times and locations because of a
lack of adequate drawing skills at the ready.  Every college and most high
schools in America have at least one instructor and several students able to
fill this critical need.  Please make a concerted effort to find one or more
to assist yourself - and encourage your members to locate additional volunteer
artists in their own locales.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dan Wright's Newsletter         March 21, 1989
Deputy Director, Investigations
Mutual UFO Network

INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE

Following a prolonged encounter with a glowing bell-shaped object on her
property, a woman rather suddenly began having precognitive thoughts and
dreams.  Unfamiliar names popped into her mind, only to be used later in the
day by family members.  She proceeded to the phone seconds before it began
ringing, knowing who was calling.  In a vivid dream, someone she knew was
dying in a house fire, a fact borne out by the next day's newspaper.

Soon after a lengthy encounter on their farm with small triangular-based
vehicles, a couple and their best friend (who also witnessed the event)
gathered one evening and shared a sense of dread that, for whatever reason,
they would not be getting together again.  The next evening, the husband was
killed in an auto accident.

These two incidents are not taken from the Time-Life book series we've all
seen advertised on TV, but rather are from my personal case files.  Though we
cannot begin to adequately explain such occurrences, in some extended close-
encounters situations, one or more of the witnesses are left with some form of
ESP.  This aspect of UFO experiences has, unfortunately, been rather neglected
by the investigative community and probably underreported.

In that a long, involved UFO encounter is likely to take multiple interviews
and weeks or months to sort out, an ESP/psychic awareness may manifest itself
if the investigator has the foresight to look for evidence of same.  After the
basic facts of the aerial event have been gathered and one is satisfied that
the claim is genuine, it is proper to ask (without mentioning anything
specific) that the witness record any feelings or unusual experiences
considered out of place.  If something does present itself in the encounter's
aftermath, the witness is likely to ask those questions so common to CE
episodes generally:  "Why me?" and "What does it mean?"  If there is no
indication that the paranormal recountings are delusive, the investigator
must:  (1) be honest in explaining our fundamental ignorance of the basis for
these effects, (2) refrain from speculating on what might happen as a result,
(3) assure the person that, it most recorded cases, any paranormal effects
dissipate over time, and (4) for lack of precise knowledge as to why, try to
counsel the person to accept it as an inadvertent gift left behind.

Perhaps most importantly, ensure an open line of communication after the
investigation is finished.  Without any data to support the contention,
witnesses with this sort of potential would appear ideally suited for repeat
encounters at some future date.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mutual UFO Network
Dan Wright's Newsletter         June 5, 1989

THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE

Anyone who has hung around the subject for awhile is bound to hear those
familiar words and phrases which ought to raise an eyebrow of doubt:
"silent", "in an instant", "paralyzed", "glowing", "blinding" and (my personal
favorite) "disappeared".  Let's examine these usages that are indicative of
how excited witnesses tell their stories on first recounting.

- "Silent".  Was the object in question genuinely without any sound?  If the
witness had been a few feet directly underneath it on a still night in the
hinterland, would not even a decibel of sound have noted?

In writing up the investigative summary, one must be very careful to
distinguish between (what are probably rare) incidents wherein, considering
all the physical factors, the vehicle was genuinely silent in terms of human
audio perception, as compared to cases in which the witness, for whatever
reason, was unable to detect the actual sound generated by metallic parts.
Most often, sheer distance was the culprit.  Elements in the environment -
especially wind, both as it rustles vegetation and crosses the percipient's
ears - can easily wipe out a low sound.  Therefore, unless the circumstances
make it obvious that an anomalous object was really silent, the correct
assumption is that "the witness(es) did not perceive any sound in connection
with the object."

- "In an instant".  How long is an instant, anyway?  Presumably, it splits a
second, but how far?  A common meteor may be said to have passed beyond the
witness' view in an instant, yet we can roughly gauge its actual speed.  "In
no time," the vehicle was out of sight - which might be said of an F-16 on a
fly-over low to the ground.  Obviously, though, some time was involved, and a
measurement using a stopwatch can be taken.  If the moment in question cannot
be so depicted, it may be fairer to convey in the write-up that the object
departed at a speed apparently beyond conventional abilities and/or with no
sense of acceleration.

- "Paralyzed (with fear)".  Was the witness genuinely immobilized from an
external force?  Alternately, was (s)he *psychologically* "captivated",
"mesmerized", or "transfixed" due to the unexpected nature of the event?  This
area of close-encounter research still evokes debate, largely because of
imprecise questioning by the investigator of the witness' actual state of mind
during the event.

-"Glowing".  As with Rudolph's nose, when we read this term we assume a light
source that is internal to the object in question.  If the twilight sun was
reflecting off the object, the proper word is "glinting".  If the term
"glowing" is used, it forces the physicist and engineer to consider specific
possibilities.  Be careful with this one.

- "Blinding".  Gosh, was the witness unable to perceive his/her surroundings
after the incident? As an example, humans cannot look at the midday sun for
more than a second or so without spots before our eyes and tears forming.
Furthermore, substantial physiological damage would be done to the cornea in a
matter of several seconds.  Thus, that serves as a benchmark.  Precisely how
long was the witness able to look directly at the source, and what were the
aftereffects\/  Most often, "blinding" can be downgraded to "brilliant" or
just "bright".

- "Disappeared".  Commonly coined, it is remarked, "Then, all of a sudden it
just 'disappeared' (from view)".  So, what precisely happened? Did the object
molecularly dematerialize?  Well, okay, we have plenty of cases through the
years that suggest this - although one might argue a progression into the
ultra-violet or infra-red spectrum of electromagnetism.  More likely in a
given instance, however, the witness intended simply to say that the object
simply moved beyond the horizon or otherwise out of view.

Proper investigating being a learned ability, with lots of pained discoveries
along the way, it is understandable that these kinds of superlatives have gone
unchallenged in previous cases.  If we are to make sense of our data, though,
extreme care must be taken before underscoring the witness statement on those
tentative points.  That's a major reason why detailed questioning must follow
the initial witness account.  And the investigator's summary must address
these factors, clarifying the intended meaning with sober rationale.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



series for Field  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Edge" No. 8
Investigators

                           "THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE"
                          ---------------------------
[Note: This edition of the "Investigator's Edge" is from the January, 1991
issue of "GEORGIA SKYWATCH", published by GEORGIA-MUFON.]

                                    GENERAL
                                   ---------

              Things to keep in mind while doing investigations
             ---------------------------------------------------

AIRCRAFT:  Have a minimum of three non-flashing running lights; one on each
wing tip and one at the rear.  Right wing running light is green, left wing
running light is red, and the rear running light is white. [Note: many
aircraft also have two strobe lights, one mounted on top and on mounted below
the fuselage.]  There must not be more than one green running light.  Blue is
not used as a running light.  Helicopters have the same general running light
configuration as light planes.

ATMOSPHERIC TURBULENCE:  Can cause an object (that is near the horizon) to
look distorted and magnified.

AUTOKINETIC MOTION:  Eye movement can cause the witness to think a stationary
light or object is moving when in fact it is not.  Lining the target up with
two other stationary reference points can help to determine whether in fact
the object is moving.  When a witness says the light was moving in jerky
motions--side to side and up and down--suspect the witness is looking at a
star.

BALL LIGHTENING:  Appears hazy or solid, spherical, oval or rod shape.  Colors
range from red-white with orange being the most common.  It can hover, go less
than 5 mph or up to 60 mph.  It emits a hissing sound and when it explodes an
odor of sulfa or ozone is present.  It can appear after lightening strikes the
ground or in midair.  Ball lightening almost always appears during a
thunderstorm.

DIFFERENT OBJECTIVES:  UFO investigators are looking very hard for consistent
groups of facts, while UFO witnesses are looking for support and counseling.
These are two very different objectives and can be the source of conflict
between the witness and the investigator.  The wise investigator will keep
this in mind when dealing with witnesses.

DISTANCE:  Most witnesses underestimate the actual distance from the
observation point to the object.

ELECTROMAGNETIC INTERFERENCE:  Electromagnetic interference that can cause an
automobile's engine to stall and can interrupt the operation of other
electrical devices has sometimes been linked to UFO sighting reports.  Such
occurances are not limited to gasoline engines.  Diesel engines such as found
in trucks, boats, trains, and bulldozers have also been affected.  Similar
reports on airplane engines and radar equipment have also been reported.

INVESTIGATOR'S DUTY TO THE WITNESS:  The UFO investigator must subordinate his
or her need to collect UFO information to the needs and interests of the
witness.  The health and well-being of the witness must ALWAYS come before the
collection of UFO evidence and proof.

INTERPRETATION OF WITNESS TESTIMONY:  The interpretation of both free and
regressed witness narratives is BEST acomplished by behavioral psychologists
and other professionals skilled in the process.

FEELINGS REPORTED BY WITNESSES:  Feelings reported by witnesses include:

(A) Being watched
(B) Looking me over
(C) Feeling of being observed
(D) Feeling of fear
(E) Feeling of anger
(F) It was a beautiful experience
(G) Felt happy when it happened
(H) Felt object responded to witness
(I) Felt the object was trying to communicate with witness

PHYSICAL EXAMINATION: The number of witness reports which suggest aliens are
interested in observing or manipulating the witness's sexual organs and/or
otherwise conducting gynecological examinations of the witness appears to be
far less than would be euggested by popular reports.  More often, witnesses
report examination of their heads.

HIGH STRANGENESS:  When a large number of witness narratives are examined, it
quickly becomes obvious that the witness experience is very complicated and
full of unknowns.  The vast majority of witness accounts describe perceptions
and experiences far stranger than any reported by mainstream abduction
researchers.  Do not rule out what a witness tells you because it has a high
strangeness level.  Because we do not know what is true, we must not edit
testimony or it becomes absolutely worthless.  When reporting witness
testimony, do not try to make it seem credible and believable.  Rather, expose
it as it really is.  Unless we do this we have no chance at all of getting at
the truth.

HYPNOSIS: Information from a regressed subject is sometimes used in the
context of other evidence, but it is not itself evidence.  Because regressed
testimony of UFO witnesses cannot currently by confirmed by hard facts, there
remains enormous difficulty with trying to use hypnotized testimony as
evidence of real events, even when that testimony agrees in particulars among
a group of unconnected witnesses.  The primary value of hypnosis is as a
counseling device.  It is recommended that nobody except a professionally
trained hypnotist - preferably one with the credentials of a health
professional - hypnotize any UFO witness for any reason, and then only for
therapeutic purposes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A continuing       MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
series for the    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Investigator           The Investigator's Edge, Number 9
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                 [Note: Article Contributed By Colorado MUFON]
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                       WHAT'S MY TRAFFIC ?

By Ken Spencer
January 27, 1991

Civilian aircraft are directed and guided through the skies over
the United States from take-off to landing by way of an extremely
sophisticated air traffic control system.  Much of this system is
supported with a network of air traffic control facilities under
the auspices of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).  Here
in Colorado, an airliner departing from Denver can expect to be
in communications with several facilities during the course of
its flight.  These air traffic control facilities perform several
functions, not the least of which is to assist the pilot in
maintaining a safe clearance between other aircraft.   The job
for both the air traffic controller and the pilot is usually made
easier and safer when radar is available.  Radar, however, is not
a full proof system and by no stretch of the imagination
guarantees a pilot or a controller that a vehicle, known or
unknown can be identified.

In order to acquire a better understanding of just what I mean,
let's take a brief minute to educate ourselves about radar.
Radar, an acronym from a term originating during World War II, is
short for radio detection and ranging.  It's an electronic system
by which radio waves are bounced off of an object in order to
determine its existence and to locate its position in relation to
other objects.  The radio waves that are transmitted by a radar
antenna, when bounced off of an object such as an aircraft are
returned to the antenna and through electronic technology
"painted" on a cathode ray tube.  Unfortunately, target detection
is often hampered by  "clutter" which is picked up on the radar
screen.  This "clutter" can be raindrops generated by a
thunderstorm, back-scatter from the ground, or even flocks of
birds.  In order for an air traffic controller to perform his job
and detect aircraft more effectively, radar engineers have
designed a means by which the "clutter" can be suppressed.
Suppressing this "clutter" unfortunately also affects the ability
of a controller to see targets on the radar screen.  Further
advancements in radar technology as well as a necessity to
provide more positive identification of aircraft has required
that the air traffic system be modified.  This modification has
meant that aircraft flying in most types of controlled airspace
are required by the FAA to have a device which transmits an
assigned identification code and altitude information.  This
device is called a transponder.

If you paid a visit to the Denver Center, which is located in
Longmont, Colorado, you would have a first hand opportunity to
experience how traffic is identified and controlled within the
more than 200,000 square mile area under the facility's
jurisdiction. An aircraft departing the Denver Stapleton airport
would enter the airspace controlled by Denver Center shortly
after take-off.  Through electronic technology, the aircraft is
painted as a target on a cathode ray tube used by the
controller.  From each symbol he is able to determine the
aircraft identification (United 200, Delta 100 etc.), the
altitude of the aircraft, and a multitude of other data to assist
him with his job.  If you were to listen in on his or her
conversation, you might hear the pilot's transmission: "Denver
Center this is American 3375 at flight level three seven zero
(37,000 feet), I have high speed traffic at my 3 o'clock position
(to the right of the aircraft) approximately 5 miles, at my
altitude, WHAT'S MY TRAFFIC ? "  The controller would peer at the
scope, notice the American Airlines MD-80 symbol, but see nothing
resembling a blip or target anywhere near the aircraft.  His
response would be: "American 3375, I have no traffic at your 3
o'clock position ".  The response from the pilot might be:
"Denver Center my traffic is now at my 9 o'clock position,
appears to be a black, odd shaped object without any discernible
markings moving at a high rate of speed. "  The controller might
say: " American 3375, I have no traffic at your 9'o'clock
position ".

With the seemingly endless amount of information available to the
air traffic controller, you would think that a situation like
this might not be possible. However, this occurs more often than
one might think.  The target viewed on the CRT at Denver Center
is computerized video data and not raw radar.  The information is
gathered from several radar antennas scattered throughout the
state of Colorado and fed into a central computer.  It is then
displayed as a target symbol on the CRT.  If an unidentified
aircraft, such as one without a transponder, or one using stealth
technology wanders into controlled airspace, a controller may not
pick the aircraft up on his scope.  There are several reports
where aircraft have penetrated controlled airspace without
notifying the controlling agency.  Aircraft of unknown origin,
believe it or not, moving at high rates of speed, maneuvering in
a manner not readily associated with anything known to man have
been seen by pilots without the benefit of radar identification.
In fact, Denver Center recently (December 29, 1990) contacted
Colorado MUFON regarding a similar incident reported by a pilot
in the airspace above Colorado.


We all share the same interest and continue to search for a
solution to the UFO enigma.  In this instance, we were contacted
by a government agency.  However, for every incident where
government support is freely provided, there are many situations
where it is not.  This is generally the result of preserving
confidentiality, or as a controller recently indicated to me, not
being free to release information because of government policy.
Never the less, field investigators must pursue every reasonable
avenue to gather and document whatever he or she learned for
inclusion in the case report and, for the record.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Note - This article is a slightly expanded and modified version
of an article appearing in the "Colorado MUFON News" ,
November/December 1990 issue.  Also appearing in the same issue
is a summary of the incident which is referred to in this article
regarding a daytime sighting made by an airline pilot over
southern Colorado.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


For Field          Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network   Copyright 1991
Investigators     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~    Mutual UFO
                        THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE, No. 10           Network
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        AIRCRAFT LIGHTS: An Explanation
By Ken Spencer         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
March 2, 1991

Aircraft lights come in different sizes, shapes, and are used for several
different purposes.  When first developed,  aircraft lights were designed to
fulfill the same purpose as lights originally installed on boats or ships.  A
sailor observing a ship moving on the open waters at night found it difficult
to determine its direction of travel or its position relative to his own.  In
the interest of safety, lights were located on the port side (left), starboard
side (right), and one at the stern (aft) end of the ship.  The colors of the
lights were red, green and white respectively.  That way an individual
observing the ship from a distance would be able to easily determine how the
ship was positioned relative to the individual and also determine its
direction of travel.  The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) require that
aircraft have position or navigational lights configured in the same manner.
As the pilot faces forward in the cockpit, he would find a green light on his
right wing tip, a red light on his left wing tip and a white light on the
tail.  These position lights are required to be on for all operations, ground
and flight, between the hours of official sunset and sunrise.

Aside from the position or navigational lights, a variety of other lights are
found on aircraft which may be of interest to those of us involved in the
field of U.F.O.  Investigations.  Let's take a minute to look at some of
these lights, their location on an aircraft and the situations under which
they might be used.  We need to bear in mind, as we examine these lighting
systems, that aircraft vary in size and type of operation.  We will therefore
restrict our examination to the more common lighting systems associated with
conventional aircraft.


ANTICOLLISION LIGHTS

Anticollision lights are used primarily to assist in assuring that an aircraft
is readily seen while on the ground or in flight.  These lights are generally
mounted in the wing tips not far from the position lights.  With most airline
operated aircraft these lights are white and are generally of the strobe
variety.   Another type of anticollision light is red, (strobe, flashing,
oscillating or rotating beacon type) and is located on top and/or underneath
the fuselage (main body structure) of the aircraft.  These lights are
generally on for all operations, ground and flight, day and night, below
18,000 feet.  At night these lights are kept on regardless of altitude.


LANDING LIGHTS

The aircraft landing lights are used for both illumination of the
landing/take-off area as well as for collision avoidance in flight.  Landing
lights, depending on the size and type of aircraft, can be mounted in a number
of locations.  They can be located in the left and right leading edge of the
wings, on the nose gear strut, or in some cases are extended below the wings.
In the case of most airline operations these lights are generally on from
the time a takeoff clearance is issued until the aircraft reaches 18,000 feet
or from 18,000 feet until the aircraft clears the runway after landing.


RUNWAY TURNOFF LIGHTS

Runway turnoff lights, sometimes referred to as taxi lights, visually assist
the pilot at night when maneuvering between the terminal and the runway.
These lights are either mounted on the leading edge of the wings, on the nose
gear strut or some location which will provide sufficient illumination in
front of the aircraft.  These lights are rarely operated while the aircraft is
in flight unless they are an integral part of the landing light system or
unless the pilot deems it necessary for safety reasons (i.e. additional
collision avoidance).


WING LIGHTS

In order to assist the pilot in viewing a section of the wing or engine
nacelles (engine enclosures), lights are flush mounted in the fuselage and
pointed outward in the appropriate direction.  These lights would be operated
by the pilot when he wishes to inspect the wing section or engine in the event
of an abnormal situation such as icing or structural damage.


LOGO LIGHTS

Marketing people are always looking for creative ways to advertise or promote
a product.  With the airline industry, one such creative genius led to the use
of logo lights on aircraft.  These lights are usually mounted in the
horizontal stabilizer (horizontal part of the tail) pointing in the direction
of the vertical stabilizer (vertical part of the tail).  Besides illuminating
the logo on the tail of the aircraft, the pilot uses the logo lights for an
additional means of collision avoidance.  Most of the airlines require that
the logo lights, if installed and operational, be turned on continuously
between sunset and sunrise.


UTILITY LIGHTS

A number of other exterior lights may be installed on an aircraft such as
cargo door lights and emergency evacuation lights.  The cargo door lights
illuminate the area around the cargo compartment and are generally used to
assist cargo/ramp agents in loading cargo into the aircraft.  The normal
procedure is to extinguish these lights once the cargo operation has been
completed.  Another set of lights, sometimes called evacuation lights, are
used to assist passengers during an emergency evacuation from the aircraft.
These are usually flush mounted into the fuselage of the aircraft adjacent to
a passenger door or emergency exit.  These lights are used to illuminate the
evacuation area and are generally set to automatically energize in the event
of an emergency.

As I indicated early on in this article, most of the light configurations
described here are applicable to conventional aircraft.  These lighting
systems may vary slightly depending on the type of aircraft, the manufacturer,
and the kind of operating environment.  If, as an investigator, a witness
observes a lighting system typical to what was presented here, there is always
the possibility that the object may be an aircraft.  On the other hand, we
need to document, in sufficient detail, the observation regardless of whether
it coincides with an aircraft lighting system or not, for the record.



=END=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For MUFON          MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network   Copyright 1991
Field             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~    Mutual UFO
Investigators          The Investigator's Edge, No. 11           Network
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            TEMPORAL LOBE EPILEPSY
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By Robert J. Durrant

[Note: Mr. Durrant is a member and contributing writer for the New Jersey
MUFON Chapter, and current State Section Director for Mercer County.]

Epilepsy...a chronic nervous disease, characterized by fits, occurring at
intervals and attended by convulsive motions of the muscles and loss of
consciousness.  So says the dictionary, and the man-on-the-street would agree.

The sort of epilepsy described above results from irregular electrical
functioning in those parts of the brain that control many of the muscles.  As
the ability to monitor the brain's electrical activity developed, it became
obvious that other parts of the brain are similarly prone to the haphazard
currents that produce the physical, convulsive type of epilepsy.  Of
particular interest to this discussion is epilepsy of the temporal lobes of
the brain.  These areas control what is often called the "higher functions" of
the brain/mind.  That is, "..accessing declarative memory, the conscious or
active recall of not only what was learned but when and where it was acquired,
and with attributing personal meaning or significance to the constant stream
of sensory input."

What happens when this portion of the brain suffers an epileptic event?  The
subject does not thrash about---the temporal lobe doesn't have any connection
with the muscles.  Instead, he tends to have experiences that could be called
mystical or paranormal, a sense of a very special purpose in life, or he
imbues unusual events with great and unrealistic meaning.  These are not just
vague and generalized feelings. Often they are extremely intense and at times
are described as "more real than real."

In some cases this form of epilepsy is so vivid and frequent that a formal
psychiatric and neurological diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy is possible.
But the usual case seems to present only occasional events.  As with any
medical condition, the person afflicted is not likely to seek help unless the
condition is painful or debilitating.  A positive diagnosis is possible, but a
negative diagnosis is speculative at best.  In other words, it is not within
the state of the art of today's medical technology to say definitely that nay
given patient does not have temporal lobe epilepsy.

Whitley Strieber, author of Communion, Transformation, and Majestic, underwent
two series of tests for temporal lobe epilepsy.  Both were negative.  Per the
remarks above, and by his own admission, that still leaves open the option
that he does suffer from the condition.  But it would indicate that the
condition occurs only sporadically, if at all.  It is certainly to Strieber's
credit that he went to such lengths to preclude a psychiatric foundation for
his abduction experiences.  In addition to the general symptoms listed above,
there exists a set of quite intriguing specific symptoms of temporal lobe
epilepsy.  They are as follows:

1. Paranormal/mystical experiences
2. Enhanced imaginings (especially from childhood)
3. Widening affect
4. Vestibular (floating, low frequency vibration) sensations
5. Anomalous smells
6. Intense episodes of personal meaning

With this set of symptoms in mind, I reviewed the three Strieber books related
to UFO's and abductions.  My goal was to determine if there exists in that
body of writing a clearly repeated emphasis on these topics.  Communion and
it's sequel Transformation can fairly be said to be continuous reiterations of
symptoms 1,2,3,4 (floating) and 6.  Majestic is a fictionalized rendering of
the Roswell crash and it's aftermath.  It should be distinguished from the
previous two books, which are veridical and autobiographical.  One would
expect to find that Majestic presents few, if any, of the temporal lobe
symptoms.  This on the theory that the autobiographical abduction accounts
were produced subsequent to epileptic events, but that the deliberate fiction
writing would be free of the symptomology.

My analysis shows that most of the symptoms are present in greatly reduced
intensity in Majestic compared with the previous books.  But oddly, symptom 4
is there in complete form, with both floating as well as low frequency
vibrations, and so is symptom 5, which is nearly absent in the earlier works,
but here erupts repeatedly, indeed, so common are references to these two
symptoms in Majestic that I have systematically culled them out of the text
and listed them serially below.  Perhaps their concatenated, seemingly
obsessive use is merely a literary device.  certainly Strieber is a master of
the thriller, and I will defer to him on this point, but it does seem strained
and unnatural to my eye.  The simple interpretation of this analysis is that
Strieber is clearly suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy.  As with everything
else in UFOlogy, and particularly the abduction phenomenon, quick judgments
are dangerous.

Several other optional interpretations are possible, and I will summarize them
here with the understanding that in future articles they will be expanded.
First, that most if not all persons who have close encounters with UFO's
suffer, among a variety of other physiological effects, disruption of the
electrical functions of the brain, including the temporal lobe area.  because
of the peculiarities of the temporal lobe, "flashbacks" can occur throughout
life after the initial triggering event.  It is unlikely that monitoring of
the electrical pulses of the brain would reveal the irregularities associated
with clinical diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy.  Second, it may be that
external means of controlling or communicating with the temporal lobe regions
is the means by which the aliens deal with abductees.  In addition to the
positive communications or signals, the process may well include generation of
"noise" both during the communication and, per the remarks above, long after
the communications.

This option may seem absurdly speculative, but in fact it is based on
laboratory work that has been carried out for several years.  Subjects have
had their temporal lobes excited by external electromagnetic radiations, with
the result that many of them experience visions and sensations remarkably
similar to the standard abduction.  This will also be covered in detail in
future articles.

=END=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                   MUFONET-BBS network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                               HANGNAIL, MAYBE!
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Contributed by Georgia MUFON]

The next time you have one of those UFO sightings...in addition to looking at
the UFO...note the time...direction...and stick your arm out straight forward
toward the object with hand up fingers apart palm outward.  Those aliens will
think your waving at them.  In reality you will be comparing the size of the
craft to the size of your fingernails and determining the azimuth of the craft
by seeing how many outstretched hands you can put between the horizon and the
craft.

Your little finger nail is about the size of an aspirin....and when aimed at
the moon will just about cover it.  The size of your thumb nail is twice that
size.  By knowing the distance from your eyes to your outstretched hand (take
a yard stick and measure it)...and estimating the distance between you and the
object...and using a little trigonometry, it is possible for you to determine
the size of the object.  Knowing the size of the object can be very helpful in
the field investigation to follow.
=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: APRO contact
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 04:22:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Beddow) writes:
>Distribution:world
>
>Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO?
>
>They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a
>
>few years ago and I wonder what happened to it.
>
>-Jeff

I believe that APRO died along with Coral and Jim Lorentzen, when
they passed away a few years ago. You might ask Mike Corbin if he
has Allen Benz's address, as he may still have some of their files.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Later)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 21:26:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: J.B. Later
Distribution: usa
Organization: WINCO
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:

>Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to
>aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting
>to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge?


Someone else mentioned a while back about there being a noticeable increase
in the amount of advertising on television which used "aliens and UFO's"
as props or "themes".  I guess I just dismissed this at first, and then last
night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO"
theme.  I was kind of surprised!  In fact, I think part of the "plot" of
the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"?  Anyone else catch this ad?
Is it greater awareness on the public's part, or ARE we
being "conditioned"???  I find that the more research and reading I do
regarding this subject, the more difficult it becomes to stay "objective"
about the topic!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff B. Later WB7TZA   ([e-mail])  Later's Law Of Social Dynamics:
"For Every Action, There Is An Opposite and UNequal OVEReaction!"  {8^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
****************"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!"*****************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!hsdndev!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 23:19:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 40

this is a followup to a 2-week old topic: Roswell

Something just occurred to me; if you *really* want to make a stab at
producing physical evidence, you should get a team of geologist/chemist
types which include interested and (more or less) "objective" individuals
and run a big soil analysis on the crash site.  I don't care how many g.i.'s
you have combing a field, if there are particles that are sand-sized or
smaller, I'd be willing to bet that there would be *something* still there,
even after 45 years (after all, how do the archeologists and geologists get
away with their claims about irridium dust from asteriod impacts by looking
at a few sea-floor drilling cores?).  Run all sorts of micro-spectroscopy
and electron micrography tests, compare them with supposedly normal soil
samples from all over the place, and let a statistical analysis of the
results say if there are any weird foil-compounds there.

If something is found, I imagine that the govt would be all but compelled to
reveal what they have.  If not, I suppose you would hear some fancy
explanations that THEY went and replaced a few square miles of topsoil to
prevent any detection (given *working* nanotechnology, I suppose this is
actually possible, but it seems to me that whoever "THEY" are, they aren't
careful or scrupulous enough to confiscate ALL evidence, erase ALL memories,
or retrieve ALL particles from a disintegrated vehicle).

* * * "and now for something completely different" * * *

while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the
notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff:  anyone who is capable
of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so
anyone who uses that excuse should be moved to the bottom of the credibility
tree.  I will be happy to explain my reasoning to any who require it, but
right now, I've still got half of this newsgroup to page through :-)

je<FF>
--
"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves,
only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that
there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 03:29:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

[.. i'm forced to delete stuff, inews wont let me include more lines than I
write myself.  Goddamn right-wing netiquette busybody software! ]

> heard that the aliens in CETK were based on abduction accounts.  (I've also
> heard that some of the spacecraft were based on the Bentwaters case, which
> incidentally is going to be the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries"
> complete with effects by ILM.)

WOAH! waitaminit!!  Close Encounters was put out in the late seventies
(wasnt it 78?)  A couple of articles back, I read that Bentwater happened at
the end of 1980.  Kill the rumor!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Aug 91 14:51:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <axolotl.683039890@syzygy>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25

In article <axolotl.683039890@syzygy> [e-mail] (Iain D. Sinclair) writes:
>In this new hardback I flick-read in a store today, apparently
>a 'grey' wandered into some Spanish doctor's office and asked for
>an examination. It looked nearly human, except on close examination.
>It then proceeded to tell the doc that humanity is really screwing up
>our environment, and that you should stop, and we're telling you
>this because the important people won't listen.

I doubt it was a grey.    Sounds more like the kind of thing the New Age
people keep going on about.

(Besides, we don't really need aliens to tell us that we're trashing the
planet.  It's evident to anyone with half a brain.)

>(The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.)

Must be _Alien Liaisons_ by Tim Good.  I haven't read it yet, and at this
rate I'm not sure I *want* to!  (_Above Top Secret_ was excellent,
however.)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms    *| for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |**[e-mail]***|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!clarkbr
From: [e-mail] (CLARK BRIAN R)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 05:24:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 34
Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:
>this is a followup to a 2-week old topic: Roswell
>
>...bunch o' stuff deleted...

>* * * "and now for something completely different" * * *
>
>while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the
>notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff:  anyone who is capable
>of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so
>anyone who uses that excuse should be moved to the bottom of the credibility
>tree.  I will be happy to explain my reasoning to any who require it, but
>right now, I've still got half of this newsgroup to page through :-)
>
>je<FF>
>--
>"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves,
>only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that
>there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser
>
>[e-mail]
>[e-mail]


    I would very much like to hear the reasoning behind your statement that
    if an alien culture could master interstellar travel, then they would
    have no problems with respect to food or medicine.

    Thanks - Brian


--
    "Humor is the contemplation of the finite from the point of view of the
    infinite."  - Christian Morgenstern  (1871-1914)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!bruce!monu0.cc.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre
From: [e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 03:44:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1862 alt.conspiracy:6756

[e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:

>In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation,
>would you like to buy some Russian Farmland?

>Scott

<<<* Only if it's near Chernobyl. No flames...I had a laugh instead.*>>>
     B->
     GRE.
>>
>>
>>  ___________________________________________________________________
>>|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
>>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]                  ||
>>||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> ||
>>||___________________________________________________________________||
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>  ___________________________________________________________________
>>|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
>>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]                  ||
--

  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Teachings by an alien visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Aug 91 08:15:24 GMT
Lines: 96

We will now examine the different civilisations of the universe, and
in particular the higher evolved inhabitants.

The advancement level of different planets can be divided in three
classes. Each class consist of many planets, and many civilisations.

Class 1 planets:
This inhabitants of these planetary systems are to most advanced in
this universe. They are in general aware of the "geografi" of the
whole universe, and have also a supervisory status of the universe.

They don't have your kind of technology, but rather you would call it
"biological technology".

Everything is highly beautiful, on these planets. All houses are like
palaces, and all forests are like gardens. It is so nice that some of
you humans call it "heaven", and look at it as a final destination.
There are indeed inhabitants with wings there. There are also those
playing instruments and dancing. In general, the situation is pretty
peaceful there, and everyone is busy having a "nice" time.

Maybe what would interest you most, are the humanoid inhabitants.
Their main duties are as actors, musicians, dancers and prostitutes.
This is indeed a paradise for humans.  No sicknesses, no
problems, everything taken care of. Although they are considered lower
class, they are still completely free persons.
They sometimes travel to earth for tourism, like you sometimes visit,
for example, african tribes.
Occasionally they contact humans, for fun. But beware, they generally
look on you as animals, and can be pretty nasty, or play jokes with you.
Some can also be friendly.
They have weapons very superior to yours, so trying to attack them
makes you no good.

The higher class inhabitants are of more serious nature. Although they
are even more elevated than the humanoid, they don't bother you. They
have powers to stop natural catastrophes, and the weather, and might
in general help you in different ways. That is part of their duties,
in the administration of the universe. But you cannot see them,
unless they show themselves to you.
If you are lucky enought to meet one, it is a great favour for you.

They don't visit your earth planet, since they know what is going on
there, without going there in person.

These planetary system lives in another, what you would call,
"space-time", than you. One day of their time, is around one year of
yours. If you could travel there, you would also live according to
their time. But humans are strictly forbidden to visit. Only a very
few cases are known.

Enjoyment in these planets is ample. In fact, you might call them
"the planets of enjoyment". Sex-life is completely free (with humans),
and very rarely brings children. They also drink intoxicants which are
wastly superior to yours, and have no ill effect on their bodies.

You might call the inhabitants "Godly". Althought some of you humans
think that they are gods, they themselves know the real God.


Class 2 planets:
You earth planet, and civilisation, belongs to this class. There are
more planets in this class also. Some more advanced than you, some
less. These planets are often lumped together in one group, and are
called "the planets of death".
You know these planets well, so I won't say any more.


Class 3 planets:
The technology of these planets are of your kind, but much more
developed than yours. Some have spaces-ships and space travel all over
the universe (execept for to the class 1 planets, where they are
forbidden to go). The mentality of the inhabitants is quite cruel, and
not very friendly to you. Some have humans for food. They are
constantily in war, inbetween themselves, and also with those from the
Class 1 planets. If you came in war with them, they would easily crush
you, since their weapons are far superior to yours. They might involve
themselves with your dealings, but would probably rather help a
dictator to win power, than to help for your "people".

Some inhabitants are humanoid, but others have all kind of forms. Some
you would would call insect-like, other bird-like, or snake-like.
There are also different classes of inhabitants. Many are slaves to
the ruling masters.

The level of enjoyment is higher than yours, but lower than that from
the highest systems. They constantly drink alcohol, and similar
intoxiants, and get a lot of children out of their sex-life.

They are all God-denying. Some don't have any concept of God, others
have, but hate Him.

--
-- Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 16:08:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1864 alt.conspiracy:6761
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
                                 [...]
>_The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the
>quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that
>failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed
>up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the
>projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The
                                 [...]
>In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation,
>would you like to buy some Russian Farmland?

Scott, (evidently a legend in your own mind, from your user-ID)

You really should make an effort to read a book before telling people what it
contains.  "The Late Great Planet Earth" has nothing to do with Nostradamus.
The book was written by Hal Lindsey, an Evangelical Christian, who would be
horrified if he knew someone thought he gave any validity to Nostradamus
(Evangelicals are quite touchy about occult and psychic predictions).

The book is entirely devoted to attempting to interpret apocryphal writings in
the Bible.  None of the predictions you mentioned are suggested in the book.
The Bible gives no dates, and neither does Lindsey's book.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: authors that write back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 19:07:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

Apparently I was hasty with my conclusion that authors do not write back:) I
 received today a letter from Ray Fowler; he included the names of area
MUFON State Directors for Indiana. So, if anyone has thought of writing, and
written, and has concluded the authors do not write back, think again. They
do write back--it just takes more than a little time.


--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob
From: [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circles. The Ickleton Mandelbrot
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 08:21:06 GMT
Sender: @aixssc.ibm.co.uk
Organization: AIX Systems Support Centre, UK.
Lines: 69
Originator: [e-mail]


                The Ickleton Mandelbrot
                -----------------------


        A strange formation appeared the night of August 11/12 in a
        wheatfield on a hill top 10 miles south of Cambridge, England.
        The was reported to be a heart-shaped formation but on closer
        observation found it to be far more than any "normal" crop
        circle.

        This new formation was in fact a Mandelbrot ! and was 100 yards
        in length. A colleague of mine visited the site and confirmed
        that the formation was in fact, as near as possible, a complete
        Mandelbrot set. The large cartoid component was about 120ft across,
        tangential to this was a circle of 47ft diameter and on top of this
        again a 16ft circle. Attached to each side of the cardoid was three
        smaller unequal circles, the size of each matching its partner on
        the opposite side of the cartoid. Tiny circles also existed and
        were attached to the outside of the centre ones and also on the
        47ft circle. These tiny circles were as small as 16 inches and
        were attached to the main body and mirrored about the central axis.
        I have viewed a computer  program that creates this Mandelbrot Set
        and all circles and conponents were found to be exactly placed.

        Presumed at first to be an elaborate hoax perpetrated by mathematic
        students at Cambridge University this was denied by them. Each
        circle was perfect and was swirled in a clockwise direction even
        down to a single stalk in the centre of the cartoid. Ariel photographs
        have been taken by my colleague but unfortunately on returning the
        next day he found that the farmer had driven his combine harvester
        straight through the formation destroying this fantastic work of art.
        I understand that copies of these photos are on their way to
        Benoit B. Mandelbrot, a research fellow at IBM Yorktown Heights, NY.
        who from work with fractal geometry and the mathematical study of
        forms having a fractional dimension has termed the Mandelbrot Set.
        Fractal geometry is used in the study of chaos and also in the study
        of growth patterns in the natural world.

        For those of you that like the heavy stuff on Mandelbrot here it is:

        From "Scientific American" August 1985..

        "The Mandelbrot set broods in silent complexity at the centre of a
        vast two-dimensional sheet of numbers called the complex plane.
        When a certain operation is applied repeatedly to the numbers, the
        ones outside the set flee to infinity and the numbers inside remain
        to drift or dance about. Close to the boundary minutely choreographed
        wanderings mark the onset of instability. Here is an infinite regress
        of detail which astonishes us with its variety, its complexity and
        its strange beauty."

        This fantastic and unexplainable formation was feature with
        a photograph in 26 August 1991 "Sunday Telegraph" and one can
        see from the photograph that it really is very precise.
        If anyone has a Mandelbrot computer graphics program I strongly
        suggest that you run it and view the end result because it is so
        similar to the Ickleton Mandelbrot its unreal.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                          DISCLAIMER:                              |
| The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view     |
| nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my      |
| own personal views on this subject .                              |
|                                                                   |
| Robert Trevelyan            UKnet: [e-mail] |
| AIX Communications             VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2     |
|                     Voice: [phone]     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: Dreams.txt - Dream or vision of things to come?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 21:36:49 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 33


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes...
>
>    I have related the events listed above as  part of something  that I
>    feel the need to do. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I
>    am not a prophet of  doom  or,  like some others,  trying to line my
>    pockets by pretending to be some kind of authority.  I am just a guy
>    that seems to have been thrust into an unusual  circumstance. Ignore
>    it?  no chance. I am sure that I have had these dreams. Whether they
>    reflect reality or not remains to  be  seen.  At this point I merely
>    know what I know.  I  have come to  accept what has occurred  and am
>    continuing my life.  I refuse to go to the mat and  try  to convince
>    anyone that what has occurred is real.  If you chose  to not believe
>    it,  so be it.  If you choose to believe that what I have related is
>    true, so be it. I know that it occurred. Since that time I have done
>    a  lot of  reading and learning  about  the  UFO  community  and the
>    promoters and the nay-sayers.  I am certain that I will be de-bunked
>    and called a phony and all the rest.  Confidentially, I don't give a
>    ragged rats ass. I know what I know.
>
>    Randy Terpstra
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you, Randy.

Welcome to Armageddon.

---
Mary Stanley    "What a long strange trip it's been"
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 23:59:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 58
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1868 alt.conspiracy:6768

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve
Warren) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the
>Great) writes:
>                                 [...]
>>_The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the
>>quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that
>>failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed
>>up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the
>>projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The
>                                 [...]
>>In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation,
>>would you like to buy some Russian Farmland?
>
>Scott, (evidently a legend in your own mind, from your user-ID)

A legend?  Hah, I'm a whole damned mythology!

>You really should make an effort to read a book before telling people what it
>contains.  "The Late Great Planet Earth" has nothing to do with Nostradamus.
>The book was written by Hal Lindsey, an Evangelical Christian, who would be
>horrified if he knew someone thought he gave any validity to Nostradamus
>(Evangelicals are quite touchy about occult and psychic predictions).
>
>The book is entirely devoted to attempting to interpret apocryphal writings in
>the Bible.  None of the predictions you mentioned are suggested in the book.
>The Bible gives no dates, and neither does Lindsey's book.
>--
>
>--Sleeve  --:--    (See I can deface names too...)
>  Coat ->//|:|\\
>

We're not talking about the book, we're talking about the Shick-Sun Classic
Flick made around 1978-1980.  As I remember they incorporated material from
Nostrodamus' quatrains into a really shoddy prediction of doom, gloom and
futility that would be upon us by the late '80's.  Did Lindsey make up all
his blather from the Apocrypha or was it mostly from Revelations?  After all,
the Apocrypha are probably the writings of Satan in the eyes of an evangelist,
as are I bet The Gnostic Gospels, though I'd like to be wrong about that...
Another highlight was a supposed computer search of names for the anti-christ,
which I guess they never found.

Though come to think of it, you may be right, there may have been YET another
Schick-Sun Classic epic devoted to Nostrodamus.  Anyone out there remember the
details?  The highlight of the whole thing was the Blue Turban's way cool
war room where he launched his attack on "The New City "=New York City...
According to the flick, war was to commence soon after Halley's Comet passed,
I think it was even supposed to still be viewable in the opening rounds.
Ultimately, all hell was supposed to break loose by 1994 when New York City
got toasted...

My apologies if there were indeed two such movies, but then again, only
a real weenie would get offended by something so trivial.  Are you
a weenie?

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!liv-cs!liv!sapt99
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: HELPING THE SOVIET ECONOMY+ space travel and NATO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 01:26:05 GMT
Organization: University of Liverpool
Lines: 62
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>
Xref: ns-mx soc.culture.soviet:1516 alt.alien.visitors:1869

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Geir Egil Hauge) says:
>
>A very actual question now is: How can we help Soviet to get their ecomomy up
>from the ditch?
>
>- Is it a solution to give them food?
>- Is it a solution to lend them much money?
>
>No, I don't think so. It would make Soviet a third world country, and we have
>already helped the third world countries in beeing third world countries for a
>pretty long time.
>

I agree. That saying with the fish or fishing rod you give to a hungry
man is very true. The third world got fish .. The Soviet Union is the
 richest country in the world. Potentially.
Except if ,as it seems, it falls to pieces that are hostile to each other
and don't cooperate..

>
>As a final wish: Soviet must become a member of NATO, and NATO must be tightly
>bound to the UN. This could make our earth secure for thousands of years.
>People that have their work in NATO don't need to worry about their jobs.
>There are enough work to be done by saving our earth from possible enemies
>from the space. It seems unlikely that we're the only intelligent
>civilization in the universe. Visitors from the space could be just as warlike
>as us, and even worse.
>
I don't think that the NATO is a panacea to secure the forever lasting
world peace. Just because of that it was successful in winning the Cold War
it won't work as a universal savior of our unrestful Earth. The powers
always act as their interests and the forces of history (now the complete
failure of the Communist economic system) guide them.. Sort of a Darwin
theory for human societies..

 As  fora threat from outer space, I do like reading good sci-fi very
much indeed,but regarding our understanding the physics of Nature
(BTW, I'm a physics student) space travelling between stars excludes
the practical possibility of making war.. I doubt that a civilisation
would send spacecrafts to seek out and destroy other civilisations.
A ship must travel for many,many years. The nearest star ,apartfrom
ours, is four and a half light years away.. If there are other
intelligent life forms then they are either too far away ( a distance
of 1000 years ,although it is a flea jump on cosmical scale, means
that it is extremely unlikely these civilisations have anything to do
with each other. Not to mention that the Universe is a unimaginably
huge hay stack.. Furthermore I believe that our technical civilisation
will not last more than a couple of thousand years *at most*.( This is
 optimism. :) )
(A simple extrapolation of the last 1000 years..)

Avante! Romantic souls, flame me! Followers of Daniken, kill me!
Idealists, crucify me!


>---
>Geir Egil Hauge,
>student at the Institute for Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway.


Miklos
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban,alt.fractals
Subject: Re: Crop Circles. The Ickleton Mandelbrot
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 03:03:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 63
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1870 alt.folklore.urban:22549 alt.fractals:1641

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan) writes:
>                The Ickleton Mandelbrot
>                -----------------------
>        A strange formation appeared the night of August 11/12 in a
>        wheatfield on a hill top 10 miles south of Cambridge, England.
>        The was reported to be a heart-shaped formation but on closer
>        observation found it to be far more than any "normal" crop
>        circle.
>
>        This new formation was in fact a Mandelbrot ! and was 100 yards
>        in length. A colleague of mine visited the site and confirmed
>        that the formation was in fact, as near as possible, a complete
>        Mandelbrot set. The large cartoid component was about 120ft across,
>        tangential to this was a circle of 47ft diameter and on top of this
>        again a 16ft circle. Attached to each side of the cardoid was three
>        smaller unequal circles, the size of each matching its partner on
>        the opposite side of the cartoid. Tiny circles also existed and
>        were attached to the outside of the centre ones and also on the
>        47ft circle. These tiny circles were as small as 16 inches and
>        were attached to the main body and mirrored about the central axis.
>        I have viewed a computer  program that creates this Mandelbrot Set
>        and all circles and conponents were found to be exactly placed.

Actually, if it were a Mandelbrot set, it would not have "circles as
small as 16 inches"--they'd go down to infinitely small, no matter how
big the image is.  Any area of an M-set (except the interior, the part
which is usually colored black on the computer) will, if enlarged, show
an infinite number of miniature M-sets (deformed to various degrees.)

For instance, the "three smaller unequal circles" you mention above, if
you look at a GOOD picture of a Mandelbrot set from a computer, are
actually part of an INFINITE series of bubbles that are gradually
decreasing in size.

The entertaining thing about having them on the computer is that you can
keep enlarging the image, and every time you do, you can see more
detail, since the level of detail is infinite.  If the one in the field
really were an accurate M-set, you wouldn't be able to count how many
little bubbles were around it, but it would also have microscopically
fine tendrils going out all over the place, connected to smaller copies
of itself...

>        I understand that copies of these photos are on their way to
>        Benoit B. Mandelbrot, a research fellow at IBM Yorktown Heights, NY.
>        who from work with fractal geometry and the mathematical study of
>        forms having a fractional dimension has termed the Mandelbrot Set.

I expect he'll have a very good laugh over all this.  I did.

>        If anyone has a Mandelbrot computer graphics program I strongly
>        suggest that you run it and view the end result because it is so
>        similar to the Ickleton Mandelbrot its unreal.

It's similar in the way an octagon is similar to a circle.  Next time
they pull one of these pranks, they should pick a surface with infinite
resolution.  :-)
                        -- James "Kibo" Parry

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Aug 91 14:57:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:
>Something just occurred to me; if you *really* want to make a stab at
>producing physical evidence, you should get a team of geologist/chemist
>types which include interested and (more or less) "objective" individuals
>and run a big soil analysis on the crash site.  I don't care how many g.i.'s
>you have combing a field, if there are particles that are sand-sized or
>smaller, I'd be willing to bet that there would be *something* still there,

You know, there's something that bothers me about these crashes.  If the
saucers are made out of metal as strong as it's said to be, how did it get
blown apart?  Shouldn't any explosion have resulted in a relatively intact
saucer but a completely disintegrated crew?  (Unless maybe the saucers are
held together by some electromagnetic process, in which case the different
components would fall apart when it stopped.  But that seems like just
plain poor design.)

>while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the
>notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff:    anyone who is capable
>of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so

You would think so, especially if you buy the theory that they're doing
complex genetic engineering in the underground bases.  But then again, what
are they doing with the abductees?  Maybe we're dealing with an entire
demented species, which put all their energy into one scientific area but
hasn't made the necessary breakthroughs in others.

>"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves,
>only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that
>there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser

Sounds like the state of UFOlogy today!  No matter how ridiculous the
theory coming from the likes of Lear or Bennewitz, there always seems to be
*something* which is just possible enough to stick in my mind for years to
come.  The further the UFO, conspiracy, and free energy fields overlap, the
worse this gets.

--
uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 13:53:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 11

Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids
and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion
about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid
on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two
discussions? Inquiring minds want to know!

--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 15:13:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1873 alt.conspiracy:6771
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
                               [...]
>futility that would be upon us by the late '80's.  Did Lindsey make up all
>his blather from the Apocrypha or was it mostly from Revelations?  After all,
>the Apocrypha are probably the writings of Satan in the eyes of an evangelist,

Actually, "apocryphal writings in the Bible" is an oxymoron.  ;^)

What I *meant* to say was apocolyptic (as in apocolypse now).

>Though come to think of it, you may be right, there may have been YET another
>Schick-Sun Classic epic devoted to Nostrodamus.  Anyone out there remember the
>details?  The highlight of the whole thing was the Blue Turban's way cool
>war room where he launched his attack on "The New City "=New York City...

I remember this.  Wasn't Orson Wells the narrator?

Actually I wasn't commenting on the film.  In your post you appeared to be
stating that Lindsey's book was a Nostradamus interpretation.  Now I see that
you were just listing it in a series of objections to the film.  My mistake.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!waugh
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 16:17:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) says:
>
>Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids
>and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion
>about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid
>on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two
>discussions? Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Only if the aliens are Freemasons.

Brian Waugh                     |   "The deuce you say."
[e-mail]  |      Buckaroo Banzai
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 00:47:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 55

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>I heard on the news today that a famer in Columbia was abducted and had
>an implant placed in his shoulder. He says he has a message for
>President Bush. Did anyone else hear this? Does anyone know more?
>
>Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to
>aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting
>to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge?
>
>Any info would be appreicated. Please post so all can enjoy!
>
>

The commercials are getting slicker too..

In one, a well known Jeans commercials...it starts out with something
like "Have you seen the EBE's?" and then goes right into the rest of
the commercial without elaborating further..

A well known battery maker is putting out the older couple in front
of a vast pasture, where they are there ostensibly to capture UFO's
on film (message - make sure you got the BEST battery to do it)...
"Where's Wilbur?"

A well known Cereal maker...puts out a real fast intro blurb "The UFO's
have landed"..goes right into the rest of the commercial without any
further explanation..

A HARDEES commercial for their burgers...the car driving off in the last
few frames of the commercial...has "UFO" on NEVADA license plates...

These are just a FEW...I predict that they are going to get more involved
and slicker in the next few months :-)

Don







>
>--
>===============================================================================
>Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
>ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]
>===============================================================================


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!know!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 08:53:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 18
X-Comment-To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>Anti-evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but they are never
>able to present any evidence which survives serious scrutiny.  What
>evidence do you have, Mr Lindqvist?
Evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but when confronted
with the evidence, they just ignore it.

In any case, that discussion does not belong to this newsgroup.

I only say this:
You can lead a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink.



--
-- Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!cmcl2!panix!jsv
From: [e-mail] (Jason Verch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 20:49:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: PANIX - Public Access Unix Systems of NY
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids
>and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion
>about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid
>on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two
>discussions? Inquiring minds want to know!
>

  Nope, sorry but the pyramid is not the Great Pyramid, it is a pyramid with
an eye above it, it is a symbol of Freemasonry which is what most of the
symbols on the bill are derived from, other examples - 'E pluribus unum' is a
Masonic motto, the thirty-two feathers in the eagles right wing are the 32
earned rites of Freemasonry and the 33 on the left wing represent the earned
rites plus the 1 honorary degree.  The 9 tail feathers represent the 9 degrees
of the York Rite.  Many more, not alien.. but still some strange stuff!
Wanna know more just ask..
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!netcomsv!bryanw
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Woodworth)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997?  computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 02:00:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 13

A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.

Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
this.

nks.
:
--
Bryan Woodworth   Mail: [e-mail]
Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Keele
Keywords: where is he?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 03:11:07 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 11


Anyone know what happened to John Keele(ufo investigator)?

The last book I read of his was in early '70's called
the _mothman prophecies_. The book wasn't about prophecy
that I can remember but these creatures he encountered with
the appearance of half man half moth, and they stunk~~~~
Also, what of reports on creatures that have an odor of
burning sulfer(ceatures from hell?).

Thanks, barry olson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!mcnc!taco!eos.ncsu.edu!hsashbau
From: [e-mail] (HENRY S ASHBAUGH)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 02:38:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (HENRY S ASHBAUGH)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 3
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1880 alt.conspiracy:6778

Steve Warren has appearently forgotten that Nostrodamus was a Christrian
himself. For someone who isn't a prophet of God, he sure has a lot of ideas
about how his visions are supposed to be recieved.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!att!att!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 04:20:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 11



Hello,

It's obvious that PR advertizers employ all means of determining
what the latest "catch sequence" is rolling around. Today it's
ET's. Besides, who could contact all these ad people to start a
softening campaign for public consumption?
In conclusion, ad agencies get paid for results, what sells?

barry olson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:
>
>WOAH! waitaminit!!  Close Encounters was put out in the late seventies
>(wasnt it 78?)  A couple of articles back, I read that Bentwater happened at
>the end of 1980.  Kill the rumor!

Oops!  You're absolutely right.  I obviously wasn't thinking.

Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were based
on *something*.  I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter of
fact.  I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner.

--
uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com!rubio
From: [e-mail] (Stuart Rubio)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Summary: The difference between being laughed at and laughed with
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 03:00:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Later) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>
>>Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to
>>aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting
>>to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge?

Vouge...Since when does anyone really believe won avenue says in
a merchandizing ad?

>Someone else mentioned a while back about there being a noticeable increase
>in the amount of advertising on television which used "aliens and UFO's"
>as props or "themes".  I guess I just dismissed this at first, and then last
>night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO"
>theme.  I was kind of surprised!  In fact, I think part of the "plot" of
>the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"?  Anyone else catch this ad?

Cleverly done, yes?? But, why were you surprised by the existance of a comical
ad on network TV? Afterall, what else do they put on TV?

>Is it greater awareness on the public's part, or ARE we
>being "conditioned"???

Neither..They are trying to sell their product. They care less for the
informational content of the ad, and more for the fact that it stuck in
your mind.

>I find that the more research and reading I do
>regarding this subject, the more difficult it becomes to stay "objective"
>about the topic!


Most people with no logical reasoning capabilities would have this problem.
Objectivity is not something taught in college, which is not difficult to
understand when you look at the quality of the product of our educational
system over the past twenty years.

Tell me, if you fall down in the street, making a fool of yourself when
you try to get up, causing the crowd to laugh at you, are you being laughed
at by the crowd you have attracted, or are they laughing with you?

When advertizers use a subject that they do not understand, nor care
anything about, they are pointing their finger at you, laughing all
the way to the bank at those who remember their ad long enough to buy
their product. Are you part of the great unwashed, as they believe you
to be???

It really is time the public awakened to the fact that they are the
butt of the jokes made by politicians, through their indifference,
advertizers, in their disregard for the intelligence of their audience,
the TV industry, in general, since they show NO collective will to
show the public reality, and every clown with a doctorate, who is looking
for an easy buck, through Congress, to push his pet project.

Peace and long life,

Stuart
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From: [e-mail] (Stuart Rubio)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: HELPING THE SOVIET ECONOMY+ space travel and NATO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 03:45:27 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] (Geir Egil Hauge) says:
>>
>>A very actual question now is: How can we help Soviet to get their ecomomy up
>>from the ditch?

A better question to ask might be "should we interfere, by giving them
anything at all. Perhaps, it is in their own best interest to work out
their own problems by themselves. They seem to be doing quite well so
far. Let their people decide what it is they want from a government
that has abused them for seventy years, before you force them into
accepting the standards of the West to accomplish what theseek.

>>- Is it a solution to give them food?
>>- Is it a solution to lend them much money?

Exactly the point. You do not know what would work as a solution. So,
leave them alone long enough to make those decisions for themselves.

>>No, I don't think so. It would make Soviet a third world country, and we have
>>already helped the third world countries in beeing third world countries for a
>>pretty long time.

Give me a break. The Soviet Union was a conglomerate of nations force to
live under third world conditions. It will take a lot of work to undo
what Communism has done on this planet. Russia is a third world nation
in all capacities, except its nuclear arsenal. Is it not time that they
were allowed, as a people, the chance to develop and mature as a nation??

>That saying with the fish or fishing rod you give to a hungry
>man is very true. The third world got fish .. The Soviet Union is the
> richest country in the world. Potentially.

Really? The Soviet Union WAS a politically manufactured entity, held
together by brute force, in the worst sense of the term. As the U.S.S.R.,
the people had NO wealth, what-so-ever. Now, for the first time in this
century, the Russian PEOPLE have the opportunity to have some of that
POTENTIAL wealthy, in forms that will really do them some good. It is
time for them to decide that THAT IS what THEY want. The decision should
not be forced on them by the dictators in a single political party, nor
by well-intended by-standers, who think they know more about Russians
than Russians.

>Except if ,as it seems, it falls to pieces that are hostile to each other
>and don't cooperate..

Why can they not develop into a number of wealthy small countries, if
that is what their populations see as desirable? Why should they be
forced to stay a conglomerate, if that brings them only discontentedness??

>>As a final wish: Soviet must become a member of NATO, and NATO must be tightly
>>bound to the UN. This could make our earth secure for thousands of years.

Oh, please, IF the need for NATO, the need to protect the Western alliance
from the Soviet Union, is gone, which I personally do not see, as yet, then
there will ultimately be no need for NATO. It is a military organization,
yet a politically elected body.

And, the last ones who wanted their power to last a Thousand Years were
called NAZIs. No one seemed to like them very much, after a short while,
much less than their projected thousand years.

>>People that have their work in NATO don't need to worry about their jobs.
>>There are enough work to be done by saving our earth from possible enemies
>>from the space.

What bug-eyed monsters are you seeing under your bed at night? I sleep
perfectly well, thank you. Besides, human technology would be helpless
against any technology capable of reaching across the stars to us. You
had better pray that those potemtial aliens are friendly, and non-
interfering, less they prey on you...

>>It seems unlikely that we're the only intelligent
>>civilization in the universe. Visitors from the space could be just as warlike
>>as us, and even worse.

As I said, if this is the case, how much hope would we have of preventing
invading hordes from reaching us? We can not even convince ourselves to
cooperate long enough to get our collective rears off this mudball of a
planet. If anyone ever actually make formal contact with us, I doubt that
our fragile egos, and more fragile institutions, will survive it.

>I don't think that the NATO is a panacea to secure the forever lasting
>world peace. Just because of that it was successful in winning the Cold War
>it won't work as a universal savior of our unrestful Earth. The powers
>always act as their interests and the forces of history (now the complete
>failure of the Communist economic system) guide them.. Sort of a Darwin
>theory for human societies..
>
> As  fora threat from outer space, I do like reading good sci-fi very
>much indeed,but regarding our understanding the physics of Nature
>(BTW, I'm a physics student) space travelling between stars excludes
>the practical possibility of making war..

Please, let us not get too caught up with our own egotism over the petty
limits of our supposed knowledge of the workings of cosmic powers, or
superimpose our own limited knowledge on what other intelligences might
produce in the universe. Remember, please, the first step to wisdom is
to admit that we do not know all. The natural counterpart to that state-
ment is obviously that there is much that I do not understand. We hold
so few of the Cosmic Secrets of nature, it would not be wise to praise
too loudly what we "know".

>I doubt that a civilisation
>would send spacecrafts to seek out and destroy other civilisations.
>A ship must travel for many,many years. The nearest star ,apartfrom
>ours, is four and a half light years away.. If there are other
>intelligent life forms then they are either too far away ( a distance
                                             ------------ (?)
>of 1000 years ,although it is a flea jump on cosmical scale, means
>that it is extremely unlikely these civilisations have anything to do
>with each other. Not to mention that the Universe is a unimaginably
>huge hay stack.. Furthermore I believe that our technical civilisation
>will not last more than a couple of thousand years *at most*.( This is
> optimism. :) )
>(A simple extrapolation of the last 1000 years..)

Boy, don't you just love it when logic is applied to the search for a
solution to a question??? Where did you learn to predict the future
by assumptions made about the past. I suggest you go back to your
professors and ask them about jumping out over an abyss, since you
have just walked the last thousand miles without crossing the Grand
Canyon before this. Otherwise, I would like to ask you about the
Stock Market, a number of horse races, and a couple of loteries. If
you think you are good enough to predict the future of humanity, let
me have the benefit of your wisdom on these less-important matters,
that I am sure are beneath your infinite knowledge. It sure would
hold my attention.


Peace and long life,

Stuart
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!decabo.enet.dec.com!maximo!jkrump
From: [e-mail] (John Krumpotick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Keele
Keywords: where is he?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 04:44:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (John Krumpotick)
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 1

He now has a monthly column in FATE magazine.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.Berkeley.EDU!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: has there been a change in attitude amongst the grays?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 13:20:37 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 22

I'm not particularly well-read on the subject of UFOs etc (am currently
reading _Communion_ and Fiore's _Encounters_ (which is rather shoddy, IMHO)),
but something I wonder about: it seems that, over the years, people's reports
on alien motivations (esp. the gray's) have become more and more sinister.
I can't point to any specific examples to back this up, but there does seem
to be a dichotomy amongst abduction reports: some people claim to have been
helped/healed, others claim they were a hair's-breadth from being used as
food.

Anyone care to comment on this?

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "I mean, foreign agent or no,  Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  I've done good work for the       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  city. I never compromised my      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  integrity, except a few times."                 VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
---------------------- Lt. Okking -------------------------------------------
-- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph [phone] tl 793-1756 hm [phone] --
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997?  computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 14:09:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 43


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bryan Woodworth) writes...
>A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
>computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
>happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
>miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.
>
>Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
>this.
>
>nks.
>:
>--
>Bryan Woodworth   Mail: [e-mail]
>Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA


        No this is not quite correct:

        In  1997  on August 28th a Super  computer  called   Skynet  will
        become self aware.   Skynet  being  in  control  of all of the US
        weapons systems will decide the fate of the Human race in a micro
        second and launch an attack  on the USSR.  3 billion people  will
        die in the first holocust after which skynet with  the help of it
        machanicl minions will begin the extermination of all those left.

        A leader of the Humans  will arise by the name of John Conner who
        will teach the humans to fight  back.    Skynet  on  the verge of
        destruction will send a T101 terminator cyborg  back  in  time to
        kill John Conners mother Sarah.  Also Skynet  will  send  a T1000
        Terminator  to  kill John Conner at age twelve should  the  first
        Terminator fail.  John Conner uncovers this plot and sends one of
        his  fighters  back in time to prevent the T101 from acomplishing
        its task.  This freedom fighter gets John Conners mother pregnant
        and turns out  to  be Johns father.  At the same time John send a
        reprogramed T101 terminator to  protect the 12 year old John from
        the T1000.


        In  other  words  nks get a life  and  take  this  discussion  to
        alt.bullshit.

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 18:00:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Hotel California
Lines: 17
Originator: jcj@tellab3


    Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
    know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
    actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
    valid data on this sort of stuff.  I don't mean to flame or
    ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is
    way out there.

    My background (if you care): Bachelors in Astro from
    Northwestern U. (Yes, I knew Dr. Hynek).  Agnostic about
    the little guys...

--

           [e-mail]
    "Pressure drop! Pressure gonna drop on you."
            ~Frank "Toots" Hibbard
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 21:56:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Distribution: na
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 68
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>
>    Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
>    know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
>    actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
>    valid data on this sort of stuff.  I don't mean to flame or

Hmm, well, I haven't been posting any gray articles.  That stuff is so far
out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real
support that I just read it and groan.  If (emphasis on if) any one of these
files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting
each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to seperate the one grain
of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally
unstable individuals.

Now, if you are the author of one of these epistles, don't automatically
assume that I am calling you emotionally unstable.  I'm not.  I'm just saying
that those of us looking on from the outside have no way of knowing who is
unstable and who isn't.

At the same time, if you spend any time at all researching on the subject, you
will soon become convinced that there *is* something going on that is not
adequately explained by the blythe cliches offered up by the confirmed
skeptics.

Whether or not all of this is really explained by the ET hypothesis is another
question altogether.  I wonder if the government really knows what this is at
all.  Perhaps after investigating they found that they could not fully
identify whatever these things are (that we have been calling ETs).  But they
found that the 'ETs' continued to buzz their bases and play games with AF
craft, and these exotic enigmas could not be successfully engaged or attacked.

Perhaps, faced with something they could not explain or defeat, they simply
decided that this was something that should be suppressed.  "We can't let our
citizens realise that there are things flying around out there that can do as
they please, and we can't touch them - they'd be panicked!  They would loose
faith in the capabilities of their armed forces!  No - better to keep it a
secret while we try to figure out a way to combat these things."

And all the bizarre stories that leak out are the horrible perversions of the
real truth.  The real truth is not that we are being invaded, but that there
is something really weird living on the same planet as us (maybe always has
been here), but you can't grab it and hold it.  It always has a way of
slipping away, like a leprechaun or something.

And the military, having obtained proof that the weird exists (because the
advanced surveillance practices of the military make it difficult for anything
to happen on this planet without them realising it), but not being able to
catch them or effectively attack them, has decided that no one must find out
about this terribly destabilizing fact of life.

There are so many military personel who know about parts of the mystery that
it is getting harder and harder to keep it all secret.  But what happens is
that a secret that gets whispered in dark places to paranoid people comes out
bearing little resemblence to the reality that it originally reflected.

Understand, I'm not claiming to have any special knowledge on this subject.
This is pure speculation on my part after reading several good books by
serious researchers of this subject and coming to my own conclusions.  As
speculation, it stands not as my "current belief," but as my best "current
guess," based on what I have read.

Regards,
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 01:19:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1890 alt.slack:1113 alt.conspiracy:6787

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>    Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
>    know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
>    actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
>    valid data on this sort of stuff.

It's so incredibly OBVIOUS even a preclear like me can SENSE it--

If there WEREN'T a HUGE GOV'T CONSPIRACY to prevent it, people would be
posting INTELLIGIBLE FACTS!

It's so obvious, it makes my feet spin.
                            -- Kibo
                               (a Neutral Grey)


--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 01:27:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 49
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1891 alt.conspiracy:6788

In article <[e-mail]> you write:
>Hmm, well, I haven't been posting any gray articles.  That stuff is so far
>out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real
>support that I just read it and groan.  If (emphasis on if) any one of these
>files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting
>each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to seperate the one grain
>of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally
>unstable individuals.
>
>Now, if you are the author of one of these epistles, don't automatically
>assume that I am calling you emotionally unstable.  I'm not.  I'm just saying
>that those of us looking on from the outside have no way of knowing who is
>unstable and who isn't.

I'M UNSTABLE!!!  I'M UNSTABLE!!!!!   LA LA LA LA LA!!!

And remember, be sorry for those who are "Mentally Stable".  The
Conspiracy wants you to be Stable and Normal and Correct.

>At the same time, if you spend any time at all researching on the subject, you
>will soon become convinced that there *is* something going on that is not
>adequately explained by the blythe cliches offered up by the confirmed
>skeptics.

That's why the BEST ufo-related writings are generated by people who've
done NO research!

>            _.
>--Steve   ._||__
>  Warren   v\ *|
>             V

AAAAAAAIIIIIEEEE!!!  AN ASCII STATE!!!  Your mind is obviously under
control of the CONSPIRACY!  I would turn you in to alt.fan.warlord, but
ASCII states must be as tall as this sign--> +-------+ to go in that group.
                                             | SIGN! |
                                             +-------+
                                                | |
                                               -| |-

                -- Kibo, spewer of post-bullda truths



--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 00:48:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <axolotl.683039890@syzygy>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 18

In article <axolotl.683039890@syzygy> [e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes:
>this because the important people won't listen.
>
>(The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.)

I believe the book you are referring to is called "Alien Liason",
by Timothy Good.

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: FILE: Whitley Strieber FAREWELL Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 12:55:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1893 alt.conspiracy:6790


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes...

> Like the related books and the Communion groups, it  had  a definite and
> finite purpose.

    What, money? Publicity? Strieber is an ass, a fake, and a
    wart on the face of the UFO community.

>* I am not  a  government  agent.   There  is  some  truth to the
>allegations that I have contact within  the U.S. military and the
>government.  I will not deny this.   But all of my activities are
>pointed in one direction: disclosure.

    Of course he isn't. Government agents could care less about
    making money and attracting publicity for themselves.

>* I am not a skinflint.  The Communion  Foundation has given away
>a lot of money, and I have tried hard  to be financially generous
>in every way possible, and possess the records to prove it.  Even
>Budd Hopkins has been generously treated, and I have the canceled
>checks to prove this.

    Bullshit.

>* The "white paper" Mr. Hopkins allegedly  produced about me is a
>tissue of  intentional  distortions  designed  to portray me in a
>falsely negative light.  But  his  apparent sending of this paper
>to dozens of UFO investigators, in an effort to discredit me, was
>effective.  Such people are eager to believe negative information
>about those more successful  than  they.  Jealousy is an illness,
>and it is highly  contagious,  and  the  UFO community is sick to
>death with it.

    Oh, poor Whitley. Mad because Hopkins, one of the most
    noted and respected researchers in the community showed
    everyone what you really are?

>* There exist no legitimate audio  tapes of me admitting to being
>an  alien,  a  government   agent,   a  sexual  pervert,  or  the
>camp-follower of little  grey  men  from  Zeta  Reticuli.  I have
>never said anything of the  kind.   These  tapes are no doubt the
>creations of people who have been  playing games in a sound room.
>If you want to know what I think, read my books.

    I have. I think you're an idiot and a buffoon.

  Peter R. Cook        | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
  Digital Equip. Corp.  +--------------------------------------------------
  Marlboro, MA.         |  "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome
  508-467-6936          |   to the 90's where the government's your mother!"

~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~
~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 15:34:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>That's why the BEST ufo-related writings are generated by people who've
>done NO research!

Best exemplified by yourself, I'm sure.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn
From: [e-mail] (Michael McNulty)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: For those of you in Boston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 15:39:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET posting account)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
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Hi,

I just saw the following note in "The Boston Globe":

"On Aug. 30, the Brattle will be host to the world premiere of (turn
on the 'Twilight Zone' theme) 'Contact UFO - Alien Abductions,' a
feature-length videotape about alien sightings and human
eyewitnesses."

The Brattle Theater is in Harvard Square.  The times for the shows are
listed as Friday at 4:30, 6:15, 8:00, and 9:40 and Saturday and Sunday
at 2:30 only.  It doesn't say whether the film is only being shown
this weekend or not.

I don't know, but I assume that it will eventually make its way to
all the big cities, college cities, or art houses (if it hasn't
already).  If I can get a schedule for when it's appearing elsewhere,
I'll post it.

I know nothing about this film.  Does anyone else?  I do intend to see
it over the weekend, so if it seems at all interesting, I'll post
something about it.

Mike
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 16:13:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Distribution: na
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes...

I agree with your assessment, Steve.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997?  computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 16:20:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA
Lines: 20


 A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
 computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
 happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
 miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.

 Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
 this.

 nks.

----------

     Just sounds like another interpretation of Revelations 13, 11-18.


Kevin Cyrus
Hewlett Packard
Vancouver Wa.
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!rutgers!ucsd!sdcc6!sdcc13!pashley
From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 18:51:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>
>If there WEREN'T a HUGE GOV'T CONSPIRACY to prevent it, people would be
>posting INTELLIGIBLE FACTS!
>

OTOH, if there WERE a Huge Government Conspiracy, that would imply
that the Government is organized enough to whip a HGC together. The
US government? Nah . . .  (Of course, the only conspiracy they COULD
make would be a HUGE one)

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
   (They told be to say this.)

--
"Ask me what I'm doing."                  |  [e-mail]
  "Okay, what are you doing? Oh no . . ." |   [Not a UCSD employee]
"I'm losing my mi-i-i-i-ind!"             |
  "Dude - - get a new catchphrase."       |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters
From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 20:30:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Montykins) writes:
   [ ... quote removed .. ]
>OTOH, if there WERE a Huge Government Conspiracy, that would imply
>that the Government is organized enough to whip a HGC together. The
>US government? Nah . . .  (Of course, the only conspiracy they COULD
>make would be a HUGE one)
>
> -Paul "Monty" Ashley
>   (They told be to say this.)


     Remember Stealth.  Remember how long it was debated on whether or not
     to fund research into it.  Remember that it was built, and tested while
     the funding debate went on.  Don't need a HGC - we've agencies with more
     resources than some countries.

--
Coyt D. Watters      |Anybody gotta  | "Oh, that cave's mighty dark, anyone
The Arthur G. James  |modem for a    |  bring a chicken which we can douse
Cancer Hospital and  |Timex/Sinclair |  with oil, ignite, and toss in there?"
Research Institute   |1000?          |  --Anon. Player Character
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!psinntp!uupsi!dorsaidm!kizn
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Delvalle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Aug 91 16:00:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission ( Mail address : [e-mail] )
Lines: 34

[e-mail] (Jeff Later) writes:

> night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO"
> theme.  I was kind of surprised!  In fact, I think part of the "plot" of
> the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"?  Anyone else catch this ad?


   Yeah, seems that Junior went along as a specimen?

   Ever since around 1978, when the movie "Close Encounters Of the Third
Kind" , was released, the media and Hollywood have been putting an awfull
lot of time and effort into UFO's and such.

   I imagine that a good portion of this is simply people out to make a
buck, due to the intrest that the public has with the mysterious and
unearthly.

  1978 and thereabouts had a bumper crop in this subject matter......

   Close Encounters....
   Fredrick Valtivich...(spelled something like this)  Was abducted while
Flying from australia to New Zeland...WHILE talking to the control tower.
   E.T.  also came out around this time.
   A media crew from melbourne  captured on film a UFO  a short time
after  Fredrick V. dissapeared.
   The papers had just gotten a hold of a file that told of a UFO
burning out the electrical system of two US made jets that were chasing
it over Iran. (was reported to CIA, and the media somehow got it through
the Freedom Of Information Act).

  What can I say??.... yearly, some event happens that keeps UFO's in the
limelight, But more so since '78.

                                                       Kizn.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!marz
From: [e-mail] (martin.zam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Calling Michael Corbin...
Keywords: Please call or Email
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Aug 91 21:21:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 11

Michael,
    I have not gotten any response to Email for several mail paths.
Unless I respond to one of your postings, I don't seem to be getting to you.
This has been going on for weeks.  Please call or Email me.

                        Thanks in advance,
                        Martin Zam
                        [phone]

P.S.
    I'm sorry for the waste of bandwidth.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!yale.edu!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Aug 91 00:19:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bryan
Woodworth) says:
>
>A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
>computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
>happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
>miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.
>
>Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
>this.
>
>nks.
>:
>--
>Bryan Woodworth   Mail: [e-mail]
>Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA


If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one
a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply
the result by 6 you get 666.   Sound's satanic to me!

Just in case you don't believe me:

C = 3     x 6 =  18
O = 15    x 6 =  90
M = 13    x 6 =  78
P = 16    x 6 =  96
U = 21    x 6 = 126
T = 20    x 6 = 120
E = 5     x 6 =  30
R = 18    x 6 = 108
-------------------
       Total  = 666


By the way, each of my names has 6 letters in it.  Does that make
ME satanic???  People have been predicting armageddon(sp?) for
many centuries.  I guess we'll know its happening when it happens.


George E Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Aug 91 00:08:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 > Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT
 > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were
 > based
 > on *something*.  I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter
 > of
 > fact.  I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner.

Since J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee were consultants for that film, you
can bet that the material that was used was taken directly from some of their more reliable cases.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Aug 91 00:21:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 27


 > From: [e-mail] (jcj)
 > Date: 29 Aug 91 18:00:13 GMT
 > Organization: Hotel California
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 >         Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
 >         know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
 >         actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
 >         valid data on this sort of stuff.  I don't mean to flame or
 >         ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is
 >         way out there.

 >         My background (if you care): Bachelors in Astro from
 >         Northwestern U. (Yes, I knew Dr. Hynek).  Agnostic about
 >         the little guys...

If you knew Hynek, then you have the answer to your "pseudosurvey."  As you know, Hynek was a mouthpiece for the Air Force's Project Blue Book.  His initial attitude was that only kooks and crackpots saw UFOs, which made him a perfect choice for the Air Force.  However, after a few years of watching and debunking every report Hynek saw, he began to wonder about this whole situation.  Obviously, not only kooks and crackpots were seeing and reporting UFOs, but so were credible civilian and military aircraft



pilots.  Actually, Hynek found that very little of the reports were generated by kooks and crackpots.  Finally, the height of Hynek's mouthpiece years came to a close in the famous Michigan case where Hynek declared that a sighting by several credible witnesses was swamp gas.  Following this, Hynek denounced his relationship with the Air Force and went on with then young Jacques Vallee to found the Center for UFO Studies in Illinois.  In the early years, Hynek attributed the problem of no progress to absol



ute naivity and stupidity on the part of the Air Force.  He claimed that they were not scientists and were thusly not qualified to study this serious problem.  However, as time went, and Hynek got more involved, he began to see that there was a coverup going on.  ParaNet's director of research and investigation, Robert Klinn was a special investigator for Hynek.  There was a case that occurred in Yucaipa, CA, where a tape recording was made of a UFO as it flew low over houses and a church.  He personally p



aid for the trip and research out of his own pocket and stated, "I'm going to make the Air Force eat this!"  Until his death, Hynek was a big proponent of the reality of the phenomenon, and the coverup that ensued as a result of it.  As far as the so-called reality of the "greys," I cannot comment on this, but I will say that whatever this phenomenon represents, there are more strange things involved than little aliens running around.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Aug 91 18:46:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 26

An argument was brought up in Scientific American some years ago (sorry, don't
know what issue) that gave the argument that if you really wanted to, you can
make any object or any number relate to 666, 555, 123, or whatever number you
wish with a bit of mathematical play.

Case in point, take a look at the latest MONDO mag, the article that talks
about how the national bank system is the bibles prophetic beast, and credit
cards are the numbers assigned to the population.

If Computers are work of the devil, then so must calculators, electronic
watches, and anything else electronic.  (I can't imagine Teddy Ruxpin telling
children to worship the devil on armigeddon 8-)   )


I'll end with this note:

Works of the Devil:
Computers
Rock & Roll
Adultry ( Read a playboy, go to hell )
Politicians
Lawyers


Steven Graziano
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997?  computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Sep 91 16:59:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com


> A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
> computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
> happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
> miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.
>
> Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all

You can read more about the devil taking the form of a human and doing
miraculous things in the Bible, in the book of Revelation. He is called the
AntiChrist, and just about any Christian Bookstore will have references on
Armageddon and the events proceeding it, as well as would have any public
library. Authors Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are two that I would recommend.
Lindsey focuses more on Scriptural interpretation; Hunt focuses more on what
will actually happen (i.e. the role of the Antichrist). As for -computers- I
have always thought they would play a part. What part, no one seems to know;
Ill have to check out Marrs :)

What has this to do with UFO's I am not sure, but I think there is some
connection. Many things we become more desensitized to and accept as normal
(as has been noted, ufo abduction, friendly aliens, etc) could easily help
usher in the 'new spiritual awakening' and the 'worshipping of a false god
of false miracles' as is described by these authors.

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Sep 91 00:21:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>>I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by
>>astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar)
>>perspective!

>Betty and Barney Hill's abduction experience was included in the Stanton
>Friedman video "UFO's are Real". Actually, Betty made a sketch of
>the star system and that  was later expanded upon by Majorie Fish, who
>correlated it to the Zeta Reticuli start system by some months of effort.

It seems however, that given a random set of two dimensional dots (the
"star map"), that you can correlate that to a random set of three
dimensional points (real star positions), given enough work.  One of the
most important things you'll learn in a statistics class is that given
enough samples, *anything* can be correlated to anything else.

I really wonder why an alien would bother giving someone a two
dimensional star map anyway, it's just about useless.  It's the sort of
thing I would expect a person that doesn't understand astronomy to
make.  I've seen the map, it has various lines connecting the dots,
which are supposed to indicate trade and exploration routes.

What would be something, would be for a person to obtain the locations
and say, the frequencies of previously unknown pulsars.  Just about any
other easily verifiable, but difficult to obtain information would be
as good.  A really spectacular near proof of aliens (or at least
prescience) would be if a person obtained the exact time and location
of a supernova well before it could have been predicted with current
knowlege.  The aliens wouldn't even have to be great astronomers, they
would just have to find a supernova who's light hasn't reached earth
yet, and beat it back in their faster-than-light spacecraft.  Given
that this sort of information hasn't surfaced, I would guess that the
supposed aliens really don't want us know they really exist.

Currently, my own views on the aliens are, that there are the modern
equivalent of demons, goblins, vampires, and other boogypersons.
Humans have the tendency to believe in all sorts of things.  Alien
invasion is just one of many things that people believe.
--
Watching the skies :)  Anthony Stieber
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!muckenho
From: [e-mail] (Carl Van Muckenhoupt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Sep 91 07:54:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (I Use Net)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Lines: 32
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 31 Aug 91 00: 19:29 GMT


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
   If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one
   a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply
   the result by 6 you get 666.   Sound's satanic to me!

   Just in case you don't believe me:

   C = 3     x 6 =  18
   O = 15    x 6 =  90
   M = 13    x 6 =  78
   P = 16    x 6 =  96
   U = 21    x 6 = 126
   T = 20    x 6 = 120
   E = 5     x 6 =  30
   R = 18    x 6 = 108
   -------------------
      Total  = 666

This is very unprofessional work. You multiply everything by 6. Why?
I am not an expert on Gematria (the Kabbalistic system of numerology
that St. John was probably referring to when he came up with that
number), but still it strikes me that seldom do you go multiplying
arbitrary constants into your answers without a good reason.
Especially when the initial result (111) is such a significant
number already.  111 is the number of ALEPH, as well as a bunch of
other good and powerful words, in Hebrew.  Thus, to the author(s) of
the Revelation, 111 would signify divine rather that demonic forces.
Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the
validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute
for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it
is more in line with our experience, is suspect.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!sot-ecs!of
From: [e-mail] (Fibre Optics)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Sep 91 09:59:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 48

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes:


>> A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
>> computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
>> happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
>> miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.
>>
>> Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
>
>You can read more about the devil taking the form of a human and doing
>miraculous things in the Bible, in the book of Revelation. He is called the
>AntiChrist, and just about any Christian Bookstore will have references on
>Armageddon and the events proceeding it, as well as would have any public
>library. Authors Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are two that I would recommend.
>Lindsey focuses more on Scriptural interpretation; Hunt focuses more on what
>will actually happen (i.e. the role of the Antichrist). As for -computers- I
>have always thought they would play a part. What part, no one seems to know;
>Ill have to check out Marrs :)

No ! No ! Forget about Marrs !

Forget about the Bible too !

You wanna know about computers and Armageddon ?

Read The Koran......


>
>What has this to do with UFO's I am not sure, but I think there is some
>connection. Many things we become more desensitized to and accept as normal
>(as has been noted, ufo abduction, friendly aliens, etc) could easily help
>usher in the 'new spiritual awakening' and the 'worshipping of a false god
>of false miracles' as is described by these authors.

>--
>Sara Gordon
>Northern Star 8 line BBS
>219-289-0287/317-251-7391
>internet: [e-mail]
>uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
>    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
--
Peter Harris   G4BDQ  |         Unusual exploding disclaimer  ->    (}|){//)
Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-)
Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\)
[e-mail]    |           Kerry Wendell Thornley              |||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_A_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Sep 91 18:18:46 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1910 sci.skeptic:14234


     Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by  the name of
O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near
Mare Crisium on our Moon.  There was also a report for many  years that lights
appeared to turn on in certain craters for  a few  hours and then  turn off.
He released  this  information  then the  professional  astronomers really
pounced on him.  Mr.  H. T. Winkins, who is the world   authority on the moon,
told everyone to leave him alone.  His  words were;   Oh, yes it s there .   I
estimate  that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens
thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered to
the middle,  just as many  bridges do.
      And when you say it looks artificial   said the radio man,   What  do
you mean  exactly  by that?
      Well,  it looks almost like an engineering job   replied Wilkens.
     When the incident was reported by the US media,  the wire service
corrected  Wilkens   statement by saying the great bridge on Mare Crisium was
a natural bridge.
      The bridge is said to be seen best during the first 6 or 8  days of a
new moon using a 60 to l00 power telescope.
    That is all for now.  I hope to be attending  the National New Age and
Alien Agenda Conference, Sept. 6,7,8 and 9th in the Airport Holiday Inn,
Phoenix, Ariz.  I hope to be there on the 6th and 7th with my video camera.
They have a 24 hour Phoenix Conference hotline and it is 602-230-5381.
     You ll be able to recognize me because I ll be wearing a bright Hawaiian
tourist shirt,  a burple (not purple) hat  and  dark sunglasses.  Some people
say I  look like Bob Hope on tour in this get-up.
     I ll leave you with this saying ; It is better to light  one small candle
than to curse the darkness.
    Standard Disclaimer
     John.

I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Summary: Pseudo-reply
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Sep 91 22:12:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>
>     Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
>     know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
>     actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
>     valid data on this sort of stuff.  I don't mean to flame or
>     ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is
>     way out there.

     I believe there are alien civilizations (extra-terrestrials), that they
do/have visited this planet, and that at least a faction of the US Govt, and
probably others as well, know about them and perhaps to a degree interact
with them.

     One of the things you see happening on here is that a few people will
start posting about first-hand information that sounds like it might be
credible, then there is a diluge of obvious bs.  I think the latter comes from
sources that want to discredit the existance of alien intelligence here.

     Now, I see a couple of themes show up real frequently, one I'd call
"ET Revelations", which is basically Revelations from the Bible re-interpreted
into UFO lingo.  The other is 'V' (the sci-fi mini-series/book).  I don't
believe either of those scenerios is likely.

     What I do find plausible is that a more advanced civilization is
interested in the development of our civilization because their own past has
been lost to them and they pick up insight into their own development by
observing the development of other races.  Any sufficiently advanced
civilization is undoubtably aware of what generally happens when an advanced
civilization meets a more primative one.  For reasons of not skewing the data,
and maybe even for some moral reasons, I think they would have an interest in
remaining unknown to us.

     Here on the terrestrial field, there are many people who've aquired
wealth and power from selling energy and arms.  A world view that would
likely result if we learned that we weren't alone in the cosmos would likely
be threatening to their position of power.  Thus they have every interest in
also preventing us from knowing about any alien visitors, and thus they have
some motivation to help keep any alien operations secret.

     This of coarse is only opinion and conjecture.  I've had some rather
strange experiences myself, they don't seem to fit within the grey-vs-nords
theme.  I do  believe the "men in black" are real, but I don't think they are
extra-terrestrial in nature.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!ibm.cl.msu.edu!WYNNWM
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Why has noone asked....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Sep 91 20:22:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 7

The most obvious questions  in this group have remained unasked.  Why?
Are there any aliens reading this?  Can you prove it?  Have you ever
seen one?  Can you prove it?  What about "real" experiences.  Have you
had one?  What have you seen (no fiction please) that you cannot explain?
I can write a book about these things.  Please open up.  Write me alone
if you are uncomfortable.  I will document it and report back.  I will
believe you!   The nice thing about seeing is knowing for sure.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 21:14:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1913 sci.skeptic:14289

[e-mail] writes:

>     When the incident was reported by the US media,  the wire service
>corrected  Wilkens   statement by saying the great bridge on Mare Crisium was
>a natural bridge.

A conspiracy, of course.  Can't trust those wire services.  Only
believe what you hear on alt.paranomal.  And of course any recent
photographs don't shed any light on it, the aliens either took it down
or faked it to look natural when they heard we were coming.  Heh.

>     I ll leave you with this saying ; It is better to light  one small candle
>than to curse the darkness.

And best of all is one who has a clue.
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 03:40:27 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 9

Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in
them?  Or is just an over active imagination?

Ttyl!
Gary

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 16:02:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 18
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com


> Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in
> them?  Or is just an over active imagination?
>
> Ttyl!
> Gary
>

Well, Gerry, it could me a lot. Especially if the dreams are not really
dreams, but are instead alien experiences. Check out alt.alien.visitors.

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: boy am i stupid!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 16:20:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

boy, am i stupid. :) to Gary with the alien dreams, I MEANT to post "check
out alt.dreams" <grin>.  Since he is already obviously IN
alt.alien.visitors, I might add that what appears to be a dream could be
reality. Exactly what kind of alien dreams are we talking about here?


--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!dali.cs.montana.edu!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 02:12:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 9


I've had a lot of alien dreams too.  Several of them were reoccurring.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mb5a+
From: [e-mail] (Miyoko Erika Baensch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH
Message-ID: <4clOIo200WBKM2=[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 03:32:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sophomore, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 8
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

I have also noticed a popularization of the whole space alien thing.  I
was eatin' in taco bell and on my place mat was a story about space
aliens and taco bell.  they designed this placemat to be like a
newspaper like Weekly World.  This may have already been written about
previously, but i figured i would write about it again in case no one
else had.
miyoko
carnegie mellon university.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 05:58:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 18
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

[e-mail] writes:

>
> I've had a lot of alien dreams too.  Several of them were reoccurring.
>
> ---
>         (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
> ---

Please, would you care to elucidate? :)

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 15:04:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>      The bridge is said to be seen best during the first 6 or 8  days of a
>new moon using a 60 to l00 power telescope.

I wasn't aware it was still visible.  I guess I'll have to take a look one
of these days.    Of course, this brings up the question, how do I know what
I'm looking for?  And if I know what I'm looking for, won't I find it
whether it's really there or not?

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Sep 91 01:06:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1921 sci.skeptic:14320

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>     Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by  the name of
>O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near
>Mare Crisium on our Moon.  There was also a report for many  years that lights
>appeared to turn on in certain craters for  a few  hours and then  turn off.
>He released  this  information  then the  professional  astronomers really
>pounced on him.  Mr.  H. T. Winkins, who is the world   authority on the moon,
>told everyone to leave him alone.  His  words were;   Oh, yes it s there .   I
>estimate  that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens
>thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered to
>the middle,  just as many  bridges do.
>      And when you say it looks artificial   said the radio man,   What  do
>I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S.

Now that's interesting..

Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-)

Here's a tidbit for you John...

I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in
orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I
know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the
Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to know
some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such.

For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think
again..

BIG BROTHER knows all..sees all..and it gets fed to that HUGE computer in
Brussels which is affectionately known as "the Beast"..

"Skynet" IS a reality...that's your SDI in action.

Flame away pinheads in sci.skeptic..I use the responses when I print them
out to line kitty's litter box :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!uniol!unido!mpirbn!p515dfi
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,rec.radio.amateur.misc,dnet.ham,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange radio signals from nearby stars ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 14:38:35 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Followup-To: sci.astro
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:11056 rec.radio.amateur.misc:6920 alt.alien.visitors:1922

The following was contained in a text distributed by the German news agency
dpa, which is known for its often incorrect science stories. Nonetheless I'd
like to know what the story is behind the following remarks in a feature
article on NASA's new Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program:

] In the same way as radio signals from earth reach out for 100 light years,
] signals of this kind can also be detected from outside earth. E.g., the
] radio telescope in Arecibo on Puerto Rico has detected electromagnetic
] pulses from stars close to the solar system, that resemble our radar.
] And Soviet astronomers are marvelling since one year about the origin of
] unusual signals that they have detected from the star Atair, only 17 light
] years away in the constellation Eagle.

+- [e-mail] --- Daniel Fischer --- [e-mail] -+
| Max-Planck-Institut f. Radioastronomie, Auf dem Huegel 69, W-5300 Bonn 1,FRG |
+----- Enjoy the Universe - it's the only one you're likely to experience -----+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!intruder!goff
From: [e-mail] (Viki Goff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: End of the World
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 17:18:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: POPS Facility Management
Lines: 27

Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines
of devils.                 I Timothy 4:1

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I uphold the Word of God to be the unerrant truth of the ages and
that Jesus Christ is the Word, the Way, The TRUTH and the LIGHT and
NO ONE COMES UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY HIM.

If all of these other folks can post outrageous stories and opinions,
then why can't Christians speak what should be spoken!!!

New agers... you better quit channeling evil spirits or you will
be destroyed. Satan is a whole lot smarter than you are.

Wake up and turn to Jesus before it's too late!

DISCLAIMER
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My management says that my beliefs are not necessarily theirs and so
I disclaim their beliefs and they disclaim mine. No problem."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 10:52:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>I've had a lot of alien dreams too.  Several of them were reoccurring.
>

One common theme in my dreams is a planet with three moons.. I am standing
outside some kind of shack and talking about the beauty of three moons in
the sky at once.

--
Jason Haines
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: End of the World
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 18:58:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 7


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Viki Goff) writes...
>Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors:
  Stuff Deleted
>Wake up and turn to Jesus before it's too late!

        Wake yourself up a get a life!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 16:43:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 59
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1926 sci.skeptic:14339

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> >
> >     Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by  the name of
> >O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near
> >Mare Crisium on our Moon.  There was also a report for many  years that ligh
> >appeared to turn on in certain craters for  a few  hours and then  turn off.
> >He released  this  information  then the  professional  astronomers really
> >pounced on him.  Mr.  H. T. Winkins, who is the world   authority on the moo
> >told everyone to leave him alone.  His  words were;   Oh, yes it s there .
> >estimate  that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens
> >thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered t
> >the middle,  just as many  bridges do.
> >      And when you say it looks artificial   said the radio man,   What  do
> >I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S.
>
> Now that's interesting..
>
> Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-)
>
> Here's a tidbit for you John...
>
> I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in
> orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I
> know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the
> Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to kno
> some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such.
>
> For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think
> again..
>
> BIG BROTHER knows all..sees all..and it gets fed to that HUGE computer in
> Brussels which is affectionately known as "the Beast"..
>
> "Skynet" IS a reality...that's your SDI in action.
>
> Flame away pinheads in sci.skeptic..I use the responses when I print them
> out to line kitty's litter box :-)
>
> Don
>
>
> --
> -* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
> USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
> UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
> UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?

        Don't worry-- I've heard from VERY RELIABLE SOURCES that the
government's surveillance can be stopped by wrapping aluminum foil around
your head. Blocks out the microwaves, y'know.


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pmafire!
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Later)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:16:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: J.B. Later
Distribution: na
Organization: WINCO
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
> > Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT
> > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
> > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>
> > Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were
> > based
> > on *something*.  I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter
> > of
> > fact.  I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner.
>
>Since J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee were consultants for that film, you
>can bet that the material that was used was taken directly from some of their more reliable cases.


"CETK"????  Please forgive me.  I live in Idaho, where we are still getting
re-runs "My Favorite Martian"!  I am not familiar with this film.  Is it a
recent release?  When was it made, and is it out on tape yet??

Thanks!!




 _____________________________________________________________________________
||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||
||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA   ([e-mail]) |    "I have become        ||
||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** |   comfortably numb"      ||
||                                                |      Pink Floyd          ||
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser
From: [e-mail] (Steve Reiser)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 21:50:12 GMT
Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14351 alt.alien.visitors:1928


In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one
shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified
flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings.
To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the
subject.  Many astounding stories have been published since World War
II, yet not one concrete piece of evidence has come forth to verify that
the supposed intellignetly guided crafts exists.  The same goes for the
stories of people being abducted.  If individuals have been abducted
what evidence is there that they are not making it up. (Lie detector
tests, separate interviews of those claiming to have shared an
experience, etc.)


Steve

--
Steve Reiser ([e-mail] or !uunet!pmafire!reiser)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!vesta.unm.edu!thelar
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <l65b3#[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 23:01:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14356 alt.alien.visitors:1929

It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets.
To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever)
of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is:

1) A thought held by many unintelligent people.
2) A defiance of all staticians hold to be true.

Statistically speaking we have approx. a 99% chance of being average.

Larry Koch
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Implants
Summary: More on alien implants
Keywords: implant
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:28:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 39
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************


In article  <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> Whitley Strieber has had some sort of scan done and some sort of objects
> appeared on it.  I don't know if any abductees have died yet, but it would
> be extremely interesting to check for implants when they do.  (Unless the
> aliens dematerialize them or something.)  I haven't heard about any
> exploratory surgery either.  Some sources (Cooper et. al.) say that the
> implants are located such that it would be extremely difficult to get to
> them.

I have spoken with many `implanted' people.  Cooper, when visited by these
people, and after some preliminary questions, will not let them into his house.
A few months back, I was chatting with Bud Hopkins.  He indicated that he,
personally, was involved with at least 3 people that have had these small
round objects removed after a series of alien abductions.  They are being
studied to determine what they are.  He also showed me photos of puncture
marks above and to the front of the ear of a lady.  This implant was
very difficult to get to.

Cooper seems to think (correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) that when the secret
government takes over, that all implanted earth humans will be used by
them, and they greys, to control the rest of the populace.  Actually,
implants are a very primitive way to monitor/control an earth human.
I've heard/seen of technology that is far beyond any of this implant stuff
that many of the greys are fond of.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mutilations
Summary: Linda Moulten-Howe and Cattle Mutilations
Keywords: mutilate
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:32:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 87
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the
public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations.

She began her study in the late 70's and early 80's.  The
first thing she did was to show beyond any doubt whatsoever
that this phenomenon was NOT done by Satanists.  Specifically,
she interviewed a wide variety of Satanists all over the U.S.
and showed them photographs and the evidence that she had collected.
Without exception, they all said that they did not do anything
like this, they had not seen anything like this and did not know who
might do this kind of thing.  They did admit to an occasional chicken,
pig or lamb.  But what, pray tell, would they do with the reamed out
anus of a cow?  Indeed, this is a worldwide phenomenon, with
about 20,000 to 30,000 in the U.S. that we know of so far.

After determining that it was not the work of some group or cult
such as the above, she turned her focus elsewhere.

In many cases, the animal was found in snow and without any
tracks around it at all.  It was as if someone/something had dropped
it there from the air. (What group of cultists use helicopters?)
In almost all cases, all the fluids were missing, the skin around
the mouth, the eyeballs and skin around the eyes, the anus and
the genitals were also gone.

Linda took skin cuttings from the areas that were lacerated and
brought them to a medical surgeon and medical laboratories for
examination.  The results were that the cuts were made by what could
only be described as a laser of some sort.  The surgeon (M.D.) was
unable to duplicate the incision on some test tissue.  The assessment
was that we (earth humans) do not currently have the technology, laser
or otherwise, that could create such a series of cuts.  Basically,
the speed at which it must have happened is 3 to 10 times as fast as
any known laser.

I guess the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, is the eye
witness accounts.  I was shown video of interviews with Ranchers
whose cattle were mutilated and telling what they saw and how it
happened.  They were on their ranch, looking through binoculars at
a UFO that had landed, and out came the proverbial grey aliens, who
somehow zapped the cow, and levitated it up a ramp to their silver
vehicle.  They next they saw of the cow was the standard mutilation.
There are many such eye witness accounts.

There has been some discussion as to whether this has happened to humans.
I spoke with Linda about this.  She said that in her dozen or so
years of investigation that she had never come across such a case.
(This is a relief.)  Although, I did chat with a gentleman who
used to be a police officer in the midwest, Don Ecker, (he is now
married to Vickie Cooper, publisher of UFO Magazine) and he DID see
such a thing.  When he tried to investigate it, the highest authorities
in the Federal government that he could find got back to him and told
him that, for his own safety, he should forget the whole thing.
Basically, what he learned was that the F.B.I. was covering up any
information regarding any inquiries on any kind of human mutilation
that is similar in nature to the above cattle mutilations.

While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up
photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had
happened 10 days before.   It is continuing  ....

Linda has published the only definitive book on the subject:
"An Alien Harvest", ISBN 89-091260, $50.00, with photos.  In 1983,
on HBO, she produced "UFOs: The ET Factor".  In addition, she
has several videos on the above topic: "A Strange Harvest", 1 hr,
$30 or 80 min for $50, or a Booklet $15.  And, "Earth Mysteries:
Alien Life Forms",  a TV documentary for $30.

Linda may be reached at:

    Linda Moulton Howe
    P.O. Box 538
    Huntington Valley, PA 19006-0538
    215 938-7869

She is a professional television producer and author.
-----------------
  David Jones
  [e-mail]
-----------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Roswell
Summary: Something on Roswell
Keywords: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:34:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 38
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

<[e-mail]>  (Duane P Mantick) asks:

> What do YOU think happened at Roswell and do you think there may indeed
> be other worlds with a form of life at *least* as intelligent as our own?
>
> Please try to be serious about this - the way the question is worded
> is NOT intended to be biased in any way.

Read "UFO Crash At Roswell".  The movie rights are owned by a friend
of a friend who work(s/ed) with Lucas.  Perhaps a movie based upon this
book in 1 1/2 - 2 years?   In addition another friend of a friend just
completed a new video with interviews with many witnesses to the
goings on regarding the Roswell incident.  I have the name and where to
get it in my notes somewhere, and, if you ask, ...  Over 300 witnesses
regarding some aspect of the Roswell incident/cover-up have come
forward/out_of_the_closet.

The radar from a nearby AF base interfered with the guidance system of
an ET craft and it crashed, spreading debris over a large area.  The
farmers cattle would not go near it.  Two weeks later he got the AF
involved and the cover-up began.  The USAF, the liars, got a crashed
saucer and 4 alien bodies, one of which was dissected.  There are
reports from the base pathologist, eye witness accounts, etc.

Read the book, get the video, it's all there ...

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Prophesy
Summary: A little on prophesy
Keywords: prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:35:22 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 55
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>

 <[e-mail]>  (Christian G. Smith) writes:

> 1998 pops up in alot of places, the least credible of which is the BOB
> movement.  Their book, the "Book of BOB", is a joke.  Literally. I don't know
> how much you know about them, but the religion itself is a spoof on religions:
> the main goal is to break away from the church and start your own. =)

What we're talking about here is prophesy.  In Europe, they recently
discovered 100 new quantrains of Nostradamus.  These were hidden behind a
stone wall in a basement of a house that Nostradamus used to live in.
Nostradamus indicates in several places many things that will take place in
our/my lifetime(s).  One is that WWIII (or his envisioning of it) which will
have begun by 1997 (he gives the month too).

Edgar Cayce said the Messiah would be here by 1998.

The Mayans indicated the the world as we know it would no longer be after
2011.

On May 4-5 2000, most all of the planets will be in alignment (conjunct)
and some seem to think this indicates a big change.

Biblical prophesy indicates that (using the 1948 date of Israel statehood as
the time the clock starts to tick) that in 1992-3 a bad guy will show up
in Europe to bring a false peace to the middle east (how did they know they
2000 years ago?) which would last for 3 1/2 years followed by 3 1/2 years
of God knows what (hell most likely).

H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of
the Comet.  And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as
described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as
a possible Reptoid invasion?

Somewhere in all this are our space brothers/sisters who may help.

67% to 75% of the population will cease to exist.  The face of the earth
will change (2/3s of Japan will go bye-bye, among other things), I've got
a ton of info....

My recommendation?  Buy lots of popcorn.  It's gonna be one hell of a show!

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: T. L. Rampa
Summary: Something about T. L. Rampa
Keywords: Rampa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:36:33 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

[e-mail] (The Cellar BBS) writes:

>        T. Lobsang Rampa? Wasn't he that Englishman who claimed to be a
> Tibetan holy man? Once wrote that "Einstein, and people like Einstein, said
> that the earth was flat?" That Lobsang Rampa?

<[e-mail]> [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:

> Didn't I once read somewhere that he was in fact an English accountant
> with a fertile imagination? Anyone know the scoop?

T. Lobsang Rampa was a walk-in.  If you take the time to read his books, he
states quite clearly that the entity that inhabited the body to begin with,
left, and he, a Tibetan monk, entered.  He has written a plethora of books.
This guy was a walk-in BEFORE the word `walk-in' was coined.  He also says
that the original guy's wife was none too happy about the rather dramatic
personality switch.  Oh well ...

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Semjase and the Pleiadeans
Summary: What the Pleiadeans think
Keywords: Meier, Semjase, Pleiadean
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:37:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 53
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

In many previous articles:

> [e-mail] (Josh Vander Berg) writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> >>In my opinion one of the reasons why science has a hard time finding
> >>the missing link and how man evolved on earth is that man is not
> >>native of this planet but was brought or came here from other planets
>
> >Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact.  If man was
> >brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his
> >genome with chimps?  Answer:  He EVOLVED from monkeys.  The reason they
> >can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years
> >ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays.  I
> >suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here
> >genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes.  Further and further
> >into fantasy we tread....
>
>    The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are
>    no such links at all. A lot of skeletons of apes and people have been
>        found, but no 'links' between them, we must come to a conclusion that,
>    simply, there are no such links.

    etc.

I laugh whenever I see this kind of stuff.  Semjase, during some of the 135
physical contacts that she had with Edward `Billy' Meier in Switzerland in
the mid `70's described how we, on earth only have 3500 to, maybe 8500
(if you read Sitchen) years history.  They, on the other hand, have a
history that they can study that goes back 22 million years to the Lyran
star system.  Since about 1/3 of the population on this planet are
ancestors or descendants of the Pleiadeans, then this is, essentially
our history as well.  Basically, to make a 22,000,000 year story short,
230,000 years ago they came from the Orion Polarity Wars to the planet
that is now the asteroid belt as well as Mars.  Well, they blew away one
planet, blew the atmosphere off Mars and came here creating Lemuria and
Atlantis.  These too were destroyed after about 35,000 years of peace.
But, don't worry, the same entities that did all this destruction are
now incarnate on planet earth as the secret government and economic
powers.  Will history repeat itself?

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Symbols inside UFOs
Summary: Yes.
Keywords: symbols
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:38:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

 <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous) asks:

> Does anyone know of any resources which contain pictures or descriptions
> of any symbols purported to be seen inside UFOs or on UFO retrieved
> material?  For instance, the symbols said to be have seen inside the
> Roswell saucer.

    Yes.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Where to get UFO videos
Summary: An address for UFO videos
Keywords: videos & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:40:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 46
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

> Has anyone got a video tape copy of the 9 part series that
> George Knapp did for KLAS in Las Vegas, Nevada?  After reading
> discussions on this news group, I called them for a copy.  They
> said that they had to refuse, due to the overwhelming demand
> for copies.  This 9 part series severely overloaded their ability
> to dub copies.
>
> How do "I" get a copy?  Can anybody help?

Don Christian has several hundred UFO videos available for about $25
each.  His (normal everyday run-of-the-mill, voice) phone number is
415 541-5060 to place an order.  He has the Knapp videos.

        Yes.  I have seen the videos.  I have seen the video of Lazars
        in-court sentencing for pandering, etc.  There is another person
        in the L.A. area that is supposed to have a huge collection of
        videos available.  I've got it in my notes somewhere.

        At our next Northern California MUFON meeting Sept. 15th, they
        are scheduled (I'll beleive it when I see it) to show the
        third series of Knapp reports done earlier this year.  Knapp,
        or so I am told, has so many leads on this stuff, that he is
        overwhelmed.

        In addition, he is being inundated with requests from all over
        the world.  Even my sources find it impossible to spend any
        time with him (which they have done in the past).  I guess he
        is quickly becoming a celebrity of sorts due to this Bob
        Lazar -- John Lear -- Area 51 -- Majestic affair(s).

        Wouldn't it be nice if "60 Minutes" aired this information?

        How would the people of America react if suddenly they were told
        we REALLY had a treaty with little grey men from another planet?

----------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail]
----------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info
Summary: I`ve seen it work
Keywords: Tesla, DePalma, Free Energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Sep 91 20:42:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 54
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

**********************************************************************
  After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
  discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
  respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
  get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
**********************************************************************

Don,

Thanks for posting those articles about DePalma and Tesla.

I spent some time with DePalma at his house in Santa Barbara not too long ago.
I was there (in his garage) with about 8 others and received a first-hand
demonstration of his electrical free-energy device.

Faraday knew about the possibilities in 1831 (I've seen a copy of his diagram)
when he drew a picture of a donut shaped magnet with a wire in the middle and
a wire at the top.  When spinning, it creates an output which is greater in
energy than the amount of energy that it takes to spin the magnet.  They don`t
teach us about this in physics at the universities because the *scientists*
can't explain it.

Tesla had something similar in 1903, but, and according to a gentleman that I
spoke to who worked with Tesla in the late `30's and early 40's, his
benefactors, Westinghouse, J. P. Morgan et al, saw no profit in something that
was "free".  Again in 1933, at a press conference, Tesla indicated that if
everyone had access to these devices, that it would mean the economic
collapse of the world.  (Just think, no more gasoline, no more nuclear power
stations, no more electrical companies, no more wars over oil, no more
pollution, no more trilateral commission, no more big banks, no more oil
tankers, no more noise, ...  God, could we stand it?)

Keep in mind, Tesla said he received a lot of his ideas from beings that
he was in telepathic communication with from the planet Venus (non-
physical beings).

According to people at Los Alamos, in 1943, the U. S. Government had a free
energy device the size of a locomotive.  The secret government (was there a
secret government in '43?) had it, and the plans for it, destroyed.

As I watched, a representative of SRI International hand cranked the large
DePalma free energy device.  We watched the meters.  The amount of energy
output was 6 times (that's 600%) that of the energy input.  He claimed it would
power a small hospital or a small ranch.  It cost him $400,000 to produce using
some veerrry powerful magnets.

He is not the only one with these things.  They seem to be popping up all over.
Most of the other ones use a similar principle but "only" have a 112% to 160%
increase in energy output.  It's just a matter of time ....

----------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail]
----------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 05:31:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 26

I just wanted to add one of my dreams to this bandwith and see if anyone else
had a similar experience.  Ok, here it is:

Im lying down on a pasture with my grandmother (I think), we were looking up
at the starry sky.  One star moved in a line towards another star in the sky.
They collided into a flurry of what I can only describe as mini-stars which
collided to other stars, which blew up into mini-stars.

It appeared as a fireworks display in space.  At this time I felt terrified,
but my grandmother said something that I cannot remember (something about it
was eventually going to happen)  We both watched the universe explode and I
still felt terror at the thought of when a star fragment would hit our sun.


Any ideas? I always figured it was just a nightmare but left an impression on
me for years.








Steven Graziano
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 00:03:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carl Van
Muckenhoupt) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>   If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one
>   a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply
>   the result by 6 you get 666.   Sound's satanic to me!
>
>   Just in case you don't believe me:
>
>   C = 3     x 6 =  18
>   O = 15    x 6 =  90
>   M = 13    x 6 =  78
>   P = 16    x 6 =  96
>   U = 21    x 6 = 126
>   T = 20    x 6 = 120
>   E = 5     x 6 =  30
>   R = 18    x 6 = 108
>   -------------------
>          Total  = 666
>
>This is very unprofessional work. You multiply everything by 6. Why?
>I am not an expert on Gematria (the Kabbalistic system of numerology
>that St. John was probably referring to when he came up with that
>number), but still it strikes me that seldom do you go multiplying
>arbitrary constants into your answers without a good reason.

Excuse my unprofessionalism.  I suppose every time I multiply something
by the value 3.1415926..... (you know, PI), then I'm then also being
unprofessional.  Or maybe the value of PI is ok because it really isn't
constant.

>Especially when the initial result (111) is such a significant
>number already.  111 is the number of ALEPH, as well as a bunch of
>other good and powerful words, in Hebrew.  Thus, to the author(s) of
>the Revelation, 111 would signify divine rather that demonic forces.

Sure.  And if we go by the idea that Christ was born on Dec 25, then
that means that he was conceived (so to speak) on or about March 25,
which is supposed to be a time of the year with great demonic influences.
As for the authors of the Book of Revelations in the Bible, remember,
the King James Version of the Bible was commissioned by King James of
England in (1652?), not by James the brother of Jesus.  Also remember
that the Bible in those days (1600's I mean), took on whatever meaning
and interpretation the church gave to it, so some of these 'significant'
numbers and such may have had nothing to do with the original authors.
My information on this matter, by the way, comes from my uncle, who
holds a Masters Degree in Theology, and studied the 'real original'
transcripts and scrolls from their original hebrew and greek.  In case
you hadn't figured it out by now, my original posting was meant to be
facetious.  It was trying to prove that anyone could seemingly make
mystical observations about anything they wanted.

>Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the
>validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute
>for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it
>is more in line with our experience, is suspect.

Why wouldn't St. John have used the Roman alphabet.  The Romans had
quite an influence on people of that time period.  After all, they
controlled most of the territory.

Well enough bitching about the whole thing.  It's obvious you didn't
get the subtle kick in the head from my original posting, so I won't
waste any more time on it.

George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!rw7.urc.tue.nl!wsadjw
From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Dates (Re: UFOs and Abductees)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 06:57:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <l65b3#[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14376 alt.alien.visitors:1941

In article <l65b3#[e-mail]# [e-mail] writes:
#It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets.
#To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever)
#of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is:
#
#1) A thought held by many unintelligent people.
#2) A defiance of all staticians hold to be true.
#

An anologous reasoning:  To think that of the about half million dates
in human history this is the only one that reads September 6, 1991 AD is:

[obvious faulty derogatory choices deleted]

When you want to apply probability theory, you must have a more or less
reliable model.  Now the experiment "intelligent life on planet" has to
our knowledge only been performed once. That's not enough to base a
probabilistic argument on.

We may have by now a pretty good
idea about the probability of planet formation (but no planet has been
observed elsewhere), but if you think of the dinosaurs that ruled the earth
for about 200 million years without (to our knowledge) getting close to
what is termed "intelligence" by us, then it is not at all evident that
"intelligence" is a necessary or even remotely probable consequence of "life".

Summarizing: applying probability to argue either side of the
proposition "intelligent life exists" is a con game.

This discussion seems to appear in arguments related to UFOs, that are
supposedly coming from light years away to do silly things with
psychiatric patients and English wheat. If anything, it shows that using
technologically advanced machinery does not prove that one is
intelligent. But that's also old hat.


JWN
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: boy am i stupid!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 09:59:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 30

[e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes:

> boy, am i stupid. :) to Gary with the alien dreams, I MEANT to post "check
> out alt.dreams" <grin>.  Since he is already obviously IN
> alt.alien.visitors, I might add that what appears to be a dream could be
> reality. Exactly what kind of alien dreams are we talking about here?
>
>
> --
> Sara Gordon
> Northern Star 8 line BBS
> 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
> internet: [e-mail]
> uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
>     -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-

Well.. the post was for a friend, so I'm not sure exactely what his dreams were
like.  I'll ask and see what he says.

As for the name, not a problem.  :)

Gerry .. err.. Gary

PS: Did anybody out there see a movie called "Hanger 18"?  I remember see'ing
    it in the theatres, and noticed it was on my TV a couple of months ago.
    Not exactely the greatest film but it was still interesting.

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!decuk.uvo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 11:18:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 16


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes...
>Please, would you care to elucidate? :)
>--

They are mostly about being on board ship... some are more interesting than
others.  One was about leaving our home planet and another was about coming
to Earth.  Other's were about visiting other planets and kinds of life
forms.  They were pretty interesting dreams actually.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 15:21:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14384 alt.alien.visitors:1944
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 5 Sep 91 21:50:12 GMT

World:

Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge?  Today,
so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the
use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data.

--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | Whenever we read the obscene stories, the
Field Robotics Center,          | voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and
Carnegie Mellon University      | torturous executions, the unrelenting
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | vindictiveness, with which more than half
[phone]                  | the bible is filled, it would seem more
                                | consistent that we called it the word of a
                                | demon than the Word of God.  It is a
                                | history of wickedness that has served to
                                | corrupt and brutalize mankind...
                                | Thomas Paine
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 16:16:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 26
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

[e-mail] writes:

>
> >--
>
> They are mostly about being on board ship... some are more interesting than
> others.  One was about leaving our home planet and another was about coming
> to Earth.  Other's were about visiting other planets and kinds of life
> forms.  They were pretty interesting dreams actually.
>
> ---
> Mary Stanley
> ---

Would you care to describe the external part of the ships, and if you saw
any living creatures in the dream, describe  them  too. Also, if you dreamt
of any planets clearly enough to see the architecture, could you describe
that too please?

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!cynic!tz!duckbenw
From: [e-mail] (Duck Benway)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: End of the World
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 14:50:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Somewhere in The Twilight Zone, Van, B.C
Lines: 12


[e-mail] (Viki Goff) writes:

> Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors:
(other stuff deleted)

> New agers... you better quit channeling evil spirits or you will
> be destroyed. Satan is a whole lot smarter than you are.
>

Why only yesterday, while having lunch with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth
Fairy, I was saying the very same thing.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pmafire!
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Later)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mutilations
Keywords: mutilate
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 16:05:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: J.B. Later
Distribution: na
Organization: WINCO
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the
>public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations.

>While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up
>photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had
>happened 10 days before.   It is continuing  ....


Here's another "Fedex pouch" for you:  This was in last night's,(9/5/91),
Idaho Falls, Idaho newspaper:

"Donnelly Valley County authorities are puzzled by the bizarre death of a horse
found mutilated in a pasture near Donnelly.  The 14- year old mare was found
last Friday lying on its side.  All of its blood had been drained.  The animal's
neck and lips had been cut cleanly.  No drops of blood or tracks were found
around the carcass and there were no signs of gunshot wounds......."

"The incident is the latest in a series of animal mutilations in Idaho, across
the country and in other parts of the world, said Linda Moulton Howe, a former
Boise resident, who has investigated the subject for 11 years......."


 _____________________________________________________________________________
||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||
||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA   ([e-mail]) |    "I have become        ||
||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** |   comfortably numb"      ||
||                                                |      Pink Floyd          ||
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 18:11:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>outside some kind of shack and talking about the beauty of three moons in
>the sky at once.
>_______________________________________________________________________

I remember a dream like that too I think, Jason.  Most of mine though are
about the ship... as if I've been onboard the ship for so long that the
ship has become my home.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 18:12:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 19


>
>Cooper seems to think (correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) that when the secret
>government takes over, that all implanted earth humans will be used by
>them, and they greys, to control the rest of the populace.

"The best laid plans of Greys and men, so often go astray" :-)

In other words... if *we* are not alone in the universe, then chances are..
... neither are the Greys.

They may have a surprise or two in store themselves.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Symbols inside UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 18:12:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 19


>
>> Does anyone know of any resources which contain pictures or descriptions
>> of any symbols purported to be seen inside UFOs or on UFO retrieved
>> material?  For instance, the symbols said to be have seen inside the
>> Roswell saucer.
>
>    Yes.


Can you post some of them for us, Dave?  I'd appreciate seeing them.

Mary
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 18:13:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 16


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes...
>
>Any ideas? I always figured it was just a nightmare but left an impression on
>me for years.
>

Could be a genetic race memory, Steve.  I'll bet it's happened before
somewhere... in some time stream...

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser
From: [e-mail] (Steve Reiser)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 18:27:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <l65b3#[e-mail]>
Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14405 alt.alien.visitors:1952

In article <l65b3#[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets.
>To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever)
>of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is:

That would be quite an absurd belief.  Please explain how you came to
such a conclusion based on the original article which merely stated a
lack of concrete evidence.  It would boggle my mind, if it could be
somehow found and verified that we were the only intelligent life (beam
me up Scotty) in the Universe.  There almost certainly is, however, we
have not made any direct publicly known contact with such entities.
>1) A thought held by many unintelligent people.
True.
>2) A defiance of all staticians hold to be true.
True.

Steve




--
Steve Reiser ([e-mail] or !uunet!pmafire!reiser)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser
From: [e-mail] (Steve Reiser)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 19:04:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14410 alt.alien.visitors:1953

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>World:
>
>Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge?  Today,
>so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the
>use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data.

No.   This is the same Steve who has posted all along.



Steve

--
Steve Reiser ([e-mail] or !uunet!pmafire!reiser)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!datum.nyo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 20:30:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 47


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes...
>
>Would you care to describe the external part of the ships, and if you saw
>any living creatures in the dream, describe  them  too. Also, if you dreamt
>of any planets clearly enough to see the architecture, could you describe
>that too please?

My dreams were all of the inside... the closest I got to the outside of
the ship was an observation deck that circled the entire ship.  It was
totally transparent from the inside... like a two way mirror.. it even
had benches and a fountain.  At that point, we were based on Earth
and all I could see outside was ice and snow... ice and snow.

The living creatures looked like me actually... like regular people.
The corridors and sleeping quarters were very simple... some kind of
grey material.. it glowed with a dim diffuse light... the corridors
were long.. there were classrooms where we learned about the cultures
and customs.

Of the places we went... they weren't all planets in space...
Some were...

In one dream, Jarrick and I walked down a long, grey corridor until we
reached a door.

He opened the door and outside was a universe that was all
made of light... beautiful, bright and beautiful.. colored light.
He asked me if I was ready and I backed against the wall because I
was afraid to step outside.. I had never gone without a body before.

He said that he thought I was ready and asked if I'd go if he went
with me...   I took his hand and we stepped outside and... suddenly
I didn't have a body.. I was made of light.  I could hear Jarrick's
voice in my mind as always though... not having a body didn't make
any difference.  He asked if I was ok and I said I was.. just a little
freaked out.  As I settled down, I gradually grew to realize that
the other lights were separate individual beings... and they were
laughing at me. :-)  ... that was a GREAT dream.. I really liked
that one.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Sep 91 21:41:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 47

>     I would very much like to hear the reasoning behind your statement that
>     if an alien culture could master interstellar travel, then they would
>     have no problems with respect to food or medicine.
>
>     Thanks - Brian

1) compare the complexity of food production to that of space travel
One human can farm, perform breeding experiments, or develop a vaccine, but
how many does it take to develop anything more than the simplest of water or
aircraft?  Even Noah had help with the ark.  I am assuming that it is easier
to deal with things with which one is familiar.  Food and health are of
immediate concern, travelling the infinite voids of space is not.

2) note all of the precautions against possible contaminants taken by the
lunar missions.  War of the Worlds is hilarious because the aliens are so
clever to build all their ships and weapons and then fail to keep our
atmosphere out of them.  What, weren't there any bacteria where they come
from?  How did their airlocks survive the long trip through space?  Ok, now,
here we have these grays and nords running around without any protection --
if they can handle all of our germs so successfully, they probably got that
skill from being able to first handle the ones that they evolved alongside.
Furthermore, the only way we'd serve as useful medicinal sources is for our
biology to be sufficiently close to theirs, so why travel hundreds of
light-years when you can just do it at home?  Would you like to suggest that
their animal-rights activists successfully prevented them from using their
analog of the rat?  Why would they then tolerate the use of us?

3) Which is easier, performing population control, or searching a
practically infinite universe for a planet which meets the long list of
requirements that your species has for survival (much less prosperity)?
Pop.ctrl-- food req: 0, structural req: minimal, technology: low-medium,
time req: low, chance of success: >95%
Planet prospecting-- food req: lots, structural req: lots, technology:
high/very high, time req: very high, chance of success: <5%
We can't even detect any planets outside our own solar system, except maybe
for one orbiting a pulsar 350 (million?) light-years away. (As an aside, can
anyone tell me how far one of our TV transmissions will travel before the
signal strength falls below that of the background radiation of the cosmos?)

Well, this will have to do for now.  I have to finish cleaning my apartment;
Semjase really hates it when I leave empty beer bottles on the coffee
table :-)
--
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx
"From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 06:59:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

Mary Stanley---could you describe if you would the beings that were made of
light? thank you!

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ufos And Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 04:16:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 29


 > In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one
 > shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified
 > flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings.
 > To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the
 > subject.  Many astounding stories have been published since World War
 > II, yet not one concrete piece of evidence has come forth to verify that
 > the supposed intellignetly guided crafts exists.  The same goes for the
 > stories of people being abducted.  If individuals have been abducted
 > what evidence is there that they are not making it up. (Lie detector
 > tests, separate interviews of those claiming to have shared an
 > experience, etc.)

Yes, but what would it take to convince you that sightings represent a
phenomena which should be studied?  Unfortunately, there is nothing in the way
of hard evidence other than some scraps of UFOs which have allegedly blown up.
Scientific study yielded that the material was not uncommon to this Earth.
On the same note, there have been some very good landing trace cases studied
around the world, particularly in France.  Although this does not lead
conclusively to evidence of where they come from, it leaves a large question
open as to what they are, and that UFOs in their most mundane definition do
exist.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 04:11:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 15


 > "CETK"????  Please forgive me.  I live in Idaho, where we are still
 > getting
 > re-runs "My Favorite Martian"!  I am not familiar with this film.  Is it
 > a
 > recent release?  When was it made, and is it out on tape yet??

Forgive the shoptalk.  CETK is Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 10:10:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>I laugh whenever I see this kind of stuff.  Semjase, during some of the 135
>physical contacts that she had with Edward `Billy' Meier in Switzerland in
>the mid `70's described how we, on earth only have 3500 to, maybe 8500
>(if you read Sitchen) years history.  They, on the other hand, have a
>history that they can study that goes back 22 million years to the Lyran
>star system.  Since about 1/3 of the population on this planet are
>ancestors or descendants of the Pleiadeans, then this is, essentially
>our history as well.  Basically, to make a 22,000,000 year story short,
>230,000 years ago they came from the Orion Polarity Wars to the planet
>that is now the asteroid belt as well as Mars.  Well, they blew away one
>planet, blew the atmosphere off Mars and came here creating Lemuria and
>Atlantis.  These too were destroyed after about 35,000 years of peace.
>But, don't worry, the same entities that did all this destruction are
>now incarnate on planet earth as the secret government and economic
>powers.  Will history repeat itself?
>


Quel un croc du merde!



--
---------------------------------------------------
Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services,
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
Tel [phone]  ||  [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 10:26:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 19

>**********************************************************************
>H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of
>the Comet.  And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as
>a possible Reptoid invasion?

Has anyone read 'My contact with flying Saucers' by DINO KRASPEDON,
it was published sometime in the late sixties, gave details on how UFO's
flew and also contained a chapter about a planetoid heading for the solar
system around the turn of the millenium!

We may end up with two moons if this planetoid passes earth on the correct side
otherwise we will be in for trouble......so says DINO.


--
---------------------------------------------------
Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services,
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
Tel [phone]  ||  [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: T. L. Rampa
Keywords: Rampa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 03:10:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 41

[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

> **********************************************************************
>   After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I
>   discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not
>   respond.  I hope this has been fixed.  Please let me know if you
>   get this.  I will repost about nine articles that I did previously.
> **********************************************************************
>
> [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS) writes:
>
> >        T. Lobsang Rampa? Wasn't he that Englishman who claimed to be a
> > Tibetan holy man? Once wrote that "Einstein, and people like Einstein, said
> > that the earth was flat?" That Lobsang Rampa?
>
> <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:
>
> > Didn't I once read somewhere that he was in fact an English accountant
> > with a fertile imagination? Anyone know the scoop?
>
> T. Lobsang Rampa was a walk-in.  If you take the time to read his books, he
> states quite clearly that the entity that inhabited the body to begin with,
> left, and he, a Tibetan monk, entered.  He has written a plethora of books.
> This guy was a walk-in BEFORE the word `walk-in' was coined.  He also says
> that the original guy's wife was none too happy about the rather dramatic
> personality switch.  Oh well ...
>
> -------------------
>   David W. Jones
>   [e-mail] OR
>   uunet!wrs!davidj
> -------------------

Check out Martin Gardner's book "The New Age: Notes of a Fringe watcher" for
further relevant info on Rampa.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 02:54:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14450 alt.alien.visitors:1962

[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:

> World:
>
> Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge?  Today,
> so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the
> use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data.
>
> --
> Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | Whenever we read the obscene stories, the
> Field Robotics Center,          | voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and
        He's been channelling a superior intelligence, obviously. (Hasn't
quite got the atheist/agnostic division bit knocked yet, so it can't be THAT
superior.)


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 16:13:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-)

Well I'm not with the government, nor am I a net.pinhead, but I could swear
that I've never read anything that implied that the Mare Crisium bridge is
still visible, other than that article.  Nevertheless as I said in a recent
article I'm going to try to check it out sometime.

>I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in
>orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I
>know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the
>Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to know
>some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such.

Is this reliable source the channeler or the government?  If the former,
I'm still not convinced that most channeled information isn't coming from
the channeler's own head.  If the latter, how do you know they're not doing
the Bennewitz thing to YOU now?  :-)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!towers!npal!sbrant
From: sbrant@uucp
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <84@uucp>
Date: 7 Sep 91 20:37:13 GMT
Organization: PalNet - (Indy) New Palestine, Indiana
Lines: 1

test please ignore.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!talon!orstcs!jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU!woodc
From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Opinions
Message-ID: <1991Sep08.122209.27201@[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Sep 91 12:22:09 GMT
Sender: @[e-mail]
Organization: C.S. Dept, Oregon State University, Corvallis
Lines: 87
Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu


  Well, it has been quite some time since I have contributed anything to this
newsgroup, so I thought that I would bless you all (ha ha) with my opinions
about the universe. Once again, these are *only* my views. If you have have
any critisism, please be polite... I hate smart-ass remarks and 'know-it-all'
attitudes.

  The universe, by my definition, is a set of lines of a finite or infinite
number (quantity isn't all that important right now) in which matter can
exist on. As an illustration, imagine a universe that consists of an infinite
number of these lines running along an X, a Y, and a Z axis (3 dimensional).
With this in mind, there are basicly two ways to define matter: 1) Matter
is an anomaly existing somewhere along a single line. 2) Matter IS the
juncture between these lines. (Or you could also think of it as a cross
between these two definitions, that matter is an anomaly that exists and
can only exist at the jucture of the lines running along the X,Y, and Z axis')
These 'anomalies' may be thought of as waves or ripples along a line (from
this point on I will try to refer to these 'lines' as 'threads'). For now I
will assume that matter is an anomaly that only exists at the juncture of
these threads that run along various axis'. This idea somewhat fits in with
the string theory of matter. I do not wish to go into discussing the 'string
theory' specificly right now, so we'll move along.
  If these lines do exist and if they could be manipulated, then they could
be used to defeat the great 'light-speed' barrier. If you think about the
definition for speed, you find that it's the distance traveled over a period
of time. But what if you have the power to change the distance between two
points? Then you can travel at seemingly greater than light-speed. Exactly
how you would manipulate these threads, I do not know. But it is my belief
that it is possible. If you were to sever these threads at certain locations
and then 'bend' these threads so that you have one set of threads that form
a doughnut shape and that the other set of severed thread join together to
bridge the gap, then you would accomplish two things at the same time. The
first usefull thing that you would accomplish is that the matter that occupied
the space that 'bent' into a doughnut shape would seemingly vanish from this
universe (this sounds amazingly like the Philidelphia Experiment and the
phenomenon associated with the Bermuda Triangle) and into it's own little
'pocket'. The second thing that you would accomplish is a reduction in the
distance between what was on side A of the section of space that has been
'removed' and whatever was on side B. As an illustration, let's assume that
the universe does exist in a perfectly cubical universe (that there are
an X,Y, and a Z axis all perfectly perpendicular to each other) and that
our moon at one given point in time were to exist exactly 100,000 'units'
away from us in the X axis with our current location occupying coordinates
0,0,0 , then if we were to sever the threads that run along the X axis
with the first X axis coordinate to be severed being coordinate #1 and the
second coordinate to be severed being coordinate #99,999, then we would
have succeeded in ruducing the distance between our present location on
Earth and the moon down to a distance of 2 'units' and we would have also
succeeded in puting whatever occupied the other 99,998 'units' of space into
a 'pocket'.
  As support for my belief that these lines exist, consider this; Light
supposedly slows down to just under the 'speed-of-light' when it enters
a gravitational field, and then supposedly returns to light-speed once
it leave the gravitational field (sorry, I don't have references handy).
(If you want to get technical, light never really leaves a gravitational
field, but I think you get the idea). Anyway, this doesn't seem logical
that a particle would slow down and then speed up again without the influence
of some other particle. But then again, think about the definition of speed.
Perhaps the light particle never slowed down, but the distance that it had
to travel (in raw 'units') had increased per area of what we perceive as
distance. Assuming that gravity and magnetism are based on the same idea
as these threads, then you might envision a gravitational field as being
an alteration of the 'distances' between the junctures of these threads.
The *true* distance of space would be measured by the number of junctures
per area of what we perceive distance to be (inches, feet, meters, etc..).
If a gravitational field were to compress the 'distances' between these
junctures, and if matter can only exist at these junctures, then a light
particle would have more junctures to cross in a given period of time
in what we perceive space to be, thus light appears to reduce velocity when
it enters a gravitational field.
  Another interesting possibility if these threads do exist is that
parallel universe can exist in the same perceived space as our own
universe. A parallel universe would consist of the same type of threads
arranged in the same fashion, but not having any junctures with the
threads that make up this universe.

  I have many other thoughts on this matter, but I think that's enough
for now. Once again, these are only my opinions, not neccessarily fact.
No one is responsible for the contents of this posting other than myself.
Any similarities between my opinions and anyone else's opinions is
purely coincidental.

--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!msi.umn.edu!math.fu-berlin.de!fub!einoed!aball![e-mail]!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ???
Summary: free energy technology
Keywords: free energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Sep 91 17:17:08 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix
Lines: 64
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1966 alt.paranormal:2911


Inventor Troy Reed claims Magnetic Motor to be a free energy source !


Hi,

I just got the video tape of the Troy REED Magnetic Motor Company from
Tulsa Oklahoma, which showed a demonstration of their Magnetic Motor.

Looks pretty impressive !

Mr. Reed is starting the Motor, a four cylinder crunkshaft supported
magnetic design, by a car-battery supported  12 Volts DC motor and is
feeding the output of his Magnetic Motor into a 110 Volts AC generator(mecha-
nicly via a belt). With his 110 Volts output-power generator he also feeds
some appliances like a drill machine or some bulbs or is lightning a chrismas
tree.
There is also a converter hooked onto the 110 Volts output that converts
the 110 Volts AC to 12 Volts DC. With this "Battery charger" he is powering
his starter motor and the car battery so that the car battery is recharged
again.
In operation the Reed Magnetic Motor is running at about 300 to 500 rpm,
dependend on the crankshaft unit he is using.

At this rpm the starter motor works as a generator and also delivers power
back to the 12 Volts car battery !


In this demonstration tape it was claimed this is a free energy device.

Now my question: Has anybody from Tulsa or somewhere else from the US al-
ready seen a longer demonstration of the operation of this motor ?


So this is a first summary of my first impression on the REED Magnetic Motor.
Anyway, if You netlanders out there have had a better chance to see it yet,
please let me know.

-Stefan Hartmann.

P.S.: Here comes the adress of the Reed Magnetic Company for those of You
who might want to contact them:
Reed Magnetic Motor Inc.
9503 E. 55th Place
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74145, USA
mailing adress:
P.O.Box 471613
Tulsa, OK 74147-1613, USA
Phone: [phone]

They charge 15 US$ for the tape + shipping cost.




--

*******************************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:                           *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]    or  [e-mail]           *
*  COMPUSERVE: 72017,3216      GEnie: S.HARTMANN                              *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79                   *
*  Phone II : ++49 30 721 94 66    FAX II: ++ 49 30 721 56 92                 *
********************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack
Subject: Re: MUFON Application
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Sep 91 21:49:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sorcerer's Apprentice Cleaning Services
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:6921 alt.alien.visitors:1967 alt.slack:1180

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
] Can anyone tell me how to get an application to the locasl MUFON chapter?
] I live in the Pleasonton, California area.

Just a few miles up the road from you is an organization with a
barbed-wire fence around its campus, 3-foot-diameter lasers, and a
5-story high abandoned magnet.  If they don't know the real story,
know body around does......

And don't let them tell you any stories about the field of rotating
sculptures with cattle underneath their fast-moving blades being for
"electrical research" - it's clearly a signal to .... them.
--
                Pray for peace;      Bill
# Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M-312 Holmdel NJ
# "After all, the 'good of society' is based upon the 'rights of the individual.'
# Not the other way around, IMHO." -- Chris Preston
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 03:59:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:2920 sci.energy:5963 sci.environment:10155 sci.physics:12992 sci.skeptic:14514 alt.alien.visitors:1968
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

That *definately* seems like it would not work, due to the conservation
of energy law (and the is no chance for mass to energy conversion) here.

I heard of something called the Newman motor, which uses high voltage
spikes nad induction effects (something about cutting off current to a
coil, getting the voltage spike,  but doing in such a way that the mass
of the elctrons goes to energy) This seems more possible, but I am not
at all sure that it works.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sugar!rperkins
From: [e-mail] (Rodney Perkins)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Attention all "fringe" groups
Keywords: Looking for "fringe" groups to partcipate in possible convention
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 08:10:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sugar Land Unix -- Houston, TX
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:6930 alt.alien.visitors:1969


    I am in the thinking stages of organizing a sort of "fringe" convention
here in Houston. In this way, I mean UFO groups, non-popular religious
organizations, conspiracy theorists, etc. For the moment, though, I am
interested in corresponding with anyone who thinks they might be
interested in participating in such an event. I welcome all mail and
correspondence. Especially interested in MUFON, Subgenius types, and
conspiracy theorists (no quasi-Nazis, though).

--
Rodney Perkins ([e-mail])
"Post-Logic defies all logic"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 13:50:48 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 5
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:2926 sci.energy:5969 sci.environment:10157 sci.physics:12997 sci.skeptic:14522 alt.alien.visitors:1970


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes...
>I heard of something called the Newman motor

        This has already been debuncked ad a fraud.  for get it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aro
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Ormsby)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop circles are a hoax.
Summary: Bower and Chorley did it.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 13:34:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Andrew Ormsby)
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: CS Dept, University College of Wales, Aberystwyth
Lines: 94
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14528 alt.paranormal:2930 alt.alien.visitors:1971

Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.

The perpetrators are Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, both in their
sixties. They've been creating circles for 13 years.

Some quotes from the newspaper articles:

"Corn circle expert Patrick Delgado [author of 'Circular Evidence' and
'The Latest Evidence'] admitted last night 'We have all been conned.
Thousands of lives are going to be wrecked over this'."

"The mystery of the corn circles -- which has baffled experts for more
than a decade -- is today exposed as nothing more than a hoax by two
artists.

"After a week-long investigation, we can reveal that Douglas Bower and
David Chorley, two men in their 60s, have been successfully fooling
the experts for years.

"And last night, they destroyed the myths that have built up around
the strange circles, which have been appearing in corn fields since
the late Seventies.

"Under cross-examination, the two men have told a completely
consistent story of how they made the circles in fields across the
south of England.

"Every part of their evidence has stood up to scrutiny.

"Then TODAY secretly arrangesd for them to create the ultiate corn
circle design in a field in Kent.

"But the most damning evidence of all came when self-professed expert,
Pat Delgado examined the circle and said: 'In no way could this be a
hoax. This is without doubt the most wonderful moment of my research'.

"However, just hours before Mr Delgado's visit to the field, we had
watched as the two men had step-by-step demonstrated their method of
making the corn circles."

The rest of the article spends some time poking fun at Mr Delgado and
also explains how the two men constructed the circles. Each circle
pattern was meticulously planned in advance. They used two
planks of wood attached to some reins. They used the planks to lay the
corn down delicately in a circular process (starting from the centre
of the circle). They entered fields by following the tyre tracks of
tractors used for crop spraying. They used a wire sight on a baseball
cap to help them produce straight lines by sighting on objects on the
edge of the fields such as trees.

The article goes on to say:

"Amazingly, the entire scam was dreamed up by two men in a pub.

"Doug said: 'I lived in Australia from 1958 to 1966 and during that
time there were a few circles farmers put in crops in Queensland as a
joke."

After meeting in a pub, they decided on making some circles as "a bit
of a laugh". They started off with simple circles and built up from
there once there started to be some publicity.

    "Then all of a sudden, we saw an article in the local paper
and then articles in the national papeers and we knew we had done it.

    "We heard this bloke Delgado had reported them -- this was the
first time we had heard of him.

    "When we heard he had worked at NASA in Australia we were even
more pleased. He started saying they had been done by a "superior
intelligence" -- we liked the sound of that. We laughed so much that
we had to stop the car and pull into a lay-by...".

"The circles at Cheesefoot Head were described as "sensational" in
Delgado and Andrew's book, Circular Evidence. It was important, they
said, theat there were no well-defined tramlines nearby. But Doug and
Dave had simply used their high-stepped loping walk to get through the
corn. Later they became less careful. 'Even if we were clumsy and
caused a mess, they were so keen on dismissing that humans had done it
that they explained it away by saying "Oh the first onlooker must have
done that"' Doug said."

The article ends by saying that the newspaper paid no money for the
story.

-----

Further comment seems unecessary.


Andy Ormsby
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Mars Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 13:04:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 11

Has there been any progress with respect to the Martian face and other
structures?

Also, would a pyramidal structure be capable of focusing gravity waves?


--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 18:32:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14549 alt.paranormal:2934 alt.alien.visitors:1973


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.

    I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
    in Asia, Canada, and America.

  Peter R. Cook        | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
  Digital Equip. Corp.  +--------------------------------------------------
  Marlboro, MA.         |  "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome
  508-467-6936          |   to the 90's where the government's your mother!"

~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~
~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 19:17:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 25


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sara Gordon) writes...
>Mary Stanley---could you describe if you would the beings that were made of
>light? thank you!

Well, Sara... they were made of light, you know? .... I mean... each
individual color was really a specific individual, intelligent, entity....
they had personality and individual characteristics... but it took awhile to
figure that out... to get used to the 'medium' (to coin a phrase)... to get
accustomed to that form of existence.

It was really a great way to be... I loved it.  It felt really exciting
and beautiful and interesting.  No body ..so no gross sensual experiences
but ... an awareness of how things 'felt' anyway... the language was
telepathic but you 'heard' it .. just as if you had ears or as if you could
hear it in your mind (as if you had a physical mind).

    .... and they certainly had a sense of humor ... they thought I
was a riot! :-)
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ufos And Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 19:17:49 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 22


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes...
>
>Yes, but what would it take to convince you that sightings represent a
>phenomena which should be studied?  Unfortunately, there is nothing in the way
>of hard evidence other than some scraps of UFOs which have allegedly blown up.
>Scientific study yielded that the material was not uncommon to this Earth.
>On the same note, there have been some very good landing trace cases studied
>around the world, particularly in France.  Although this does not lead
>conclusively to evidence of where they come from, it leaves a large question
>open as to what they are, and that UFOs in their most mundane definition do
>exist.
>

The crop symbols are "hard evidence", Mike

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 20:03:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.energy:5976 sci.environment:10160 sci.physics:13004 sci.skeptic:14580 alt.alien.visitors:1976 alt.paranormal:2945
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Frank T Lofaro) writes...
>>I heard of something called the Newman motor
>This has already been debuncked ad a fraud.  for get it.

Are you talking about when the patent office declared it a fraud even
though they insisted on grounding the device, which, according to the
theory of operation, would not allow it to work?

P.S. I admit the the reed Magnetic motor is almost certainly a fraud,
but the Newman motor was featured in a large circulation scientific
magazine (Discover, I believe). I restated the points that they made in
regard to it about the grounding. I am not 100% sure either way whether
the Newman motor does or does not work.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!ebraeden
From: [e-mail] (Eric W Braeden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Mars Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 21:55:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>Has there been any progress with respect to the Martian face and other
>structures?
>
>Also, would a pyramidal structure be capable of focusing gravity waves?
>
>
The answer to the second question is: NO! It would me nice if such
were possible but if you stick to REAL physics, the shape would make
no difference at all......Isn't there an e-mail address for Hoagland's
group?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Alan_M_Paul
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Sep 91 23:08:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 1
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14599 alt.paranormal:2951 alt.alien.visitors:1978

Unnecessary, indeed ....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Summary: HOAX?
Keywords: HOAX?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 13:01:10 GMT
Lines: 21

Well, this morning on CBS THis Morning, they had another update of the two
people confessing to the wheat circles, showing with thwir rectanguar shaped
bar-board things that the set up going around in circles etc. The people that
watched them do it for a demonstration then compared them with others in
other fields. They did not match. I just think these guys figured a cool way
to _imitate_ these. As said before, their confession does not make up for the
ones found in Canada, United States, Asia, etc.. I think they have even been
some in Australia (?).

I don't buy it.

Chuckie

dn
--

 +------------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet:      [e-mail]        \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:        [e-mail]         >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans       //    --------------------
 +------------------------------------------//         --------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 13:38:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.energy
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.energy:5984 sci.environment:10168 sci.physics:13021 sci.skeptic:14648 alt.alien.visitors:1980 alt.paranormal:2969


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes...
>[e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Frank T Lofaro) writes...
>>>I heard of something called the Newman motor
>>This has already been debuncked ad a fraud.  for get it.
>
>Are you talking about when the patent office declared it a fraud even
>though they insisted on grounding the device, which, according to the
>theory of operation, would not allow it to work?
>
>P.S. I admit the the reed Magnetic motor is almost certainly a fraud,
>but the Newman motor was featured in a large circulation scientific
>magazine (Discover, I believe). I restated the points that they made in
>regard to it about the grounding. I am not 100% sure either way whether
>the Newman motor does or does not work.


        The Newman motor was never proven by Newman to work or do what he
        claimed.  His  demonstration  looked  good but when asked to show
        the internal workings of  the  system he clamped down and refused
        to let anyone get near it.  There was a big discussion about this
        in the physics files here at  DEC  and  on  the  other  networks.
        After about two months nothing was every  heard  again  about the
        Newman  motor.    If  I remember the discription  of  the  system
        correctly  (This was over a year ago maybe two)  suspisions  were
        raised  because it looked like some wiring was coming up  through
        the floor from the basement to the motor.  Newman when asked just
        remainded very secretive.    So  everyone  just  shruged and went
        away.

        When ever I see  some  report  of a perpetual motion machine like
        the Newman Motor I just  shrug and say "we'll see." If Newman and
        others have such fantastic machines why aren't they in production
        right now?  "Well the oil companies  stop  it" you say.  Ya right
        and if you believe that I have a  face  on  Mars I will sell you.
        Like  the Newman motor or the Cold Fusion announcments  they  all
        should be taken with a grain of salt.

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!cmc127
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 19:40:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 7

I was wondering if anybody had the same recurring dream that I've had-

        It's almost as if I'm listening in on a conversation, but as soon as I
   try to say something, whoever's on the other end suddenly becomes very quiet
   almost as if I wasn't supposed to be able to hear the conversation.  The
   weird part about this is that there are images which accompany the voices
   and the voices are in bursts rather than any vocalized speech.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Keywords: HOAX?
Message-ID: <h#[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 21:39:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister) writes:
>Well, this morning on CBS THis Morning, they had another update of the two
>people confessing to the wheat circles, showing with thwir rectanguar shaped
>bar-board things that the set up going around in circles etc. The people that
>watched them do it for a demonstration then compared them with others in
>other fields. They did not match. I just think these guys figured a cool way
>to _imitate_ these. As said before, their confession does not make up for the
>ones found in Canada, United States, Asia, etc.. I think they have even been
>some in Australia (?).
>
>I don't buy it.

Hmmm... the article in today's Detroit Free Press said it was the other
way around.  I quote:

"To prove their point, the men, aided by a London tabloid, fooled a
self-styled expert on the crop-circle phenomena who declared a pattern
found over the weekend in a Kent wheat field to be the genuine article,
of the sort no human could have made.
"Then, while the expert looked on in embarassment, the two -- described
by the newspaper Today as 'jovial con men in their 60s' -- gleefully
revealed themselves as the artists."

Later, the article says:

"'They called us 'superior intelligence' and this was the biggest laugh
of all,' said David Chorley, who carried out the scheme with Doug Bower.
Chorley was referring to speculation that the circles were so big and
geometrically precise that they must have been the work of alien
spacecraft."

Obviously, Chorley and Bower didn't create the crop circles that were
found elsewhere in the world, but I don't see why alien spacecraft are
the most likely explanation, given that we now know it's entirely possible
for people to create fancy crop circles.
Of course, I suppose Chorley and Bower could be part of a disinformation
campaign designed to hide the *true* origin of crop circles.  Moo hoo ha ha.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!nstar!sara
From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 00:10:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com

about the light people....
        did they sing to you in real high voices (if they did, you know what
it means...)

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ms6i+
From: [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: COVER-UP
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 00:39:27 GMT
Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 6

"Today" exposes corn circles as a hoax.

DON'T GIVE IN TO THE CONSPIRACY.
DON'T BELIEVE IT.
It's just another cover-up.
Another way to discredit any who might see through the propaganda.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 22:17:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA
Lines: 42



>Biblical prophesy indicates  that (using the 1948 date of Israel statehood as
>the time the clock starts t>  tick) that in 1992-3 a bad guy will show up
> in Europe to bring a false peace to the middle east (how did they know they
> 2000 years ago?) which would last for 3 1/2 years followed by 3 1/2 years
> of God knows what (hell most likely).
>
> H.G. Wells, who wrote a book called In the Days of
> the Comet.  And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as
> described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as
> a possible Reptoid invasion?
>
> Somewhere in all this are our space brothers/sisters who may help.
>
> 67% to 75% of the population will cease to exist.  The face of the earth
> will change (2/3s of Japan will go bye-bye, among other things), I've got
> a ton of info....

>  David W. Jones
>  [e-mail] OR
>  uunet!wrs!davidj
________________________


     I reallize that according to Biblical prophecy, one third of mankind
will be destroyed (Rev 9:18), and a third of the waters will become polluted
from a fallen star (asteroid maybe?), and a third of the creatures and a
third of the ships will die and be destroyed (Rev :9-10). But how and
where do you get these amazing stats specifically on Japan? Inquiring
minds want to know.  Also, did Nostro contradict himself ?  I'm not
sure on the exact dates, but did'nt he originally predict the start of
WW3 to be in 1999 (please correct me if this info is bogus) ?

     Anyway, if you have "a ton of info" I would like to borrow a pound
please. :-)

E-Mail
kevin_cyrus @hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com
Hewlett Packard
Vancouver Division
Vancouver Washington 98607
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!Rickie.A.Slater
From: [e-mail] (Rickie A. Slater)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 23:31:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

> Don,
>
> Thanks for posting those articles about DePalma and Tesla.
>
> I spent some time with DePalma at his house in Santa Barbara not too long ago.
> I was there (in his garage) with about 8 others and received a first-hand
> demonstration of his electrical free-energy device.
>

A question:

Did DePalma say why he is not marketing this device?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!liv-cs!liv!jpst55
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 18:56:27 GMT
Organization: University of Liverpool
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1987 alt.paranormal:2996 sci.skeptic:14735

Well it would seem that the cat is out of the bag.  According to the Today
newspaper 9 & 10 Sept. two artists have been creating the circles in the dead
of night for the last 13 years.  They've now decided to give it up because they
are "getting too old and it's gone too far."  The two hoaxers were it was repor
ted in the paper Today 10/9/91 showing to Pat Delgado how they carried out the
hoaxed circles.

The result of this confession remains to be seen, however just as Meaden's
theory was losing impetus because it could not cope with the increasing complex
ity of the circle/glyph/pictograms it would now seem that the vortex theory
remain as the only alternative to hoax.  The argument is that the simple circle
may be the result of vortices of air while the complex lines, triangle, and
mandlebrot were no doubt hoaxes!

Delgado, according to Andrews has decided the whole thing is over.  John Mich-
ell editor of the Cerealogist is sensibly waiting for a demonstration of the
hoaxing ability of Dave and Doug under test conditions. Which less likely to
occur so late in the season (D & D picked a good time to confess:)

Will we get anymore circles in the corn fields?  Will the hoax hypothesis be
proved to be the explanation we've all been waiting for?  Will this years books
on the subject arrive in the bookshops (its a cert that a new chapter will have
to be written quickly!!)  Who knows what will happen?


Carl Williams

Its got to be true if its in the paper!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ufos And Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 11:47:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> The crop symbols are "hard evidence", Mike
>

Is there much evidence connecting crop symbols to UFO's then? There have been a
hell of a lot of crop symbols in England - has there been a correspondingly
high rate of UFO sightings with good geographical correlation?

Ian
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: End of the World
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 15:03:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Viki Goff) writes:
>
>If all of these other folks can post outrageous stories and opinions,
>then why can't Christians speak what should be spoken!!!

Well, I for one am not happy about the New Age camp, the more outrageous
Lear-type stories, OR the Christians!  How's THAT for equal-opportunity
skepticism?  What this group needs is more facts and less rumor.

I'm not going to go into why this we're-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong
ideology irritates people (though I would have thought it obvious) because
this isn't the newsgroup for religious wars.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 15:05:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1990 sci.skeptic:14740

You don't need to quote entire articles to add three lines.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: crop circle confession a hoax?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Sep 91 15:22:37 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 48
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1991 sci.skeptic:14741

There was an AP report in the local paper today about two men who claim to
have been responsible for the rash of crop circles in England.    The
newspaper which reported it said that it had the men produce a circle and
then invited Delgado to look at it.  Delgado said, "No human could have
done this."  After being told the truth, he said it was "a great con and a
great dirty trick," and "I was taken for a ride like many other people.
But if it wasn't me who was duped, it would have been someone else later
on.  This was obviously a great joke lasting years, but somewhere or
another it would have been exposed."

However, this is where any resemblance to sanity ends, in my opinion.  The
article also says that the hoaxers "gave detailed information about how
they planned and executed each design since the late 1970s."  Either they
only meant the most elaborate and sensational designs and neglected to say
so, or the claim is stretching credibility.  We're talking about a *lot* of
circles for men in their 60s.  Furthermore, the newspaper makes the claim
that "the wheat was bent down rather than broken so farmers could still
harvest the crop."  I fail to see the difference, from a harvesting
standpoint, between bending it and breaking it.  I have also heard it
mentioned that the grain in which circles are formed is unharvestable.

But that is only half of the story.

I had hardly finished reading the newspaper when I saw the subject on the
news on a local ABC affiliate.    This report, unlike the AP report, did
mention that some people (I believe they even said some *scientists*)
didn't believe that the hoax theory was valid.  In fact, they interviewed
*Delgado* and he said that he didn't believe it!  What happened?  Damage
control, or just a delay in realizing that the hoax claims were unlikely?

It will be quite interesting to see how this develops in the next few days.
I hope we can get a report from Robert Trevelyan or someone else who lives
closer to the subject.    I suspect we won't hear any more about it from the
American media.

Trivia/Comic Relief/Hail Eris! Department:  Consider this.  The confession
apparently came about as a result of the hoaxers being upset that people
were making money selling books about the hoax.  However, the confession
apparently fails to account for all of the evidence for the phenomenon.
What other bothersome phenomenon and individual, loosely connected to
UFOlogy, does this resemble?  (This came to me after reading the article
about five times.)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!news
From:  (John Quiggin)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 06:45:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: ANU
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14746 alt.paranormal:3000 alt.alien.visitors:1992


>
> "Corn circle expert Patrick Delgado [author of 'Circular Evidence' and
> 'The Latest Evidence'] admitted last night 'We have all been conned.
> Thousands of lives are going to be wrecked over this'."
>
I read this in the newspaper, then heard Delgado on the radio claiming that
the English circle is an obvious hoax. Has he been nailed on this?
In particular, is it true that he went to the site and proclaimed it genuine
as stated in the original report? Any info appreciated.

BTW, other hoaxers have previously confessed in Germany and (I think)
elsewhere.

John Q
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 06:47:55 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14752 alt.paranormal:3002 alt.alien.visitors:1993

The Pleiadians are a group of entities from our future being channeled by
Barbra Marcinack.  They have been coming through for over three years and
are mainly on cassette tapes. A friend of mine went to the trouble of
transcribing two evening worth of tapes.  The transcripts present an
entirely new concept of god(s) and of humans.  I have found them to be
inspiring and uplifting. (Thought provoking:-)) to say the least. For me
they have given answers to many, many areas I could not find answers before.
I offered to send them email to folks about four months ago and 35 net
folks requested them.  So now that we have our new fall crop of net folks
I am again making the offer. They consist of six 30k files and a tape list.
I highly recommend that people who are religious do not ask for them as they
do not speak favorably towards religion.
The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible
so we will wake up and start creating our own reality by doing this we will
change our future and thereby change their reality.
Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 18:01:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 70

[e-mail] writes:

[[[many lines deleted]]]

>Sure.  And if we go by the idea that Christ was born on Dec 25, then

    I am sorry, but Jesus Christ was not born on December 25, its an old
   Catholic/Pagan thing. Jesus Christ was most probabley born early Sept.
   , i.e. Sept 7 or something around a feast.. as most things in the Bible
   happen during feasts. Or is that Sept 20 something. Anyway, by the
   context of Jesus's birth, its obviouisly not in the chill of Winter.

>that means that he was conceived (so to speak) on or about March 25,
>which is supposed to be a time of the year with great demonic influences.
>As for the authors of the Book of Revelations in the Bible, remember,
>the King James Version of the Bible was commissioned by King James of
>England in (1652?), not by James the brother of Jesus.  Also remember

      Commisioned in 1601,published 1611.

>that the Bible in those days (1600's I mean), took on whatever meaning
>and interpretation the church gave to it, so some of these 'significant'
>numbers and such may have had nothing to do with the original authors.

     Numbers are very very very important throughout the entire Bible.
     Numbers stand for things. Just as it rained for 40 days and 40 night
     in Noah's Flood, so was Jesus tempted 40 days and nights, and the Isr-
     aelites were in the wilderness for 40 years. etc. etc. 7 the number of
     perfection. 6 the number of man. 5 the number of death NOT grace.
     4 ? 3 the number of the trinity. 10 the number of Gentiles. 40 as you
     see the number of trials and tribulations. Etc. Numbers play a very
     large role in God's plan. 12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel.

>My information on this matter, by the way, comes from my uncle, who
>holds a Masters Degree in Theology, and studied the 'real original'

     NOT NOT NOT NOT. Time and time again, people claim to have seen/read/
     studied/etc/etc the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. People, they no longer
     exist. THey haven't since the early 200s. All are copies. [Sorry,
     I know this belongs on soc.religion.christian, but what the hey.].

>transcripts and scrolls from their original hebrew and greek.  In case
>you hadn't figured it out by now, my original posting was meant to be
>facetious.  It was trying to prove that anyone could seemingly make
>mystical observations about anything they wanted.

>>Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the
>>validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute
>>for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it
>>is more in line with our experience, is suspect.

>Why wouldn't St. John have used the Roman alphabet.  The Romans had
>quite an influence on people of that time period.  After all, they
>controlled most of the territory.

>Well enough bitching about the whole thing.  It's obvious you didn't
>get the subtle kick in the head from my original posting, so I won't
>waste any more time on it.

CHuck / [e-mail]

>George Newell
>[e-mail]
--

 +------------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet:      [e-mail]        \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:        [e-mail]         >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans       //    --------------------
 +------------------------------------------//         --------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!goanna!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre
From: [e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 08:22:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Lines: 30


Last night I had a dream which was very disorientating. I can't remember
much detail (didn't write it down) but I do know that the overall
feeling (overwhelming feeling !) was of being *beckoned* by what my
instincts told me was an *alien* intelligence. It was very lucid I guess
'cause I had the sensation of being awake at the time. What was strange
was a strong sense of fear which is quite unlike myself who has always
maintained a "oh wow, this should be good" type attitude to these
things. I could see (in my minds eye) a being not unlike what  others
would call a "grey" beckoning me with an index finger, and could hear
some kind of far away calling which I could not hear as *english* but
could understand (interpret ?) as calling me. This actually appeared to
be coming from inside my head rather than my ears. The feeling that they
had come for me and that they were alien was unbelievably strong and
seemingly without doubt on my part, though quite ah, intuitive. I found
it very scary (this surprised me a lot !) and had to wake myself up as
the fear (and the feeling) grew quite strong. I had a cigarette and
calmed down.....and the feeling they were "there" stayed with me for
5-10 mins, and then *faded* away and did not return and i went back to
sleep. Anyone care to comment. I am well aquainted with the paranormal
but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end
absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal.
                                          ciao, Geof.


--
  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
||       If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.       ||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:58:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <l65b3#[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14802 alt.alien.visitors:1996

In article <l65b3#[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets.
>To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever)
>of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is:

Except that we don't know that there are other planets, but the nine in
our own star system.  A ring has been dectected around one star some
years ago, and recently what may be a rather large gas giant planet (or
a small cool starlike object) was detected.  This is the only evidence
we have so far that planets may even form around other stars.

It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying
outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not
correct.  It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist
that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are
binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have
enough matter around them to form planets.  We don't have the last
number at all, merely wide ranging guesses.  Other numbers such as how
many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more
shakey.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:16:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14822 alt.paranormal:3013 alt.alien.visitors:1997

Well, this may be rather naive of me, but if these two guys have confessed to
being the culprits, and assuming that they aren't going to do it anymore, I'd
think that there number of crop circle incidents in the area would take a
nosedive...granted, others might attempt to 'take over the mantle', as it
were, but I kinda get the idea these jokers were fanatics.

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "I mean, foreign agent or no,  Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  I've done good work for the           Internet: [e-mail] --
--  city. I never compromised my          Austin: [e-mail] --
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 15:24:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>I have spoken with many `implanted' people.  Cooper, when visited by these
>people, and after some preliminary questions, will not let them into his house.
>A few months back, I was chatting with Bud Hopkins.  He indicated that he,
>personally, was involved with at least 3 people that have had these small
>round objects removed after a series of alien abductions.  They are being
>studied to determine what they are.  He also showed me photos of puncture
>marks above and to the front of the ear of a lady.  This implant was
>very difficult to get to.

This is *excellent* news, I had no idea there were that many implants
recovered.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 15:30:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of
>the Comet.  And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as
>described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as
>a possible Reptoid invasion?

There are asteroids crossing the earth's orbit, sometimes very close to us,
from time to time.  The special thing about the one due in 1992 is that
it's the first one detected before it got anywhere near us.  Normally we
only see them as they're going by or after they've passed.

I don't have the faintest idea where the Reptoid story got started, other
than the thing has supposedly been seen to change course.  I haven't heard
any sources for that claim.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")